America in Bible Prophecy

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Peter does the same thing in 2Peter 3 where he declares that at that 2nd coming event "The elements melt with a fervent heat" -- which is what we see in Rev 20 after the millennium -- thus combining both events in his picture of the intervention of God in human history at the 2nd coming.

Is there death and sin after the New heavens and New Earth are brought about?

No. In Rev 21 (describing events after the 1000 years of Rev 20) no death, no sorrow, nomore tears. All the wicked were destroyed in the lake of fire as noted in Rev 20.

No sin.

No death.

No sorrow.

Mankind in complete open fellowship with God as stated in Rev 21.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

No, he promised relief from the persecution the Thessalonians were enduring. You can deny it all you want, but scripture is on my side.

Hint - Paul died by execution. Peter died by execution as did almost all the Apostles. Only John lived to die a natural death.

Then followed many more centuries of persecution and death of the saints -- including the 1260 years of dark ages persecution identified in Dan 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, and Rev 13.

History shows that your interpretation is incorrect.

So also does a careful review of the Bible on this point.

2 Thess 1 (NASB)
4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction[/b], away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed for our testimony to you was believed.

The releif given at the 2nd coming - is the end of sin, the saints taken to heaven - as even Jesus stated in John 14 "I will come again and receive you to myself". Peter says that all the saints in all of time are to "fix their hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ".

Nothing here can be turned to suppose that Paul predicted he would not die by execution.

he is predicting no such thing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Grasshopper]

Never does he say "Ephesus has fallen" in fact Timothy is the pastor at Ephesus. Never does Paul say to Titus "the church has fallen away".

So where does Paul say the entire church will fall away? You make that assumption but where does Paul state such a thing?

He did say this:

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Is this not apostacy?

Even the Church of Galatia "had not fallen" - though it had division within.

Where does Paul state in the future the entire church will fall away?

In Matt 24 Jesus calls it recognizing the signs of the times "so WHEN you SEE all these SIGNS know that it is near".

Again, what does "near" mean? I was told it means imminent by one person, is that your definition as well? How could James and other NT writers then claim 30 years later that it was near?

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

On one hand you say they will know it is near when they see the signs but then you ignore the NT writers when they proclaim it is near 30 years later. If it was near in AD50 then the signs must have been fulfilled by that time.

The argument in scripture as found in Rev 6 is not that this is the "biggest earthquake ever" -- just that it is a "great earthquake" -- and science today estimates Lisbon at about a 9.0 would still call this a great earthquake with origins NOT in the middle of the ocean or remote desert.

Interesting about Rev. 6, it too has a 1st century context:

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

It is a quote from Is.2:10

Jesus also quotes this passage from Is. 2 and applies it to 1st century Jews!

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

No need to rip it out of its 1st century context.

Secondly your lack of knowledge of how apocalyptic language is used throughout the Bible causes you to come up with these bizzare interpretations. John Gill sums it up nicely:

"Not to hold you too long upon what is so plain and evident, you may take it for a rule, that, in the denunciations of the judgments of God, through all the prophets, heaven, sun, moon, stars, and the like appearing beauties and glories of the aspectable heavens, are taken for governments, governors, dominions in political states, as Isa. 14:12-15; Jer 15:9, 51:25. Isaiah 13:13; Ps. 68:6; Joel 2:10; Rev. 8:12; Matt. 24:29; Luke 21:25; Isa 60:20; Obad. 4; Rev 8:13; 11:12; 20:11." (vol. 8, p. 255, in a sermon entitled Shaking and Translating of Heaven and Earth, preached on April 19, 1649)

 

[Grasshopper]

No. In Rev 21 (describing events after the 1000 years of Rev 20) no death, no sorrow, nomore tears. All the wicked were destroyed in the lake of fire as noted in Rev 20.

No sin.
No death.
No sorrow.
Mankind in complete open fellowship with God as stated in Rev 21.

