America in Bible Prophecy

[Marcia]

Dear Marcia, I am not hostile towards people who believe in the rapture. I think there may be strong opinions contrary to it because it seems as though it is the most popular idea among christians. Those who don't agree with it may feel in the minority. So in order to be heard I guess those try to make their point without consideration. Though after seeing the movie "theif in the night" as a teenager anytime I was alone I thought I got left behind. Even though I accepted Jesus as my personal savior. Upon reflecton I don't think its a healthy train of thought to consentrate on it. Plus look at the groups that adapted this belief system primarily the SDA who are very legalistic.

I am certainly not in agreement with the SDA and some of their endtime views (which have to do with the "mark of the beast"). However, I see nothing wrong or militant with the study of eschatology and looking forward to the return of Christ. I do not think discussing it is making too much of it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I am certainly not in agreement with the SDA and some of their endtime views (which have to do with the "mark of the beast"). However, I see nothing wrong or militant with the study of eschatology and looking forward to the return of Christ. I do not think discussing it is making too much of it.

No. I look for the return of Christ. But I believe it will happen all at once. I think looking for signs of the end is like the Jews in Jesus' day. When he got frustrated at them and told them the only sign they will the is that of Jonah. In other words I don't worry about who the anti Christ is? Or the False prophet. I certainly am not spying for Israel to help them spead up getting access to the Temple mount and rebuilding the Temple. Though I often cheer for Israel I will not betray my country based on eschatology as at least one other has. I think we should be like the virgins and have our lanterns full of oil but I'm not looking at world events and saying "aha! Here it is the Catholic are more ecuminical and if they just join forces with Islam then we'll have our works based One world religion lead by the false prophet and then burning (or lighting) a cross on my Catholic neighbors yard to show them Christ. I am not doing those things and think that those aren't things we should do as Christians. Not that anyone on this site has done that but there are those out there who have. But I do look forward to the Last trump and seeing Christ come again as he said he would. I think discussing it reasonably is ok as far as it goes but when paranoia starts to set in I get worried.

 

[JMSR]

In my limited engagement with those who ponder end times, I've always wondered to myself why it mattered. They seemed to think it necessary to identify us with some point in revelations, and invariably had some strange notions, usually something some "end times preacher" (I thought that was funny in itself) spouted from the pulpit. I think someone else has already said, if you get the first part right, the last part is not such a big deal. Christ will come, and we should look forward to that. Apart from that, why try to make today line up with anything? You're salvation is the issue.


Sorry Marcia, you said what I was thinking. I should have typed faster.

Even more sorry now Marcia, seeing as you didn't post that.

 

[Marcia]

No. I look for the return of Christ. But I believe it will happen all at once. I think looking for signs of the end is like the Jews in Jesus' day. When he got frustrated at them and told them the only sign they will the is that of Jonah. In other words I don't worry about who the anti Christ is? Or the False prophet. I certainly am not spying for Israel to help them spead up getting access to the Temple mount and rebuilding the Temple. Though I often cheer for Israel I will not betray my country based on eschatology as at least one other has. I think we should be like the virgins and have our lanterns full of oil but I'm not looking at world events and saying "aha! Here it is the Catholic are more ecuminical and if they just join forces with Islam then we'll have our works based One world religion lead by the false prophet and then burning (or lighting) a cross on my Catholic neighbors yard to show them Christ. I am not doing those things and think that those aren't things we should do as Christians. Not that anyone on this site has done that but there are those out there who have. But I do look forward to the Last trump and seeing Christ come again as he said he would. I think discussing it reasonably is ok as far as it goes but when paranoia starts to set in I get worried.

This has nothing to do with any of my statements.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This has nothing to do with any of my statements.

It doesn't? You said

However, I see nothing wrong or militant with the study of eschatology and looking forward to the return of Christ. I do not think discussing it is making too much of it.

