America in Bible Prophecy

[Grasshopper]

wrong.

Yes, I know its wrong. Follow the debate.

 

[Marcia]

Grasshopper, did you read the commentaries I posted? It is not strange to read James 5:8 as to expect Jesus at any moment.

I think you believe that Jesus already came back, right?

Try explaining to the 1st century Christians that the coming of the Lord was near. History tells us it was not near to them. God decieved them in his view.

History tells us now that the end was not near, of course. But they did not know that. However, in view of the fact that the last days began when Jesus came, the time from that point until Jesus comes back is the "last days," and therefore marks the time of the return of Jesus. 2,000 years, 3,000 years, whatever it may be, are the last days according to God, to whom time is nothing compared to eternity. The early believers were to be expectantly waiting for Jesus just as we are.

I don't have time to go into Revelation, nor the inclination. But I am not the only one who says that the events are back and forth between heaven and earth and that time passage is not given throughout. It is an apocalyptic book, a visionary book. But it is clear that we are to await the return of Jesus.

According to you, I guess, this statement no longer applies to us:

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly " Amen Come, Lord Jesus. Rev. 22:20

Just because I quote something from Matthew Henry does not mean I agree with everything he says. Actually, I don't know any person that I agree with everything on.

 

[BobRyan]

So you are saying Jesus is not physically returning?

How does the OT use "coming on the clouds" and do the NT Prophets use it in the same manner or differently?

Daniel 7 uses it to describe the coming of Christ to the "Ancient of Days" in the judgment of heaven when "all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ". A point in time future to Romans 2 - when God WILL judge the secrets of all men through Jesus Christ and when judgment "is passed in favor of the saints"

In Matt 24, 26 and Rev 1 Jesus uses it to refer to the visible 2nd coming of Christ.

Both aspects are correct.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper
And if you take it out of a 1st century fulfillment then you ignore that very verse which states these things were "at hand". And in case one misses it verse 3 re-states it.

Because it says "the time is at hand" this somehow equates to what? One day, two days, taht very moment? To assign a specific span of time to this without supportive scripture would be subjective. It needs to be evaluated objectively with the full counsel of God's word.

In 2Thess 2 Paul argues emphatically for believers NOT to be "deceived" by those who would suggest that the rapture has "happened". Paul then indicates a long list of events that must come FIRST.

1. The falling away -- the apostacy of the Christian church into the dark ages of the RCC.

2. The man of sin revealed -

3. Signs and wonders -- assocated with the working of Satan that would appear in the future.

-------------

John -- the Gospel writer - then goes into a great bit of detail on these points about future events that preceed the appearing of Christ. He reveals that information under the pattern of The 7 seals, the 7 trumpets the 7 churches.

He also shows where in that future timeline the 1260 years of dark ages persecution takes place.

A point that the RCC has tried for centuries to misdirect so as not to expose the historic significance of her actions and the fact that God warned of that very thing when speaking to John.

1. Clearly the NT authors never claimed to have seen a first century fufillment of the 2nd coming promises.

2. Clearly the NT authors and readers DID expect a soon return of Christ -- in their lifetime. If such was not the case then the deception Paul warned about in 2Thess 2 could have been put aside by saying "don't believe anyone who says that Christ has come because it is not going to happen in our life time".

3. The 2Thess 2 reference shows that they did not think Christ "had come" the 2nd time. It also shows that many "events" would need to happen BEFORE the appearing of Christ and our "gathering together unto Him" to quote Paul in 2Thess 2.

Thus it is true that first century saints were not anticipating 2000 years of waiting. No generation has.

And the book of Daniel was "sealed' and the 2300 year timeline he described in Dan 8, as well as the 1260 year timeline he described in Daniel 7 were "hidden".

As to whether the 490 year timeline he depicts in Daniel 9 pertaining to the first coming of Christ was also hidden -- that is not clear. Apparently pre-cross saints did figure that one out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Grasshopper]

[/I]

1. Clearly the NT authors never claimed to have seen a first century fufillment of the 2nd coming promises

.