Jesus didn't abolish death?

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


Peter gets his doctrine of the New Heavens and New Earth from Isaiah:

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


The problem for you is that death, sin and curses occcur in the New Heavens and Earth according to Isaiah:

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


Secondly according to Revelation 22 sin continues to exist:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Yet these sinners are invited into the New Jerusalem:


Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

What is the New Jerusalem? It is the Church:

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Is not the New Jerusalem found in the New Heavens and New Earth?

Another problem you have is you put the New H&E at the end of a 1000 year millennial kingdom. But notice:

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Righteousness is found in the New H&E. Yet according to Daniel 9 righteousness is brought in during the 70th week


Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

You have the 70th week of Daniel occuring at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Is that your view?

Hint - Paul died by execution. Peter died by execution as did almost all the Apostles. Only John lived to die a natural death.

Then followed many more centuries of persecution and death of the saints -- including the 1260 years of dark ages persecution identified in Dan 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, and Rev 13.

History shows that your interpretation is incorrect.

So also does a careful review of the Bible on this point.

I've asked you now 3 times to answer this question, you have refused to do so. I can only assume you can't. Paul promised the Thessalonians relief from their REAL, PRESENT persecution at His coming. If His coming did not occur then he either lied to the Thessalonians or he did not really know what he was talking about. Was he not speaking to a specific people about a specific situation? Was he just speaking generally to all the church throughout all of history about a non specific persecution?

What this has to do with when John or anyone else died is beyond me.

The releif given at the 2nd coming - is the end of sin,

Straight from Daniel 9 and again you have the 70th week of Daniel fulfilled at the end of the 1000 year MK.

Christ took away sin:
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Peter says that all the saints in all of time are to "fix their hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ".

Where does Peter say this?

I heard one once say, " we stumble over the obvious in search of the obscure".

 

[BobRyan]

So where does Paul say the entire church will fall away? You make that assumption but where does Paul state such a thing?

In 2Thess 2 -- Paul argues that the sainst are not to be deceived into expecting the 2nd coming UNTIL they see that future historic falling away (Dark Ages) AND the working of Satan with "all power" working with signs and wonders (events still future even to our own day!)

As noted already regarding the Dark Ages -

===========================
1. Your objection only works if we revise history such that hindus or budhists eventually evolve into "Catholics". Such is not the case historically as the origin for the Catholic church. Historically it is the Christian church that goes into apostasy.

Just as Paul predicts in Acts 20 "From among your own selves" wolves arise teaching false doctrine.

Just as Paul directs Timothy in 1Tim 1 that he is to remain in Ephesus and combat the false doctrines arising from within.

Just as Paul directs Titus in Titus one -- to put down the false doctrines arising there.

And so when Paul says in 2Thess 2 that in the FUTURE this results in a "falling away" he is not talking about the present situation because that can hardly be an argument against someone sending a letter to them saying the "coming of Christ has occurred already".

========================

Clearly - neither Titus nor Timothy were dealing with the dark-ages level of apostacy where the world wide Christian church had gone into such error as to persecute the saints by executing them (actuall Lateran IV says "Exterminating" ).

Grasshopper

He did say this:

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

The minor division WITHIN a local church is nothing compared to the historic apostacy predicted in 2Thess 2 and seen in history.

The point remains.

John and Paul were both shown the future -- and it was massively "larger" than internal disputes that could be found a one or two local churches in the first century A.D.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Eric B

This is called confirmation bias. You piece together events, like a puzzle piece, and it seems to fit.

Bob said

In Matt 24 Jesus calls it recognizing the signs of the times "so WHEN you SEE all these SIGNS know that it is near".

1. Labeling that language "Confirmation bias" does nothing to change the point.

2. The careful reader will note that in each case above - secular authorities recognize the sign given as changing the course of history by starting some entire branch of science and study for mankind - since the event is so hard to "ignore" -- it is so massively significant EVEN to secular auhorities.