I think I replied first to your last. Here:

I do not think discussing it is making too much of it.

and I said

No. I look for the return of Christ

Then I thought this may be a problem with discussing it

. I think looking for signs of the end is like the Jews in Jesus' day. When he got frustrated at them and told them the only sign they will the is that of Jonah.

That same principle can apply here. Then I listed some militant and things that people who believe in that particular type of thing have been reported to have done which does seem

wrong or militant with the study of eschatology

But ultimately conceeded your point with

I think discussing it reasonably is ok as far as it goes but when paranoia starts to set in I get worried.

 

[Marcia]

It doesn't? You said

I think I replied first to your last. Here: and I said Then I thought this may be a problem with discussing it That same principle can apply here. Then I listed some militant and things that people who believe in that particular type of thing have been reported to have done which does seem But ultimately conceeded your point with

I have exhibited no signs of paranoia. Why are the extremes being addressed here when no one here, as far as I can tell, has exhibited such traits?

We are not really discussing the topic, but rather discussing those with "extreme" views as characterized by a few people in this so-called discussion. It makes no sense to me.

Let's just change the thread to "those with extreme views" and I'll bow out. It seems as though people love to attack those with "extreme views" even though no one here that I know has them.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have exhibited no signs of paranoia. Why are the extremes being addressed here when no one here, as far as I can tell, has exhibited such traits?

We are not really discussing the topic, but rather discussing those with "extreme" views as characterized by a few people in this so-called discussion. It makes no sense to me.

Let's just change the thread to "those with extreme views" and I'll bow out. It seems as though people love to attack those with "extreme views" even though no one here that I know has them.

I think you misunderstand me. These are extreme views given. They just happen to occur to me when I respond and so I type them. So Cudos for being excited about Christ return. However, I do not thing the Book of Revelation is speaking about the rapture nor the US nor the Partial return of Jesus Christ but mentioning things very real and present for the early believers. Which means I disagree with the OP.

 

[BobRyan]

In my limited engagement with those who ponder end times, I've always wondered to myself why it mattered.

Which is why I posted this reference to the Words of Christ and of Paul on "why the Bible message on the end of days matters to the saints" regarding the end of time.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1469412&postcount=10

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev 19 the much predicted 2nd coming event is seen.

In Rev 20 the much predicted Great White throne jugment and lake of fire is seen.

In Rev 21 the much predicted New Heavens and New earth is detailed in chapter-length detail.

In Rev 14 - the end of the world - the reaping of the saints, the judgment of the wicked is detailed.

In Matt 24 another entire chapter dedicated to the future events culminating in the 2nd coming with warning after warning by Christ not to be deceived. He includes the warning that just as we know to read the signs of nature pointing toward spring - so we are to know the signs of the time pointing to the coming of Christ "know that it is at the door".

Hence the book of Revelation.

I don't think Revelation is trying to predict in Nostrodamus fashion what is going to happen.

Interesting.

Are we to simply ignore the fact that the Lake of Fire (a term only used in the book of revelation) is a future event with a chapter length discussion in Revelation 20.

That would also go for the 2nd coming in Rev 19, a chapter length discussion of another future event

The 7 last plagues in Rev 16. - another chapter length discussion of a future event.

The New Earth that follows the millennium in Chapter 21

To understand Apocalyptic literature you have to understand the genra. (spelling) Having read available 1st century literature I've noted that literature of this type it explains current events in a dramatic fashion.

An interesting speculation. But the details in the book etself do not support the guess above.

The Great White Throne Judgment, of Rev 20, the 2nd Coming of Rev 19, the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 the new earth of Rev 21 -- are pretty clear as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Except that several of the passages he pointed out are not a reference to the second coming. He's misapplying them as such.

An interesting idea. Where is the evidence in exegesis for your assumption?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Just because LaHaye's books were popular does not mean that everyone who believes in the rapture is obsessed with it. I just see a lot of posts on the BB by those who do not believe in the rapture and they are very hostile to those who do and tend to stereotype them. If I misread you, I'm sorry.