Perhaps because they were dead and perhaps the Bible was finished pre-AD70.

2. Clearly the NT authors and readers DID expect a soon return of Christ -- in their lifetime.

BINGO! And why did inspired NT writers expect such a thing?

If such was not the case then the deception Paul warned about in 2Thess 2 could have been put aside by saying "don't believe anyone who says that Christ has come because it is not going to happen in our life time".

BINGO again. So did Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, know the time frame when He would come? If not, then how could he say this to the Thessalonians:

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you(the Thessalonians)
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If he didn't know then he sure mis-lead and gave a false hope to those Thessalonians who were suffering real persecution.

3. The 2Thess 2 reference shows that they did not think Christ "had come" the 2nd time. It also shows that many "events" would need to happen BEFORE the appearing of Christ and our "gathering together unto Him" to quote Paul in 2Thess 2.

Exactly, read the NT and see the fulfillment of those prophecies.

Thus it is true that first century saints were not anticipating 2000 years of waiting. No generation has.

But I was told "generation" means race. How do you define it?

And the book of Daniel was "sealed' and the 2300 year timeline he described in Dan 8, as well as the 1260 year timeline he described in Daniel 7 were "hidden".

And John was told not to seal his:

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Why was he told not to seal his? Because the TIME was near!

As to whether the 490 year timeline he depicts in Daniel 9 pertaining to the first coming of Christ was also hidden -- that is not clear. Apparently pre-cross saints did figure that one out.

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

One could make the case that the "wise men" knew of the Messiah's birth because of Daniel's writings and becuase of his time in Babylon.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan


1. Clearly the NT authors never claimed to have seen a first century fufillment of the 2nd coming promises[/I]

Bob said -
1. Clearly the NT authors never claimed to have seen a first century fufillment of the 2nd coming promises

Grasshopper said -

Perhaps because they were dead and perhaps the Bible was finished pre-AD70.

Wishful thinking?

There is no agreement at all among either Bible historians or Bible scholars that John was dead before 70 AD.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

A few years ago, I was battling Grasshopper (and Eschatologist) hard, in favor of futurism (or at least a dual fulfillment that acknowledged that AD70 was an immediate preliminary fulfillment; but that the "real deal" was yet future), but it's true that we do have to do a lot of stretching to get around some of these time statements. Even back then, as I argued, the whole (some of you standing here" was always one of those bugging "unanswered questions" that we were never able to ever really work out.
I had admired the clearness of the concept of "time statements".

Now, I see that some of the interpretations are downright awful.
Regarding "1000 years is as a day", one thing we should remember, is that in this case, God is not speaking those prophecies to Himself! He's giving them to US. And to us, and thousand years is NOT as a day. So that principle would have no reason to apply to the prophetic time statements.

Then, the notion that God is trying to "keep us on our toes" by telling us soon. But that is making God a liar. To DELIBERATELY tell us soon, when he knows it is not. May be a sort of "good" intention; but sorry; it crossses the line of truthfulness. (And did it even work? Just look at Church history! "Soon" would only be effective in keeping people on their toes, if it really was soon!)

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
3. The 2Thess 2 reference shows that they did not think Christ "had come" the 2nd time. It also shows that many "events" would need to happen BEFORE the appearing of Christ and our "gathering together unto Him" to quote Paul in 2Thess 2.

2Thess 2

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,[/b]

[/quote]

1. Apostasy of the church resulting in the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints.
2. Man of lawlessness – son of destruction (an antichrist) – leading the Christian church in that apostasy
3. Antichrist exalting himself – as seated in the temple of God – God on earth
4. The Rev 7 “restraint” will be removed (Future to today)
5. Power signs and false wonders to be seen: “ whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders" -- (future to today - obviously)
6. whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming (Another future event)


2Thess 1 -

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Grasshopper

Exactly, read the NT and see the fulfillment of those prophecies.