Thus the point remains.

Again, what does "near" mean? I was told it means imminent by one person, is that your definition as well? How could James and other NT writers then claim 30 years later that it was near?

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

On one hand you say they will know it is near when they see the signs but then you ignore the NT writers when they proclaim it is near 30 years later. If it was near in AD50 then the signs must have been fulfilled by that time.

Paul argues in 2Thess 2 not to be deceived into thinking it had taken place and he includes not only the great catestrophic falling away of the dark ages - but also the appearance of one who is in accord with Satan working with "all power, signs and wonders" - events still future even to our own day.

John and Paul both predict that God applies restraint to mankind and even to Satan himself until the end when all the saints are sealed. (Rev 7 and 2Thess 2).

You are confusing the point that all Bible writers present the coming of the Lord as something that all saints are to look toward -- just as the saints of the OT constantly prayed for and hoped that the Messiah would be born in their own generation.

But Daniel 9 had already mapped out a 490 year timeline pointing to the coming of the Messiah.

Daniel 8 had arleady pointed out a 2300 year timeline pointing to the closing events regarding the end of the world.

Both timelines start on the same date.

Daniel 9 perfectly fits the history of the coming of the Messiah.

Daniel 8 perfectly allows for the 1260 years of dark ages persecution (specified in Dan 7 and Rev 11, 12, 13). History being what it is -- it is far too late "not to notice". That part of the book of Daniel was unsealed in Rev 5.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The 1260 years of dark ages end in the 18th century. The 18th and 19th century we see the signs predicted in Rev 6 and Matt 24 had taken place.

Lisbon EarthQuake – November 1, 1755

Dark Day of May 19, 1780
(Sun is dark, moon turns to blood color)

Stars Fall: November 13th, 1833

===========================================
The secular authorities that attest to these historic events have no interest at all in the "historicist method" yet they all declare that these events were historically remarkable.


Lisbon EarthQuake
Encyclopedia Americana, article `Lisbon', note (ed. 1831).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake
The 1755 Lisbon earthquake, also known as the Great Lisbon Earthquake, took place on 1 November 1755, at around 9:40 in the morning.[1] The earthquake was followed by a tsunami and fires, which caused near-total destruction of Lisbon in the Kingdom of Portugal, and adjoining areas. Geologists today estimate the Lisbon earthquake approached magnitude 9 on the Moment magnitude scale, with an epicenter in the Atlantic Ocean about 200 km (120 mi) west-southwest of Cape St. Vincent. Estimates place the death toll in Lisbon alone between 10,000 and 100,000 people,[2] making it one of the most destructive earthquakes in history.[/U]
The earthquake accentuated political tensions in the Kingdom of Portugal and profoundly disrupted the country's eighteenth-century colonial ambitions. The event was widely discussed and dwelt upon by European Enlightenmentphilosophers, and inspired major developments in theodicy and in the philosophy of the sublime. As the first earthquake studied scientifically for its effects over a large area, it led to the birth of modern seismology and earthquake engineering.[/U]


Dark Day –
Noah Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, Vocabulary of the Names of Noted ... Persons and Places, ed. 1869, 1882 & 1883.
"The Dark Day, May 19, 1780 -- so-called on account of a remarkable[/U] darkness on that day extending over all New England ... The obscuration began about ten o'clock in the morning, and continued till the middle of the next night, but with difference and duration in different places ... The true cause of this remarkable phenomena is not known."[/U]

Stars Fall
One of the greatest meteor storms ever seen took place nearly 166 years ago over the eastern United States. During the 4 hours which preceded dawn on Nov. 13, 1833,
…
The storm marked the discovery of the annual Leonids meteor shower and is widely regarded as the birth of modern meteor astronomy.
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast22jun99_2.htm

How instructive that the "Same sequence" seen in history is predicted by John in Rev 6.