Another point in Marcia's favor -- I am one who does not agree with some of LaHaye's ideas -- but that does not mean I can toss out the book of Revelation or toss out Matt 24 or Toss out 2Thess 2 or Toss out 1Cor 15 or toss out 2Peter3, or 1Thess 5, or toss out 1 Peter 1 where Peter tells us to "Fix our hope Completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (and many other texts not listed here as well).

The warning of Christ in Matt 24 is "let no one deceive you". And the protection against that deception is given in the end-times truth and warnings contained in Matt 24. We ignore chapters like Matt 24, and 2Thess2 and the entire book of Revelation and the book of Daniel and... at our own peril.

God's Word cannot simply be sliced and diced in that manner without removing the protection that God has given to the saints against the 2Thess 2 end time deception where God Himself "turns them over" so that "they might believe a lie" for not having a "love of the truth".

To Love the truth - is to accept (not reject) what has been given and to continually desire more (understanding).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I am certainly not in agreement with the SDA and some of their endtime views (which have to do with the "mark of the beast"). However, I see nothing wrong or militant with the study of eschatology and looking forward to the return of Christ. I do not think discussing it is making too much of it.

Marcia makes a good point in that we are not seeing "too much discussion" of Revelation so far -- we are seeing instant resistance to any discussion of it as if the book is some kind of mistake.

Those who recast this entire thing into "I don't want to talk about the rapture" are missing the boat entirely. I don't believe in the secret rapture at all (SDA are post-trib pre-mill) - but I can see that the NT statements on end times are massively important.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

No. I look for the return of Christ. But I believe it will happen all at once. I think looking for signs of the end is like the Jews in Jesus' day. When he got frustrated at them and told them the only sign they will the is that of Jonah. .

It is instructive that when addressing the subject of "signs of the end" you do not go to the actual Gospel chapter where the question is asked by Christ's followers regarding "signs of the end" (Matt 24) -- rather you have diverted instead to another topic -- bait-and-switch style??

The topic you have selected is the one where the Jews after seeing miracles from Christ in feeding the 5,000 -- ask him to show them a sign to prove he is the Messiah.

In Luke 16 Christ gives a parable with the point that if they would not believe the Word of God as written by Moses (regarding the Messiah in this case) they would not believe though one was risen from the Dead (Which Christ soon would be).

If today a few Christians want to toss out the NT Bible writer's words of warning regarding the end times -- they too will find that to be an unprofitable solution.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Marcia makes a good point in that we are not seeing "too much discussion" of Revelation so far -- we are seeing instant resistance to any discussion of it as if the book is some kind of mistake.

Those who recast this entire thing into "I don't want to talk about the rapture" are missing the boat entirely. I don't believe in the secret rapture at all (SDA are post-trib pre-mill) - but I can see that the NT statements on end times are massively important.

in Christ,

Bob

No I'll be glad to discuss revelation. But I don't agree with your paradigm of it. I like the book of revelation but I understand it in the context of its period and literature type.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is instructive that when addressing the subject of "signs of the end" you do not go to the actual Gospel chapter where the question is asked by Christ's followers regarding "signs of the end" (Matt 24) -- rather you have diverted instead to another topic -- bait-and-switch style??

The topic you have selected is the one where the Jews after seeing miracles from Christ in feeding the 5,000 -- ask him to show them a sign to prove he is the Messiah.

In Luke 16 Christ gives a parable with the point that if they would not believe the Word of God as written by Moses (regarding the Messiah in this case) they would not believe though one was risen from the Dead (Which Christ soon would be).

If today a few Christians want to toss out the NT Bible writer's words of warning regarding the end times -- they too will find that to be an unprofitable solution.

in Christ,

Bob

I haven't ignored those signs but what age aren't those signs shown? And what does the end times really mean. Daniel spoke of the Messianic age not the consumation of all things. Jesus said "my kingdom is at hand" What does this mean? The paradigm is different.