No such fulfillment has been seen.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now, I see that some of the interpretations are downright awful.
Regarding "1000 years is as a day", one thing we should remember, is that in this case, God is not speaking those prophecies to Himself! He's giving them to US. And to us, and thousand years is NOT as a day. So that principle would have no reason to apply to the prophetic time statements.

Peter says "with GOD a thousand years is as a day AND A day is as a THOUSAND years". So instead of a "time rule" what Peter is giving us is the principle that God "has enough time" in a day to get many things done -- and He has "enough patience to wait a 1000 years" if that is what it takes to get the plan fully accomplished.

Thus -- A short time is not "too short" for God -- and a long time is not "too long" for him.

So -- historicist it is.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thus it is true that first century saints were not anticipating 2000 years of waiting. No generation has.

And the book of Daniel was "sealed' and the 2300 year timeline he described in Dan 8, as well as the 1260 year timeline he described in Daniel 7 were "hidden".

As to whether the 490 year timeline he depicts in Daniel 9 pertaining to the first coming of Christ was also hidden -- that is not clear. Apparently pre-cross saints did figure that one out.

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

One could make the case that the "wise men" knew of the Messiah's birth because of Daniel's writings and becuase of his time in Babylon.

Daniels 1260 years (Dan 7) and 2300 years (Dan 8) are tied to the 490 (Dan 9) years in that -
1. the 2300 year timeline has the same start date as the 490 years.
2. The 1260 years of "dark ages" persecution of the saints is fully contained within that 2300 year timeline.

But of course - that is the part of Daniel that was sealed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Grasshopper]

1. Apostasy of the church resulting in the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints.

Apostacy was occuring in the 1st century. Read Galations, Hebrews etc....


2. Man of lawlessness – son of destruction (an antichrist) – leading the Christian church in that apostasy

Man of Lawlessness was already at work in the 1st century.

3. Antichrist exalting himself – as seated in the temple of God – God on earth

The Antichrist is found nowhere in Thessalonians or Revelation or anywhere else. Read who John says is an antichrist in 1 and 2 John.

You never answered my question so I will pose it again:

So did Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, know the time frame when He would come? If not, then how could he say this to the Thessalonians:

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you(the Thessalonians)
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If he didn't know then he sure mis-lead and gave a false hope to those Thessalonians who were suffering real persecution.

 

[Eric B]

Peter says "with GOD a thousand years is as a day AND A day is as a THOUSAND years". So instead of a "time rule" what Peter is giving us is the principle that God "has enough time" in a day to get many things done -- and He has "enough patience to wait a 1000 years" if that is what it takes to get the plan fully accomplished.

Thus -- A short time is not "too short" for God -- and a long time is not "too long" for him.

So -- historicist it is.

in Christ,

Bob

But as I just said; He is not speaking to Himself. What He has said is NOT "for Him"; it's for US! And 1000 years is not as a day for us.

The historicist version always seemed farfetched; because you can plug any event in as any fulfillment. You take the signs in the sun, moon and stars as being some event a few centuries ago, but stuff like that has been claimed at other times as well.
Armstrong's version is better, with the various resurrections of the Holy Roman Empire as the first six heads of the beast, and that was what attracted me to historico-futurism. But even that can be interpreted different ways, or historical events invoving the European Union turn out in a way that totally destroys it.

I have to admit, from my frustration with the sins of America (and Britain), and the fact that they are so powerful, I liked the idea of it/them being the second beast, and that did seem to fit. But even that interpretation too seemed a bit forced.

 

[BobRyan]

The historicist version always seemed farfetched; because you can plug any event in as any fulfillment. You take the signs in the sun, moon and stars as being some event a few centuries ago, but stuff like that has been claimed at other times as well.

The historicist method observes key details in both Daniel and Rev where God shows John what is and what is to come. Rev 1:19. So the model itself is very Biblical.

The signs of Rev 6 that are to follow the great tribulation of the dark ages (1260 years of persecution of the saints) is said to be a great Earthquake, dark day, moon turns to blood, stars fall. ( a similar list is given in Matt 24)

Rev 6
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal[/b], and there was a [b]great earthquake; and the sun became black[/b] as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood[/b];
13 and the stars of the sky fell[/b] to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll[/b] when it is rolled up, and [b]every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The 1260 years of dark ages persecution had ended before the end of the 18th century. Therefore in the 18th and 19th century we see the signs predicted in Rev 6 and Matt 24 had taken place.