Rev 6
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood[/b];[/B]
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.[/B]
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Interesting about Rev. 6, it too has a 1st century context:

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

On the contrary Nothing in the post-cross first century comes even close to what we see regarding the earthquake, the stars falling, the dark day ending with "the sky split apart" (still future) etc written in Rev 6.

Rev 6 tells us that the "rocks and moutains fall on us" statements are in context and direct response to "Sky split apart" at the 2nd coming. Details impossible to ignore.

Grasshopper

It is a quote from Is.2:10

Jesus also quotes this passage from Is. 2 and applies it to 1st century Jews!

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

In both Matt 24 and Luke 23 Christ combines the destruction of Jerusalem with the 2nd coming signs -- because the disciples ask in response to his statment about the destruction of the temple "When shall these things be AND WHAT will be the signs of your coming?" Matt 24:3

The key flaw in the preterist model you use is that it terminates the question of Matt 24:3 in the middle thus ignoring both history and the plain statements in the text that seem to refute the "Jerusalem only" narrow view

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Grasshopper]

And so when Paul says in 2Thess 2 that in the FUTURE this results in a "falling away" he is not talking about the present situation because that can hardly be an argument against someone sending a letter to them saying the "coming of Christ has occurred already".

If the coming of Christ is a cataclymic event like you say, then why would the Thessalonians think it was past?

clearly - neither Titus nor Timothy were dealing with the dark-ages level of apostacy where the world wide Christian church had gone into such error

You have yet to prove Paul had the entire world wide church in mind. You keep making this assumption but have yet to prove it.

The minor division WITHIN a local church is nothing compared to the historic apostacy predicted in 2Thess 2 and seen in history.

Again, nothing but assumptions read into the text.

John and Paul were both shown the future

So you finally inadvertantly answer one of my questions. Paul did see and know the future and yet he told the Thessalonians they would receive relief from their persecution at Christ's coming. So Paul lied to the Thessalonians.

You never answered the question, you said this:

In Matt 24 Jesus calls it recognizing the signs of the times "so WHEN you SEE all these SIGNS know that it is near".


You never told me what "near" means. Nor do you explain if it differs from the near of James 5:8.

But Daniel 9 had already mapped out a 490 year timeline pointing to the coming of the Messiah.

Daniel 9 predicts things that you say don't happen till the end of the 1000 year MK. Another question you failed to address.

Daniel 8 had arleady pointed out a 2300 year timeline pointing to the closing events regarding the end of the world.

Where does Daniel 8 speak of the end of the world? For someone who claims to be a historicist, you don't no much about Daniel 8 and its historical fulfillment.

On the contrary Nothing in the post-cross first century comes even close to what we see regarding the earthquake, the stars falling, the dark day ending with "the sky split apart" (still future) etc written in Rev 6

Again, you have zero understanding of how this type of language is used throughout the Bible. Go back and reads Gill's comments and actually look up the verses he references.

Rev 6 tells us that the "rocks and moutains fall on us" statements are in context and direct response to "Sky split apart" at the 2nd coming. Details impossible to ignore.

What OT passage is Rev 6 quoting from? Why does Jesus use the same quotation in Luke 23:37? Who is Jesus speaking to when he quotes the passage? You can pretend it's not there but it is.You are so locked in to your position you can't even hear objections.

Secondly you continue to ignore the language of the OT. Micah uses similar language to describe the Assyrians coming in judgment on Israel.


Mic 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
Mic 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
Mic 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Mic 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

I guess if one ignores how the Bible uses language one could prove anything.

