America in Bible Prophecy

[BobRyan]

In Revelation 11 and 12 we see described the 1260 years of dark ages that would come to the christian church after the days of John the revelator.

In Rev 12 we see that the Church of God is pictured as existing in both Old and New Testament -- such that the incarnation of Christ comes from the Church of God pre-cross, in what we might call the O.T.

But as we see in Rev 12 - some time after Christ is taken up into heaven - the church is severely persecuted -- and specifically a 1260 year period of persecution is identified not only in Rev 11 but also in Revelation 12 and in Revelation 13.

But in Revelation 13 we are told that immediately after the dark ages ends (so after 1798 when the Pope is taken captive by France) a world power will arise having two horns as a lamb.

The symbol of a lamb identifies that new world power as a good one. The lamb symbol in the book of Revelation is always a good element in the picture being described.

Some have observed that America's lamb-like founding features are the Christian principles of religious liberty found in Protestantism as well as the departure from dictatorship/monarchy and acceptance instead of a republic -- republican form of government.

Hopefully we can retain those features a little while longer.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Johnv]

IMO, it's a crock. Revelation it not a book of predictions. Just about every prediction claim using Revelation as its source has turned out to be incorrect.

We should be preaching the first coming. Let the second coming worry about itself.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Sorry the US is not in the book of revelation. You took some work trying to get there but it doesn't make the cut.

 

[BobRyan]

IMO, it's a crock. Revelation it not a book of predictions. Just about every prediction claim using Revelation as its source has turned out to be incorrect.

We should be preaching the first coming. Let the second coming worry about itself.

Peter says to "Fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Paul says in Philipian 3 that we "wait EAGERLY" for that 2nd coming.

Paul says in Romans 8 that we "groan" with our waiting and longing for the resurrection at the coming of Christ. He repeats this in 2Cor 5:1-3 as being our great "longing".

Christ said "Let not your heart be troubled" in John 14 and then goes into great detail about his promised return.

In Rev 19 the much predicted 2nd coming event is seen.

In Rev 20 the much predicted Great White throne jugment and lake of fire is seen.

In Rev 21 the much predicted New Heavens and New earth is detailed in chapter-length detail.

In Rev 14 - the end of the world - the reaping of the saints, the judgment of the wicked is detailed.

In Matt 24 another entire chapter dedicated to the future events culminating in the 2nd coming with warning after warning by Christ not to be deceived. He includes the warning that just as we know to read the signs of nature pointing toward spring - so we are to know the signs of the time pointing to the coming of Christ "know that it is at the door".

Hence the book of Revelation.

And as Paul states in 2Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and IS profitable for doctrine".

I am going with the Bible on this one my friends.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

I think Revelation is a prediction of the future and uses elements from the past that foreshadow it as well (where it ties in with Daniel, for example).

I think as believers, we are to look forward with anticipation to the 2nd coming; this is stated throughout the NT in many places. It is how the Bible ends: Come quickly, Lord Jesus. The longer I am a Christian, the more I eagerly anticipate the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, I do not think the U.S. is in the book of Revelation; at least not explicitly.

 

[billwald]

A "lamb like" bloody civil war against a Christian sovereign?

 

[BobRyan]

I think Revelation is a prediction of the future and uses elements from the past that foreshadow it as well (where it ties in with Daniel, for example).

I think as believers, we are to look forward with anticipation to the 2nd coming; this is stated throughout the NT in many places. It is how the Bible ends: Come quickly, Lord Jesus. The longer I am a Christian, the more I eagerly anticipate the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, I do not think the U.S. is in the book of Revelation; at least not explicitly.

1. John was given a view of the future of the world - that included the many centuries of dark ages persecution of the Christian Church that we see in Rev 11 and 12 (this was also noticed in Daniel's vision of the future in Dan 7).

That 1260 time period ended in 1798 and is called prophetically 1260 days, 42 months, and also "Time Times and Half a Time" in the Bible (3.5 prophetic years of years). Both John and Daniel use the same day for a year principle that we find in Daniel 9 with the 70 weeks (490 years). Dan 9's day for year is a point where almost all denominations agree as it predicts the first coming of Christ.