Lisbon EarthQuake – November 1, 1755

Dark Day of May 19, 1780
(Sun is dark, moon turns to blood color)

Stars Fall: November 13th, 1833

=========================================
The secular authorities that attest to these historic events have no interest at all in the "historicist method" yet they all declare that these events were historically remarkable.


Lisbon EarthQuake
Encyclopedia Americana, article `Lisbon', note (ed. 1831).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake
The 1755 Lisbon earthquake, also known as the Great Lisbon Earthquake, took place on 1 November 1755, at around 9:40 in the morning.[1] The earthquake was followed by a tsunami and fires, which caused near-total destruction of Lisbon in the Kingdom of Portugal, and adjoining areas. Geologists today estimate the Lisbon earthquake approached magnitude 9 on the Moment magnitude scale, with an epicenter in the Atlantic Ocean about 200 km (120 mi) west-southwest of Cape St. Vincent. Estimates place the death toll in Lisbon alone between 10,000 and 100,000 people,[2] making it one of the most destructive earthquakes in history.
The earthquake accentuated political tensions in the Kingdom of Portugal and profoundly disrupted the country's eighteenth-century colonial ambitions. The event was widely discussed and dwelt upon by European Enlightenment philosophers, and inspired major developments in theodicy and in the philosophy of the sublime. As the first earthquake studied scientifically for its effects over a large area, it led to the birth of modern seismology and earthquake engineering.


Dark Day –
Noah Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, Vocabulary of the Names of Noted ... Persons and Places, ed. 1869, 1882 & 1883.
"The Dark Day, May 19, 1780 -- so-called on account of a remarkable darkness on that day extending over all New England ... The obscuration began about ten o'clock in the morning, and continued till the middle of the next night, but with difference and duration in different places ... The true cause of this remarkable phenomena is not known."



Stars Fall
One of the greatest meteor storms ever seen took place nearly 166 years ago over the eastern United States. During the 4 hours which preceded dawn on Nov. 13, 1833,
…
The storm marked the discovery of the annual Leonids meteor shower and is widely regarded as the birth of modern meteor astronomy.
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast22jun99_2.htm


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. Apostasy of the church resulting in the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints.

Apostacy was occuring in the 1st century. Read Galations, Hebrews etc....

1. nothing like that of the dark ages apostacy - prayers to the dead, persecution of the saints by the 10's of millions.

2. Also Paul informs his readers that they should know that the 2nd coming has NOT come because the "falling away" had to come first -- and clearly his statement argues that it had NOT happened by any means by the time 2Thess 2 was written.

3. Yet as you say - Paul affirms that the saints were persecuted - but also affirms that ALL should know that the great "falling away" of 2Thess 2 was yet future so no expectation of the 2nd coming should be allowed before that yet-future event of apostacy.

2. Man of lawlessness – son of destruction (an antichrist) – leading the Christian church in that apostasy

Man of Lawlessness was already at work in the 1st century.

At no point does Paul ever argue that the yet-future appearance of the man of lawlessness that he mentions in 2Thess 2- had taken place. Rather he argues that since the 2Thess 2 readers knew it had NOT taken place - they should not be mislead by someone later sending them a letter AS IF to the effect that the 2nd coming had taken place.

3. Antichrist exalting himself – as seated in the temple of God – God on earth

The Antichrist is found nowhere in Thessalonians or Revelation or anywhere else. Read who John says is an antichrist in 1 and 2 John.

Paul references the man of sin -- the man of lawlessness in 2Thess 2. Paul never uses the term antichrist in any of his writings.

IN 2Thess 2 -- Paul declares that this man of lawlessness is yet to be revealed and is a "sign" to the readers that the 2nd coming had not happened.