 

[Grasshopper]

In both Matt 24 and Luke 23 Christ combines the destruction of Jerusalem with the 2nd coming signs

No he doesn't. It is your misunderstanding that causes the problem Not Jesus' jumbling of events.
Who are the Daughters of Jerusalem in your historicist view? Evidently not Jewish women.

because the disciples ask in response to his statment about the destruction of the temple

When shall these things be AND WHAT will be the signs of your coming?" Matt 24:3

Pretty clear, they associated the fall of the Temple with His parousia.
Mark puts it this way:

Mar 13:1 And as he is going forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith to him, `Teacher, see! what stones! and what buildings!'
Mar 13:2 and Jesus answering said to him, `Seest thou these great buildings? there may not be left a stone upon a stone, that may not be thrown down.'
Mar 13:3 And as he is sitting at the mount of the Olives, over-against the temple, Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, were questioning him by himself,
Mar 13:4 `Tell us when these things shall be? and what is the sign when all these may be about to be fulfilled?'

The key flaw in the preterist model you use is that it terminates the question of Matt 24:3 in the middle thus ignoring both history and the plain statements in the text that seem to refute the "Jerusalem only" narrow view

Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Fits perfectly in the preterist framework. History tells us the Jewish age did in fact end in AD70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
Interestingly you completely ignored the Revelation discussion. Why?

 

[Michaeneu]

A few years ago, I was battling Grasshopper (and Eschatologist) hard, in favor of futurism (or at least a dual fulfillment that acknowledged that AD70 was an immediate preliminary fulfillment; but that the "real deal" was yet future), but it's true that we do have to do a lot of stretching to get around some of these time statements. Even back then, as I argued, the whole (some of you standing here" was always one of those bugging "unanswered questions" that we were never able to ever really work out.
I had admired the clearness of the concept of "time statements".

Now, I see that some of the interpretations are downright awful.
Regarding "1000 years is as a day", one thing we should remember, is that in this case, God is not speaking those prophecies to Himself! He's giving them to US. And to us, and thousand years is NOT as a day. So that principle would have no reason to apply to the prophetic time statements.

Then, the notion that God is trying to "keep us on our toes" by telling us soon. But that is making God a liar. To DELIBERATELY tell us soon, when he knows it is not. May be a sort of "good" intention; but sorry; it crossses the line of truthfulness. (And did it even work? Just look at Church history! "Soon" would only be effective in keeping people on their toes, if it really was soon!)

[FONT=&quot]Hey Eric,

I'd like to lend a hand to Bob so just let me warn you about the Preterist point of view.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The greater part of the Old Testament prophets declared an imminent day of the Lord and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation or the ultimate restoration of Israel and pacification of its enemies; they made no note of the great passage of time between the two events. The best description I’ve found of this doctrine, which is also found in the aforementioned text in Deuteronomy, is “prophetic eschatological intrusion”. Let me quoted from Deuteronomy:

“To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.” Deut 32:35KJV

I’ll quote from John Gill, Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke on their commentary as to what vengeance and calamity was “at hand” and to come upon Israel in “haste”, the calamity Moses was referring to. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

John Gill-INTRODUCTION TO DEUTERONOMY 32
… wherefore, for the rejection of the Messiah and the, persecution of his followers, they would be abhorred of God, De 32:19; who would show his resentment by the rejection of them, by the calling of the Gentiles, and by bringing the nation of the Romans upon them, De 32:20…. whereby utter ruin and destruction in all its shapes would be brought upon them, De 32:22; and, were it not for the insolence of their adversaries, would be entirely destroyed, being such a foolish and unwise people, which appears by not observing what the enemies of the Messiah themselves allow, that there is no rock like him, whom they despised, De 32:26; which enemies are described, and the vengeance reserved for them pointed out, De 32:32; and the song closed with promises of grace and mercy to the Lord's people, and wrath and ruin to his and their enemies, on which account all are called upon to rejoice in the latter day, De 32:36

Matthew Henry-DEUTERONOMY CHAP. XXXII.
In this chapter we have….4. A prediction of the wasting destroying judgments which God would bring upon them for their sins, in which God is here justified by the many aggravations of their impieties (v. 19-33). 5. A promise of the destruction of their enemies and oppressors at last, and the glorious deliverance of a remnant of Israel (v. 36-43).