 

[BobRyan]

, I do not thing the Book of Revelation is speaking about the rapture nor the US nor the Partial return of Jesus Christ but mentioning things very real and present for the early believers. Which means I disagree with the OP.

Indeed - your preference seems to be to differ.

That is fine -- you have free will in that regard.

My preference is to deal with the details in the text itself.

To each his own. :godisgood:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I haven't ignored those signs but what age aren't those signs shown? And what does the end times really mean. Daniel spoke of the Messianic age not the consumation of all things. Jesus said "my kingdom is at hand" What does this mean? The paradigm is different.

A few details that might be of interest.

1. Daniel 7 goes all the way through to the time of the end when all persecution of the saints ends - and the Kindgom of God is brought to earth.

Daniel 12:1-3 deals with the resurrection of the saints.

2. I have shown the 7 last plagues, the 2nd coming (Rev 19) the Millennium Rev 20, The Great White throne Judgment Rev 20, The New Earth Rev 21 -- to all be mentioned in the book of Revelation at "chapter length" on each subject.

3. I have shown that in Matt 24 when the disciples ask Christ for the "signs of his coming" His answer was not "no sign shall be given".

4. In Matt 24 some signs that did not occur in "every age" include - a tribulation "such as has never occurred in all of history".

It also includes signature events like the historic "Dark Day" and the Historic falling of the Stars that occurred in the 1830's.

In Rev 6 those events are compbined with a reference to a great earthquake (Lisbon Earthquake in 1798 on all saints day -- magnitude estimated to be 9 on what we now have as the Richter scale)

So it cannot be argued that all of the signs were available in every age.

(No radios - no TVs back then )

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

A few details that might be of interest.

Ok

1. Daniel 7 goes all the way through to the time of the end when all persecution of the saints ends - and the Kindgom of God is brought to earth.

The Kingdom of God is seen by Daniel as the Messianic age and to which Jesus says "the kingdom of God is at hand and even now here among you". Messianic age.

Daniel 12:1-3 deals with the resurrection of the saints.

And we find this on the day of the Crusifixion

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Which shows the ushering in the Messianic Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

3. I have shown that in Matt 24 when the disciples ask Christ for the "signs of his coming" His answer was not "no sign shall be given".

Yes lets look at the signs of the age. Luke Chp 21

8He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

The context of this discussion is that at the same time of Jesus and the Apostles there was Simon the Sorcerer who claimed to be like Jesus and started a following of Disciples and ended up having himself "authorized" by the Roman government as a proper Religion of the empire and even a statue of him was built on the tiber river. - Eusibius Ecclesiastical History. Note revolutions were comon in Judea at that time the final destructive rebelion was Bar Kochba rebellion that led to the temple and Jerusalems destruction in 70 AD Which can be seen this is what Jesus was talking about at the begining of this end times discourse here

Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."

So the end times is the end of the Judaic age now God has made himself known to all men through Jesus Christ which is the Messianic age.

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

If you study world history Rome at this time was struggeling against Germanic Kingdoms, They had a slave revolt, they had difficulty with Persians, and Egypt as well as Judea. Note the erruption of Mt Vesuvious in AD 79 as well as common earthquakes in Turkey and the middle east at this time. Also we have this issue with rome

By contrast, the Augustinian system was far less progressive. The shift to flat assessments based on wealth and population both regularized the yield of the tax system and greatly reduced its "progressivity." This is because any growth in taxable capacity led to higher taxes under the tax farming system, while under the Augustinian system communities were only liable for a fixed payment. Thus any increase in income accrued entirely to the people and did not have to be shared with Rome

Which lead the Egyptians to withhold grain to the empire causing food shortages Which is why many years later Zenobia takes advantage and her little Palmyran empire attempts to take on Rome. So food shortage was a serious problem for the empire during and after Jesus day. Not to mention Pestilence which was common in those days