You never answered my question so I will pose it again:

So did Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, know the time frame when He would come? If not, then how could he say this to the Thessalonians:

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you(the Thessalonians)
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If he didn't know then he sure mis-lead

"No man knoweth the day nor the hour" -- Paul spent the entire chapter of 2Thess 2 telling his readers that many things YET FUTURE needed to happen BEFORE the 2nd coming.

He never gave a time estimate not in months or years or decades or centuries.

and gave a false hope to those Thessalonians who were suffering real persecution.

He gave them no false hope. He gave EVERY Bible reader in ALL ages the same promise - that God will destroy the wicked. That the wicked will pay the price of "fire" destruction by fire.

Peter does the same thing in 2Peter 3 where he declares that at that 2nd coming event "The elements melt with a fervent heat" -- which is what we see in Rev 20 after the millennium -- thus combining both events in his picture of the intervention of God in human history at the 2nd coming.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Grasshopper]

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

1. nothing like that of the dark ages apostacy - prayers to the dead, persecution of the saints by the 10's of millions.

Apostacy: Turning or falling away from true gospel teachings as individuals or as a people.

The RCC was a false religion. In order to be an apostacy you must first have believed the true Gospel. You can't fall away from something you never believed.

Secondly you ignore the immediate context of apostacy as found throughout the NT.

2. Also Paul informs his readers that they should know that the 2nd coming has NOT come because the "falling away" had to come first -- and clearly his statement argues that it had NOT happened by any means by the time 2Thess 2 was written.

Thessalonians was written around AD51, some believe the earlist of Paul's letters. 20 years before the coming destruction of Jerusalem.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

3. Yet as you say - Paul affirms that the saints were persecuted - but also affirms that ALL should know that the great "falling away" of 2Thess 2 was yet future so no expectation of the 2nd coming should be allowed before that yet-future event of apostacy.

Read Paul's later letters.

At no point does Paul ever argue that the yet-future appearance of the man of lawlessness that he mentions in 2Thess 2- had taken place. Rather he argues that since the 2Thess 2 readers knew it had NOT taken place - they should not be mislead by someone later sending them a letter AS IF to the effect that the 2nd coming had taken place.

It was future in AD51.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Paul references the man of sin -- the man of lawlessness in 2Thess 2. Paul never uses the term antichrist in any of his writings.

Who does other than John? And what is his definition? And why do you equate an "AntiChrist" with the man of sin? Show me where the Bible teaches a coming Antichrist.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Already present in the 1st century:

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

IN 2Thess 2 -- Paul declares that this man of lawlessness is yet to be revealed and is a "sign" to the readers that the 2nd coming had not happened.

Again no one is claiming His coming had occured in AD51. Secondly if His coming is this great cataclysmic event why does Paul need to explain to them it hadn't happend yet?

"No man knoweth the day nor the hour" -- Paul spent the entire chapter of 2Thess 2 telling his readers that many things YET FUTURE needed to happen BEFORE the 2nd coming.

No argument.

He never gave a time estimate not in months or years or decades or centuries.

He told the Thessalonians their persecutions would be relieved at His coming. If you were a Thessalonian living under persecution in AD51 what would you think Paul meant? Did the ispired Paul understand what he meant? You have yet to answer these questions.

He gave them no false hope. He gave EVERY Bible reader in ALL ages the same promise - that God will destroy the wicked. That the wicked will pay the price of "fire" destruction by fire.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

No, he promised relief from the persecution the Thessalonians were enduring. You can deny it all you want, but scripture is on my side.

Peter does the same thing in 2Peter 3 where he declares that at that 2nd coming event "The elements melt with a fervent heat" -- which is what we see in Rev 20 after the millennium -- thus combining both events in his picture of the intervention of God in human history at the 2nd coming.

Is there death and sin after the New heavens and New Earth are brought about?