Adam Clarke-Deuteronomy Chapter 32
The prophetical and historical song of Moses, showing forth the nature of God's doctrine…. Gracious purposes in their behalf, mixed with reproaches for their manifold idolatries, and threatenings against his enemies, 36-42. A promise of salvation to the Gentiles…

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Clearly, the expositors above make a mockery of Preterism’s paradigm built upon temporal indicators. According to Gill the calamity that was “at hand” and coming upon them in “haste” were the events of 70 AD and the calling of the Gentiles—almost 1500 years hence. According to Henry the calamity was inclusive of all judgment upon Israel and their ultimate restoration and pacification of its enemies; the latter having yet to take place. And Clarke also confirms the imminent judgments predicted by Moses as encompassing the blessings and curses that were a result of the salvation to the Gentiles at the first advent. Accordingly, Yahweh and His prophets have a different interpretation of “imminence” than Preterism. Obviously, the scope of temporal indicators must conform to Yahweh’s perception of time noted in 2 Peter 3:8 and not Preterism’s paradigm.

Zephaniah forewarned Judah that the day of the Lord is at hand—the imminent judgment at the hands of the Chaldeans (Zep. 1:7) and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation, the ultimate restoration of Israel and the pacification of its enemies (Zep. 1:2-18; 3:8). Here we have prophetic eschatological intrusion, the prediction of the distant consummation of the Messianic kingdom intruding into an imminent event, which is clearly the doctrine of Deuteronomy 32:2 and a hermeneutic. Clearly this method of the prophets is typological and associated the day of the Lord in their time with the eschatological, antitypical day predicted in the New Testament. Joel, Amos, Isaiah as well as other Old Testament prophets verify that temporal indicators, such as “near” or “at hand”, are not reliable elements upon which to build eschatological doctrine (2 Peter 3:8-9). (This also supports that Historicalism and the “year for a day” principle.)

The New Testament perspective of the day of the Lord is the future. The only reconciliation of the two perspectives concerning the day of the Lord in both the Old and New Testaments is in interpreting the ancient events as typical of the anagogical or eschatological events at the return of Christ, which also underscores the event in 70 AD as typological. This reconciliation precludes multiple fulfillments such as any and all tribulations which the people of Yahweh may face at the hands of the world, which has been the bane of many of the paradigms including classical Historicalism. Where it is upheld that Yahweh chastises the sons and daughters (Heb. 12:6) manifest as hardships, the intercession dubbed the day of the Lord represents the definite time of Yahweh’s judgment drawing a dispensation to an end as the scriptures verify; from our perspective the previous events such as 70 AD are shadows of the theophany at Christ’s return. The judgment that preceded the transition from the first temple age to the second temple age and again at the first advent, the transition from the second temple to that built without hands were typical of the anagogical day of the Lord. This reasoning is also supported by the Olivet Discourse and Christ’s use of the same methodology of the prophets (Matt. 5:17). He also linked the nearness of a typological judgment upon Jerusalem, the events of 70 AD, with his distant eschatological return and this is substantiated by the event concerning the times of the Gentiles.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Michael[/FONT]

 

[Grasshopper]

“To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.” Deut 32:35KJV

Your quoting from the Song of Moses. It was not suggesting the events were "at hand" in that day but would be "at hand" in Israel's latter days. I'll quote Don Preston who has written extensively on this:

The Song of Moses is incredible. It is also undeniably another example of "projected imminence." Notice verses 7f. God calls on Israel to look back on "the years of many generations" when He had divided the land and given Israel her inheritance. Well, Israel had not yet entered the land, had not yet received her inheritance, and had not even existed as a nation for many generations! So, God is projecting Israel into the future, telling her what her "last end shall be" (v. 20,35). And notice that in v. 34f God reiterates the principle of Dt. 4:27f when He says that Israel would sin (cf. she would become utterly corrupt (31:29f, thus filling the measure of her sin, and on this see Matthew 23:29f). When she sinned "in due time" her judgment would hasten on her. It would be at hand.

