America in Bible Prophecy

[BobRyan]

Daniel 12:1-3 deals with the resurrection of the saints.

And we find this on the day of the Crusifixion

On the Contrary - Christ said in Matt 24 to be on the lookout for the abomination of desolation predicted by Daniel - (in Dan 12 and in Dan 9).

He said of that future day and future persecution - that it would be unlike any that had gone before it.

In Daniel 12 says that the resurrection of the saints comes after the great persecution "such as has never been before".

Daniel 12
And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2"" Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.


Your method requires that we ignore too many of these details

==========

3. I have shown that in Matt 24 when the disciples ask Christ for the "signs of his coming" His answer was not "no sign shall be given".

Yes lets look at the signs of the age. Luke Chp 21
Quote:
8He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

As you note - both Matt 24 and Luke 21 point to some "common signs" that are not unique --

7 ""For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "" But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

I am going to stick with the Matt 24 account of the same subject as we see in Luke 21 for the sake of simplicity and consistency with my statements so far.

After referencing the "common signs" -- the ones you quote above -- Jesus points to the "singular signs".


21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


Jesus uses the same language as Daniel 12 - pointing to a future tribulation totally unlike anything before or after it.

The context of this discussion is that at the same time of Jesus and the Apostles there was Simon the Sorcerer who claimed to be like Jesus

Interesting. But a far more minor issue than the text is addressing.

In fact the Emperor Hadrian wiped out all the jews from palestine long after the 70 AD destruction and then made it illegal for Jews to live in Palestine -- for the next 500 years!

But more specific to Christ's warning in Matt 24 is not "Persecution of Jews" but rather "persecution" of the followers of Christ -- i.e. the dark ages which extended far beyond 500 years.

There were many centuries of dark ages brutal persecution ahead of the Christian Church -- and "God noticed" as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

I think you misunderstand me. These are extreme views given. They just happen to occur to me when I respond and so I type them. So Cudos for being excited about Christ return. However, I do not thing the Book of Revelation is speaking about the rapture nor the US nor the Partial return of Jesus Christ but mentioning things very real and present for the early believers. Which means I disagree with the OP.

Do you think believing in the Rapture is extreme?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Do you think believing in the Rapture is extreme?

It depends which group your in. I'll get to Bob's later assertions as soon as he's finnished. However, not how he says there's not enough detail in my assertion then next he says there detail being ignored. Which is it?

 

[BobRyan]

It depends which group your in. I'll get to Bob's later assertions as soon as he's finnished. However, not how he says there's not enough detail in my assertion then next he says there detail being ignored. Which is it?

I thank you for adding more detail in your response -- but I stand by the statement that for your summation of the text to hold up - your argument nicely sidesteps/omits a number of very key details found in the text -- which I then highlighted.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

It depends which group your in. I'll get to Bob's later assertions as soon as he's finnished. However, not how he says there's not enough detail in my assertion then next he says there detail being ignored. Which is it?

Which group I'm in? What do you mean? I do believe in a pre-trib rapture.

I find it odd that depending on which view I hold, you or anyone can label it "extreme."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Which group I'm in? What do you mean? I do believe in a pre-trib rapture.

I find it odd that depending on which view I hold, you or anyone can label it "extreme."

The group that believes in the rapture and say "this is what I believe but I could be wrong and God is right no matter what I think" and the other group that says "God and I are on the same page and the rapture is true and anyone who does not believe it will burn". Those are the two groups I'm thinking about.

 

[Marcia]

The group that believes in the rapture and say "this is what I believe but I could be wrong and God is right no matter what I think" and the other group that says "God and I are on the same page and the rapture is true and anyone who does not believe it will burn". Those are the two groups I'm thinking about.

I don't know anyone who believes that people who disagree with the rapture will "burn!" If there are, they are probably hyper-dispensationalists and I don't even know anyone like that.

This is taking a really far out view there and making it sound like it's popularly held.

Why don't we discuss the subject instead of extremists. I could bring up the extreme hyper Calvinists who call me a heretic (including here on the BB) for not being a Calvinist. I've run into more of them than anyone else as far as extremism goes. I mean, we could go on like this all day with extreme views that are held only by a small fringe.

I consider it an insult even to bring this other view up. Everyone I know who believes in the Rapture is very sound biblically and does not go off on end times stuff.

 

[steaver]

Yep I agree with your statment. I wonder about people who are preoccupied with eschatology. Specifically the rapture. Its like an obsession a dangerous one at that. How many people have hidden themselves away from the impending partial 2nd comming of christ? How many have sold all that they have because the rapture was immament? These people scare me. Not because of things about to happen but because how much of their lives are placed in jepardy because of this belief?

If one is choosing to ignore Revelation then they are missing a specific blessing given by God to His children. It begins; Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.


I sure don't want to be one of those who ignores what God has said in Revelation and is preoccupied with the things of this world such as building wealth for a cushy retirement while the world starves around them.

Careful what you say about God's word and Revelation. Knowledge of the end times and Jesus' return carries a special blessing from God to His children. I would not place it at the bottom of my priorities.