2. Rev 13 points out that when that is over - a new world wide power will arise "out of the earth". In Rev 17 seas are used as a symbol for many cultures nations and peoples. In Rev 13 the new nation that arises to super-power status arises out of a non-sea, a relatively empty region as compared to the warring nations of Europe and the middle east - the way America came into being.

3. The Rev 13 power -- becomes a world wide power, but it arises with two lamb-like horns. Good qualities that some have attributed to Christian Protestant principles of freedom of religion and the 2nd horn being a republic form of government such as we find in America.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Johnv]

Peter says to "Fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Peter is referring to one's salvation. He's not referring to a future second coming of Christ.

Paul says in Philipian 3 that we "wait EAGERLY" for that 2nd coming.

Paul is referring to being with Christ upon our death. He is not referring to the Second Coming.

Paul says in Romans 8 that we "groan" with our waiting and longing for the resurrection at the coming of Christ. He repeats this in 2Cor 5:1-3 as being our great "longing".

They're passages referring to salvation.

Christ said "Let not your heart be troubled" in John 14 and then goes into great detail about his promised return.

Most of John 14 referrs to Jesus' pending ascension and the coming of the Holy Spirit.

and so on and so on. Sounds like you're misapplying scripture in several places out of some odd preoccupation with the end times. If you truly believe that the end is near, then feel free to cash out your retirement funds and blow it all. I myself will continue to plan for my retirement, and plan on dying an old man in my bed.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Peter is referring to one's salvation. He's not referring to a future second coming of Christ.

Paul is referring to being with Christ upon our death. He is not referring to the Second Coming.

They're passages referring to salvation.

Most of John 14 referrs to Jesus' pending ascension and the coming of the Holy Spirit.

and so on and so on. Sounds like you're misapplying scripture in several places out of some odd preoccupation with the end times. If you truly believe that the end is near, then feel free to cash out your retirement funds and blow it all. I myself will continue to plan for my retirement, and plan on dying an old man in my bed.

Yep I agree with your statment. I wonder about people who are preoccupied with eschatology. Specifically the rapture. Its like an obsession a dangerous one at that. How many people have hidden themselves away from the impending partial 2nd comming of christ? How many have sold all that they have because the rapture was immament? These people scare me. Not because of things about to happen but because how much of their lives are placed in jepardy because of this belief?

 

[BobRyan]

Peter says to "Fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Paul says in Philipian 3 that we "wait EAGERLY" for that 2nd coming.

Paul says in Romans 8 that we "groan" with our waiting and longing for the resurrection at the coming of Christ. He repeats this in 2Cor 5:1-3 as being our great "longing".

Christ said "Let not your heart be troubled" in John 14 and then goes into great detail about his promised return.

In Rev 19 the much predicted 2nd coming event is seen.

In Rev 20 the much predicted Great White throne jugment and lake of fire is seen.

In Rev 21 the much predicted New Heavens and New earth is detailed in chapter-length detail.

In Rev 14 - the end of the world - the reaping of the saints, the judgment of the wicked is detailed.

In Matt 24 another entire chapter dedicated to the future events culminating in the 2nd coming with warning after warning by Christ not to be deceived. He includes the warning that just as we know to read the signs of nature pointing toward spring - so we are to know the signs of the time pointing to the coming of Christ "know that it is at the door".

Hence the book of Revelation.

And as Paul states in 2Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and IS profitable for doctrine".

I am going with the Bible on this one my friends.

My point there is that having an interest in that which Peter said should be "our focus" is not simply a preference -- it is in obedience to a command of scripture that we also find in Matt 24 as noted above.

in 1Thess 5 Paul argues that many are completely taken by surprise in the end of time.

In 2Thess 2 Paul argues that without a love of the truth (i.e. always wanting more and always accepting rather than rejecting what you already have) people perish at the end of time.

Truths we probably all agree with - but then do not always take the time to think through the implications of those truths.

Which brings up an interesting question -- "how much of the Bible do you suppose is safe to ignore?"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Johnv]

... Which brings up an interesting question -- "how much of the Bible do you suppose is safe to ignore?"...