 

[Eric B]

That's another thing. About the "falling away" being now or in the future. That is based on Christians looking at cultural, moral climate changes in the US and Europe, compared to a supposed "golden age of righteousness" up to the 1960's, or earlier in the 20th century. SDA literature often mentions evolution and spiritualism as part of the falling away. The other Christians will add political developments. But the Church and the societies it influenced were corrupt only a few centuries after this was written. If Sunday is supposed to be the ultimate sin of the endtimes, that started creeping in within one century from the NT. Paul said the wolves would show up right after his departure, not in 20th century America.
So the prophecies are not about us. There's a whole other world out there, and the Bible was focused on Israel and the early Church.

The historicist method observes key details in both Daniel and Rev where God shows John what is and what is to come. Rev 1:19. So the model itself is very Biblical.

The signs of Rev 6 that are to follow the great tribulation of the dark ages (1260 years of persecution of the saints) is said to be a great Earthquake, dark day, moon turns to blood, stars fall. ( a similar list is given in Matt 24)

The 1260 years of dark ages persecution had ended before the end of the 18th century. Therefore in the 18th and 19th century we see the signs predicted in Rev 6 and Matt 24 had taken place.

Lisbon EarthQuake – November 1, 1755

Dark Day of May 19, 1780
(Sun is dark, moon turns to blood color)

Stars Fall: November 13th, 1833

=========================================
The secular authorities that attest to these historic events have no interest at all in the "historicist method" yet they all declare that these events were historically remarkable.

Lisbon EarthQuake
Encyclopedia Americana, article `Lisbon', note (ed. 1831).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake
The 1755 Lisbon earthquake, also known as the Great Lisbon Earthquake, took place on 1 November 1755, at around 9:40 in the morning.[1] The earthquake was followed by a tsunami and fires, which caused near-total destruction of Lisbon in the Kingdom of Portugal, and adjoining areas. Geologists today estimate the Lisbon earthquake approached magnitude 9 on the Moment magnitude scale, with an epicenter in the Atlantic Ocean about 200 km (120 mi) west-southwest of Cape St. Vincent. Estimates place the death toll in Lisbon alone between 10,000 and 100,000 people,[2] making it one of the most destructive earthquakes in history.
The earthquake accentuated political tensions in the Kingdom of Portugal and profoundly disrupted the country's eighteenth-century colonial ambitions. The event was widely discussed and dwelt upon by European Enlightenmentphilosophers, and inspired major developments in theodicy and in the philosophy of the sublime. As the first earthquake studied scientifically for its effects over a large area, it led to the birth of modern seismology and earthquake engineering.

Dark Day –
Noah Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, Vocabulary of the Names of Noted ... Persons and Places, ed. 1869, 1882 & 1883.
"The Dark Day, May 19, 1780 -- so-called on account of a remarkable darkness on that day extending over all New England ... The obscuration began about ten o'clock in the morning, and continued till the middle of the next night, but with difference and duration in different places ... The true cause of this remarkable phenomena is not known."

Stars Fall
One of the greatest meteor storms ever seen took place nearly 166 years ago over the eastern United States. During the 4 hours which preceded dawn on Nov. 13, 1833,
…
The storm marked the discovery of the annual Leonids meteor shower and is widely regarded as the birth of modern meteor astronomy.
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast22jun99_2.htm

This is called confirmation bias. You piece together events, like a puzzle piece, and it seems to fit. Again, you can hear claims of stuff like that at other times. But you tie it to the 1260 years. Armstrongism would say that your interpretation (with the "deadly wound" healed in the 1790's) would lead to the Beast/Church continuing another 1260 years into the 3000's!
Just the earthquakes and tsunamis that have been occurring in places more recently are probably bigger than those. There have been other meteor showers, so "stars falling' is probably not a meteor shower. And anytime there's some big dust storm, you wull have that "sign" in the sky. Something like this just in recent months occurred in Sydney.

 

[BobRyan]

1. nothing like that of the dark ages apostacy - prayers to the dead, persecution of the saints by the 10's of millions.
Apostacy: Turning or falling away from true gospel teachings as individuals or as a people.

The RCC was a false religion. In order to be an apostacy you must first have believed the true Gospel. You can't fall away from something you never believed.

Secondly you ignore the immediate context of apostacy as found throughout the NT.