:thumbsup:

 

[just-want-peace]

If one is choosing to ignore Revelation then they are missing a specific blessing given by God to His children. It begins; Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.


I sure don't want to be one of those who ignores what God has said in Revelation and is preoccupied with the things of this world such as building wealth for a cushy retirement while the world starves around them.

Careful what you say about God's word and Revelation. Knowledge of the end times and Jesus' return carries a special blessing from God to His children. I would not place it at the bottom of my priorities.

:thumbsup:

Very well stated Steaver!!

Covers my feelings pretty completely

Also re: an earlier post, I have never known or heard of a "rapturest" that believes you are doomed to hell just because you don't believe in the rapture.

Far as I know, that is not a requirement for salvation, but I do believe you are missing a part of His blessing by denying same.

 

[Grasshopper]

If one is choosing to ignore Revelation then they are missing a specific blessing given by God to His children. It begins; Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

And if you take it out of a 1st century fulfillment then you ignore that very verse which states these things were "at hand". And in case one misses it verse 3 re-states it.

I sure don't want to be one of those who ignores what God has said in Revelation and is preoccupied with the things of this world such as building wealth for a cushy retirement while the world starves around them.

Then I would encourage you not to ignore the time-statements.

Careful what you say about God's word and Revelation. Knowledge of the end times and Jesus' return carries a special blessing from God to His children. I would not place it at the bottom of my priorities.

:thumbsup:

Would those be the same "end times" that the NT writers said were present in their generation?

 

[steaver]

And if you take it out of a 1st century fulfillment then you ignore that very verse which states these things were "at hand". And in case one misses it verse 3 re-states it.

Because it says "the time is at hand" this somehow equates to what? One day, two days, taht very moment? To assign a specific span of time to this without supportive scripture would be subjective. It needs to be evaluated objectively with the full counsel of God's word.

First of all, Revelation is given as seen here from the perspective of the Lord and not from a human view point.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The same Greek words appear in Luke 18:7-8 (en tachei), where the delay is clearly a prolonged one....

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Now, should I go with subjective exegesis with no supportive scripture or objective exegesis allowing scripture to interpret scripture?

Would those be the same "end times" that the NT writers said were present in their generation?

Yes, they would be. The last days began with Jesus' ministry. It doesn't say the last two days, or one hundred days, or 1260 days, or 120000 days.
:jesus:

 

[Grasshopper]

Because it says "the time is at hand" this somehow equates to what? One day, two days, taht very moment? To assign a specific span of time to this without supportive scripture would be subjective. It needs to be evaluated objectively with the full counsel of God's word.

Why do you need supportive scripture when God was quite clear on the matter?

Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads and hears the Words of this prophecy, and the ones keeping the things written in it, for the time is near.

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand.


One only needs to seek out other "supportive" scriptures when one rejects what is already clear.

By the way, what would "not at hand" mean?

First of all, Revelation is given as seen here from the perspective of the Lord and not from a human view point.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Sure, if one wishes to rip verses out of context then you can come up with anything. See Hal Lindsey.

Suppose you show us the proof that the timing of the events of Revelation are tied to your interpretation of 2 Peter.

The same Greek words appear in Luke 18:7-8 (en tachei), where the delay is clearly a prolonged one....

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Now, should I go with subjective exegesis with no supportive scripture or objective exegesis allowing scripture to interpret scripture?

Let scripture interpret scripture as John Gill does:


Luk 18:8 - I tell you that he will avenge them speedily,.... As he did in a few years after the death of Christ, when God's elect among the Jews were singled out, and gathered in from them, and were delivered from their persecutors, and saved from temporal ruin and destruction, whilst the Roman army made sad havoc of their enemies; and so will he do in the end of the world.

Study en tachei as used in these verses:

Act 12:7καὶ ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ἐπέστη καὶ φῶς ἔλαμψεν ἐν τῷ οἰκήματι· πατάξας δὲ τὴν πλευρὰν τοῦ Πέτρου ἤγειρεν αὐτὸν λέγων· ἀνάστα ἐν τάχει. καὶ ἐξέπεσον αὐτοῦ αἱ ἁλύσεις ἐκ τῶν χειρῶν.

Act 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

Act 22:18καὶ ἰδεῖν αὐτὸν λέγοντά μοι· σπεῦσον καὶ ἔξελθε ἐν τάχει ἐξ ῾Ιερουσαλήμ, διότι οὐ παραδέξονταί σου μαρτυρίαν περὶ ἐμοῦ.

Acts 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.


Act 25:4ὁ μὲν οὖν Φῆστος ἀπεκρίθη τηρεῖσθαι τὸν Παῦλον ἐν Καισαρείᾳ, ἑαυτὸν δὲ μέλλειν ἐν τάχει ἐκπορεύεσθαι·

Act 25:4 But Festus answered, that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself would depart shortly thither.


Then move on to eggus of Revelation 1:3.

Yes, they would be. The last days began with Jesus' ministry. It doesn't say the last two days, or one hundred days, or 1260 days, or 120000 days.