In other words, we have to apply scripture as you do, otherwise, we're "ignoring" scripture. That's a huge leap. Are you sure that's an inference you want to make? Because no one here is ignorign scripture.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't think Revelation is trying to predict in Nostrodamus fashion what is going to happen. To understand Apocalyptic literature you have to understand the genra. (spelling) Having read available 1st century literature I've noted that literature of this type it explains current events in a dramatic fashion. Political uphevals are related to by Catastrophies in natures such as stars falling from the sky etc... What is known of the last days is clear. Jesus comes again. He will judge the living and the dead. Jesus wins and Justice is despenced to all creation to include angels. There is a place for us in the following life and the trials of this one are over. It is also clear in parables and all teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that no one knows when all this will happen so be ready at all times. In otherwords don't waste time. Transform yourself into Jesus likeness and hold on to the faith. That is the essense of Revelation. Not rapture, anti christ, one world government, etc... So no scripture is ignored but taken in context with the intent of it.

 

[Marcia]

Yep I agree with your statment. I wonder about people who are preoccupied with eschatology. Specifically the rapture. Its like an obsession a dangerous one at that. How many people have hidden themselves away from the impending partial 2nd comming of christ? How many have sold all that they have because the rapture was immament? These people scare me. Not because of things about to happen but because how much of their lives are placed in jepardy because of this belief?

You are stereotyping imo. I believe in the rapture and I think eschatology is a valid subject but I am not obsessed with it nor is anyone I know who believes as I do.

I think many passages refer to the 2nd coming of Christ - some of which Bob Ryan pointed out. We are to eagerly expect His coming.

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly " Amen Come, Lord Jesus." Rev. 22: 12, 20

 

[Johnv]

Except that several of the passages he pointed out are not a reference to the second coming. He's misapplying them as such.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are stereotyping imo. I believe in the rapture and I think eschatology is a valid subject but I am not obsessed with it nor is anyone I know who believes as I do.

I think many passages refer to the 2nd coming of Christ - some of which Bob Ryan pointed out. We are to eagerly expect His coming.

How do you get Stereotyping with "I wonder". I'm saying I don't know and would like to know. You have to admit there is an obsession with it look at the books by Lehaye and Lindsay. I look foreward to Jesus return. I don't try to figure out how to place the US in prophesy nor do I look for the Anti Christ. Nor do I figure how many generations it has been since the founding of Israel.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are stereotyping imo. I believe in the rapture and I think eschatology is a valid subject but I am not obsessed with it nor is anyone I know who believes as I do.

I think many passages refer to the 2nd coming of Christ - some of which Bob Ryan pointed out. We are to eagerly expect His coming.

BTW I answer that last verse in post 12.

 

[Marcia]

How do you get Stereotyping with "I wonder". I'm saying I don't know and would like to know. You have to admit there is an obsession with it look at the books by Lehaye and Lindsay. I look foreward to Jesus return. I don't try to figure out how to place the US in prophesy nor do I look for the Anti Christ. Nor do I figure how many generations it has been since the founding of Israel.

Just because LaHaye's books were popular does not mean that everyone who believes in the rapture is obsessed with it. I just see a lot of posts on the BB by those who do not believe in the rapture and they are very hostile to those who do and tend to stereotype them. If I misread you, I'm sorry.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Just because LaHaye's books were popular does not mean that everyone who believes in the rapture is obsessed with it. I just see a lot of posts on the BB by those who do not believe in the rapture and they are very hostile to those who do and tend to stereotype them. If I misread you, I'm sorry.

Dear Marcia, I am not hostile towards people who believe in the rapture. I think there may be strong opinions contrary to it because it seems as though it is the most popular idea among christians. Those who don't agree with it may feel in the minority. So in order to be heard I guess those try to make their point without consideration. Though after seeing the movie "theif in the night" as a teenager anytime I was alone I thought I got left behind. Even though I accepted Jesus as my personal savior. Upon reflecton I don't think its a healthy train of thought to consentrate on it. Plus look at the groups that adapted this belief system primarily the SDA who are very legalistic.

 

[Johnv]

The problem, Marcia, is that militant rapture proponents tend to be zealous in their view, to the point of accusing those who do not concur with their interpretation as not believeing the bible. This is not most people who believe in the rapture, but it is a vocal many.

 

[Marcia]

The problem, Marcia, is that militant rapture proponents tend to be zealous in their view, to the point of accusing those who do not concur with their interpretation as not believeing the bible. This is not most people who believe in the rapture, but it is a vocal many.

Hmm... reminds of some other people who label themselves with a big "C."