1. Your objection only works if we revise history such that hindus or budhists eventually evolve into "Catholics". Such is not the case historically as the origin for the Catholic church. Historically it is the Christian church that goes into apostasy.

Just as Paul predicts in Acts 20 "From among your own selves" wolves arise teaching false doctrine.

Just as Paul directs Timothy in 1Tim 1 that he is to remain in Ephesus and combat the false doctrines arising from within.

Just as Paul directs Titus in Titus one -- to put down the false doctrines arising there.

And so when Paul says in 2Thess 2 that in the FUTURE this results in a "falling away" he is not talking about the present situation because that can hardly be an argument against someone sending a letter to them saying the "coming of Christ has occurred already".

Just stating the obvious here that I suppose we all agree with.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
1. nothing like that of the dark ages apostacy - prayers to the dead, persecution of the saints by the 10's of millions.

2. Also Paul informs his readers that they should know that the 2nd coming has NOT come because the "falling away" had to come first -- and clearly his statement argues that it had NOT happened by any means by the time 2Thess 2 was written.

3. Yet as you say - Paul affirms that the saints were persecuted - but also affirms that ALL should know that the great "falling away" of 2Thess 2 was yet future so no expectation of the 2nd coming should be allowed before that yet-future event of apostacy.

As noted previously - Paul commands Timothy to oppose the rise of false doctrines in Ephesus - as he also instructs Titus in Titus 1.

Never does he say "Ephesus has fallen" in fact Timothy is the pastor at Ephesus. Never does Paul say to Titus "the church has fallen away".

The dark ages of apstacy were still ahead of the christian church - history bears this out.

It did not happen in the first century.

Thessalonians was written around AD51, some believe the earlist of Paul's letters. 20 years before the coming destruction of Jerusalem.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Acts 20 predicts that men will arise teaching false doctrine.

That principle over time - gave us the dark ages. Long after the first century A.D.

Even the Church of Galatia "had not fallen" - though it had division within.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The act of "some falling" in the first century is still not the general dark ages falling away that history reveals as lasting for over 1260 nears.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2Thess 2 is speaking of a time when as we see predicted in Rev 7 - the Holy Spirit no longer restrains iniquity -- the 4 angels no longer restrain the winds of strife.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The historicist method observes key details in both Daniel and Rev where God shows John what is and what is to come. Rev 1:19. So the model itself is very Biblical.

The signs of Rev 6 that are to follow the great tribulation of the dark ages (1260 years of persecution of the saints) is said to be a great Earthquake, dark day, moon turns to blood, stars fall. ( a similar list is given in Matt 24)

The 1260 years of dark ages persecution had ended before the end of the 18th century. Therefore in the 18th and 19th century we see the signs predicted in Rev 6 and Matt 24 had taken place.

Lisbon EarthQuake – November 1, 1755

Dark Day of May 19, 1780
(Sun is dark, moon turns to blood color)

Stars Fall: November 13th, 1833

=========================================
The secular authorities that attest to these historic events have no interest at all in the "historicist method" yet they all declare that these events were historically remarkable.

Lisbon EarthQuake
Encyclopedia Americana, article `Lisbon', note (ed. 1831).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake
The 1755 Lisbon earthquake, also known as the Great Lisbon Earthquake, took place on 1 November 1755, at around 9:40 in the morning.[1] The earthquake was followed by a tsunami and fires, which caused near-total destruction of Lisbon in the Kingdom of Portugal, and adjoining areas. Geologists today estimate the Lisbon earthquake approached magnitude 9 on the Moment magnitude scale, with an epicenter in the Atlantic Ocean about 200 km (120 mi) west-southwest of Cape St. Vincent. Estimates place the death toll in Lisbon alone between 10,000 and 100,000 people,[2] making it one of the most destructive earthquakes in history.
The earthquake accentuated political tensions in the Kingdom of Portugal and profoundly disrupted the country's eighteenth-century colonial ambitions. The event was widely discussed and dwelt upon by European Enlightenmentphilosophers, and inspired major developments in theodicy and in the philosophy of the sublime. As the first earthquake studied scientifically for its effects over a large area, it led to the birth of modern seismology and earthquake engineering.