When you figure out what "end" the OT and NT writers had in mind, then you can pretty much figure out the when. Pretty much just when Jesus said:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And since you like to quote Peter, think he had the same end in mind in 2 Peter 3 as he did when he said this:

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Or do you just filter all prophetic time statements through 2 Peter 3:8 then proclaim God had no intention in communicating these truths in such a manner that His creation would understand.

 

[Marcia]

"Near at hand" is true for everyone who reads the Bible because we are to expectantly wait for Jesus - we are to be "on the alert" as though he is coming back at any moment. If the scriptures had said that his return is far away or a long time away, what would that mean? That would make it even more confusing.

We are to be ready for Jesus to come back anytime, so "near at hand" expresses that. It expresses a day by day expectancy for those in Peter's time and for Christians in 500 AD, in 1200 AD, in 1800 AD, and now (and future if Jesus tarries).

 

[BobRyan]

"Near at hand" is true for everyone who reads the Bible because we are to expectantly wait for Jesus - we are to be "on the alert" as though he is coming back at any moment. If the scriptures had said that his return is far away or a long time away, what would that mean? That would make it even more confusing.

We are to be ready for Jesus to come back anytime, so "near at hand" expresses that. It expresses a day by day expectancy for those in Peter's time and for Christians in 500 AD, in 1200 AD, in 1800 AD, and now (and future if Jesus tarries).

Amen!!

Preach it! (as Brother Bob used to say)

 

[BobRyan]

If one is choosing to ignore Revelation then they are missing a specific blessing given by God to His children. It begins; Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.


I sure don't want to be one of those who ignores what God has said in Revelation and is preoccupied with the things of this world such as building wealth for a cushy retirement while the world starves around them.

Careful what you say about God's word and Revelation. Knowledge of the end times and Jesus' return carries a special blessing from God to His children. I would not place it at the bottom of my priorities.

:thumbsup:

And again -- right on!

The Bible is inspired by God "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and IS profitable for reproof and for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16.

That includes Matt 24, 2Thess2, 1Thess 4, 1Cor 15, 2Cor 5, the entire book of Revelation, the book of Daniel as well as certain prophetic chapters in Isaiah, Zechariah and Ezek that deal with end time events.

They must be read, studied, prayed about - and the warnings heeded.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Johnv]

"Near at hand" is true for everyone who reads the Bible because we are to expectantly wait for Jesus...

The phrase "at hand" in scripture doesn't mean it's near. It means it has arrived and is within that person's grabbing distance (hence the phrase "at hand'). When John saw Jesus and said "The Kingdom of God is at hand", he was saying "The Kingdom of God is here" it has arrived and is withing the grasp of anyone who wishes to experience it.

Because it says "the time is at hand" this somehow equates to what? One day, two days, taht very moment?

That very moment. It means "the time is here".

 

[Grasshopper]

"Near at hand" is true for everyone who reads the Bible because we are to expectantly wait for Jesus - we are to be "on the alert" as though he is coming back at any moment.

So if those words mean imminent as you suggest, then that means everything that must happen before the imminent event (His coming) had to have happened by the writing of Revelation. Therefore nothing that has happened since the writing of Revelation was a sign or a fulfilled prophetic event. You just sold out modern dispinsationalism.

If the scriptures had said that his return is far away or a long time away, what would that mean? That would make it even more confusing.

No, God had no problem telling His people events were far off:

Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

What's confusing is to deny all the clear time indicators of the NT and pretend they don't mean what they say. For if they mean what they say futuristic eschatology crumbles.

We are to be ready for Jesus to come back anytime, so "near at hand" expresses that. It expresses a day by day expectancy for those in Peter's time and for Christians in 500 AD, in 1200 AD, in 1800 AD, and now (and future if Jesus tarries).

Right out of the dispie playbook but not Biblical.

Let's see how consistent you are:


Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So draweth nigh simply means it could happen at anytime perhaps another 2000 years? So when those signs occur you still have no clue as to when He comes. Then that passage is really useless as a time indicator. Again, LaHaye and Lindsey and numerous others have sold alot of books saying just the opposite.

 

[steaver]

The phrase "at hand" in scripture doesn't mean it's near. It means it has arrived and is within that person's grabbing distance (hence the phrase "at hand'). When John saw Jesus and said "The Kingdom of God is at hand", he was saying "The Kingdom of God is here" it has arrived and is withing the grasp of anyone who wishes to experience it.

That very moment. It means "the time is here".

Amen! Just like Marcia explained. Everyday the kingdom of God is "at hand" just as the last days are "at hand" everyday.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Why do you need supportive scripture when God was quite clear on the matter?

This is quite clear also....

Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Do you hate enough to be Jesus' disciple?

If this is how you interpret scripture, without other scripture, then you are a blind guide.

Study en tachei as used in these verses:

This is why supportive scripture and context is always a must when studying God's word.

I hope you don't really hate all of your family. :tear:

:jesus:

 

[Grasshopper]

This is quite clear also....

Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Do you hate enough to be Jesus' disciple?

If this is how you interpret scripture, without other scripture, then you are a blind guide.



This is why supportive scripture and context is always a must when studying God's word.

I hope you don't really hate all of your family. :tear:

:jesus:

Interesting, this was the best you could do in dealing with what I posted.