This paper shows that many food remains excavated from Herculaneum were microbiologically contaminated, and that the Romans probably had continuous exposure to gastrointestinal diseases. However, palaeopathological analysis of skeletal remains from Herculaneum shows a low prevalence of non-specific bone inflammation. Pomegranates and figs, consumed by the population, were mainly dried and invariably contaminated by Streptomyces, a bacterium that produces natural tetracycline, an antibiotic. Histological analysis of the human remains demonstrates fluorescence typical of this substance. The tetracycline-labelled human remains show that the Roman inhabitants of Herculaneum ate food contaminated by Streptomyces, and this may explain the rarity of inflammatory bone diseases at the site due to non-specific infection in the living population

I think you miss the context of these signs.

4. In Matt 24 some signs that did not occur in "every age" include - a tribulation "such as has never occurred in all of history".

Yes they have and obviously you missed the persecution under Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Trajan, Marcus Arulius, Septimus Severus, Maximus, Desius, Valerain, Diocletian, and Galerus. Yet with the per captia population of Christains under Nero was probably the most devestating to Christianity.

It also includes signature events like the historic "Dark Day" and the Historic falling of the Stars that occurred in the 1830's.

This is nonsence. There are spikes in the Leonid Showers based on the orbital path of Temple-Tuttle.

In Rev 6 those events are compbined with a reference to a great earthquake (Lisbon Earthquake in 1798 on all saints day -- magnitude estimated to be 9 on what we now have as the Richter scale)

Here you are making connections that do not connect.

 

[BobRyan]

A few details that might be of interest

1. Daniel 7 goes all the way through to the time of the end when all persecution of the saints ends - and the Kindgom of God is brought to earth.

]

1. Daniel 7 goes all the way through to the time of the end when all persecution of the saints ends - and the Kindgom of God is brought to earth. The Kingdom of God is seen by Daniel as the Messianic age and to which Jesus says "the kingdom of God is at hand and even now here among you". Messianic age.

Not nearly enough detail in Daniel 7 being accounted for by that sweeping claim above.

notice.

1. The four kingdoms (Lion, Leopard, Bear, Beast) are four empires - (just as they were in Daniel 2) staring with Babylon and ending with Rome.

2. The persecution of the saints takes place until the judgment wipes out all who persecute and the saints inherit the earth without opposition.

9 ""I kept looking Until [b]thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat[/b]; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels[/b] were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. [/b]

11 ""Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.
12 ""As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

The saints do not receive the kingdom until Christ receives it -- and that does not happen until Christ goes before the Ancient of Days as in the Daniel 7 text.

Therefore when Jesus was on earth He said "My kindom is NOT of this world"

Paul says in 1Cor 15 that once all oppositoin is abolished and subdued unto Christ -- then the end comes and at that still-future point even death itself is overcome.

16 ""I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:


17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings[/b] who will arise from the earth.
18 "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, [b]for all ages to come.'

The saints have not yet inherited the earth - hence in Matt 5 the promise was still future that the "saints would inherit the earth".

The New Earth does not show up until Rev 21 -- after the Millennium and the Great White Throne judgment.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

19 ""Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

21 ""I kept looking, and [b]that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

War is waged against the saints until judgment is passed in favor of the saints AND the saints take possession of the promised inheritence.

23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise[/b]; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

John points to the same persecution of the saints for time, times and half-a-time, 42 months, 1260 prophetic days (years) in Rev 11, 12 and 13.

During the dark ages - the fires of persectuion were "wearing down the saints" -- it is way too late in the day to suppose that the dark-ages persecution is a non-event, as we all know.

26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

thus the point is repeated - that the saints do not get their inheritance until judgment is passed, until all persecution of saints is ended.

And this also tells us why persecution has continued for as long as it has.

Christ said "in this world your have trouble - take courage I have overcome the world".

In Matt 18 Christ said that in the future some would kill the saints supposing that in so doing - they were doing God a service.

Christ said to "consider it all joy" when you are persecuted for "so did they persecute the prophets who were before you."


All NT authors predict future persecution of the saints.