Dark Day –
Noah Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, Vocabulary of the Names of Noted ... Persons and Places, ed. 1869, 1882 & 1883.
"The Dark Day, May 19, 1780 -- so-called on account of a remarkable darkness on that day extending over all New England ... The obscuration began about ten o'clock in the morning, and continued till the middle of the next night, but with difference and duration in different places ... The true cause of this remarkable phenomena is not known."

Stars Fall
One of the greatest meteor storms ever seen took place nearly 166 years ago over the eastern United States. During the 4 hours which preceded dawn on Nov. 13, 1833,
…
The storm marked the discovery of the annual Leonids meteor shower and is widely regarded as the birth of modern meteor astronomy.
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast22jun99_2.htm

This is called confirmation bias. You piece together events, like a puzzle piece, and it seems to fit.

In Matt 24 Jesus calls it recognizing the signs of the times "so WHEN you SEE all these SIGNS know that it is near".

1. Labeling that language "Confirmation bias" does nothing to change the point.

2. The careful reader will note that in each case above - secular authorities recognize the sign given as changing the course of history by starting some entire branch of science and study for mankind - since the event is so hard to "ignore" -- it is so massively significant EVEN to secular auhorities.

Thus the point remains.

Just the earthquakes and tsunamis that have been occurring in places more recently are probably bigger than those.

The argument in scripture as found in Rev 6 is not that this is the "biggest earthquake ever" -- just that it is a "great earthquake" -- and science today estimates Lisbon at about a 9.0 would still call this a great earthquake with origins NOT in the middle of the ocean or remote desert.

As the source points out - the event was so significant it BEGAN the science of monitoring earthquakes.

There have been other meteor showers, so "stars falling' is probably not a meteor shower.

As the secular source points out -- the event was so significant it BEGAN the science of monitoring meteor showers.

And anytime there's some big dust storm, you wull have that "sign" in the sky. Something like this just in recent months occurred in Sydney.

As the secular source points out --- the term "dark day" is applied uniquely to that one event. Never has it assigned to "dust storm" nor even "eclipse", NOR does the dictionary label every occurance of a dust storm as an historic "Dark Day". There is only "one".

Thus the details are pointing to far more significance than you are allowing. Even by secular non-SDA standards.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

That's another thing. About the "falling away" being now or in the future. That is based on Christians looking at cultural, moral climate changes in the US and Europe, compared to a supposed "golden age of righteousness" up to the 1960's, or earlier in the 20th century. SDA literature often mentions evolution and spiritualism as part of the falling away. The other Christians will add political developments. But the Church and the societies it influenced were corrupt only a few centuries after this was written. If Sunday is supposed to be the ultimate sin of the endtimes, that started creeping in within one century from the NT. Paul said the wolves would show up right after his departure, not in 20th century America.
So the prophecies are not about us. There's a whole other world out there, and the Bible was focused on Israel and the early Church.

Again - you have missed a number of key inconvenient details in the text of scripture.

1. Rev 4 and 5 and 7 and 12, 21 all point to events applicable to "all mankind".
-The entire earth having the 4 winds of strife withheld (rev 7) from the entire earth, the first coming of Christ (Rev 12),
-The persecution of the saints following the first coming (rev 12 and 13, Dan 7 and Dan 8),
-The 2nd coming Rev 19 and destruction of all the wicked, The resurrection of all the saints AND then 1000 years later the lake of Fire destruction of ALL the wicked Rev 20,
-The city of God where ALL saints -- all mankind enters through 1 of 12 gates.
-The post Millennial time of no death for all the saints Rev 21.

There is no possible way to exclude the full scope of history from Daniel Revelation

What is -- and "what is to come" going all the way to the 2nd coming, resurrection of the saints, 1000 years, lake of fire, new heavens and new earth. ALL applicable to ALL mankind in some way.

in Christ,

Bob