So much more to be said about the Song, but this will suffice to show that projected imminence is undeniably present in the text and in many others. But, let me say again that we never find "projected imminence" in the New Testament books, and that is incredibly significant! When people begin to see that there is no substantive way to negate the time statements of scripture, it will become more and more necessary for them to find the answers to the "time problem." Only Covenant Eschatology has the solution to this incredible problem that has, and continues to plague Christianity.

I’ll quote from John Gill, Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke on their commentary as to what vengeance and calamity was "at hand" and to come upon Israel in "haste", the calamity Moses was referring to.

Since I too have e-sword let me quote Albert Barnes on this verse:

Rather: "Vengeance is mine and recompence, at the time when their foot slideth.

The "at hand" is tied to the time when "their foot slideth".

Clearly, the expositors above make a mockery of Preterism’s paradigm built upon temporal indicators.

Really? You obviously haven't read much of Gill, Clarke and Henry. Lets see how they mock some NT passages.

Here is how Gill mocks preterism in Matthew 26:64:


Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner, Mat_24:27. Though this may also be understood of Christ's second coming to judgment, at the last day; when as he went up to heaven in a cloud, he will return, and come also in the clouds of heaven; see Act_1:9Rev_1:7, when he will be seen by the eyes of all, good and bad; and when this sanhedrim, before whom he now was, will see him also, and confess that he is Lord and Christ, and the Son of God. Though the former clause seems to have regard to what would quickly come to pass, and what they should soon observe, and be convinced of;


Gill equates "coming on the clouds" with Christ coming in judgment on Jerusalem in AD70. Sounds pretty preteristic to me.

How about some more Gill:

Mat 24:29


Immediately after the tribulation of those days,.... That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment,


So I don't know your definition of preterism but mine sure fits what Gill said.

Now let's look at Clarke commenting on the same verse:

Immediately after the tribulation, etc. - Commentators generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ’s coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened - brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both.

Gee, look at 2 Peter 3 with Clarke's interpretation of Matthew 24:29 in mind. Still think he mocks preterism?

How about Clarke on Revelation 1:7? Lets see him mock preterism yet again:

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds - This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.
And all kindreds of the earth - All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.
Even so, Amen - Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt.

Now let's look at Matthew Henry.

His comments on "this generation" from the Olivet Discourse:

As to these things, the wars, seductions, and persecutions, here foretold, and especially the ruin of the Jewish nation; "This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled (v. 34); there are those now alive, that shall see Jerusalem destroyed, and the Jewish church brought to an end.’’ Because it might seem strange, he backs it with a solemn asseveration; "Verily, I say unto you. You may take my word for it, these things are at the door.’’

Here are his comments on James 5:8-9,

"The coming of the Lord to punish the wicked Jews was then very nigh, when James wrote this epistle; and, whenever the patience and other graces of his people are tried in an extraordinary manner, the certainty of Christ's coming as Judge, and the nearness of it, should establish their hearts. The Judge is now a great deal nearer, in his coming to judge the world, than when this epistle was written, nearer by above seventeen hundred years; and therefore this should have the greater effect upon us. "

The coming of the Lord to punish the wicked Jews was then very nigh, when James wrote this epistle." (Matthew Henry, Vol. 6, p. 996).

Before making bold claims that these men mock preterism, you might want to actually read some of their comments.

 

[Grasshopper]

Zephaniah forewarned Judah that the day of the Lord is at hand—the imminent judgment at the hands of the Chaldeans (Zep. 1:7)

So "at hand" really meant "at hand". Seems you've defeated your own argument. Not only that you admit "the day of the Lord" occured. The "at hand" event occured 40 years later. Hmmm, makes you think maybe Mark's at hand was of a similar time period:

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation, the ultimate restoration of Israel and the pacification of its enemies (Zep. 1:2-18; 3:8). Here we have prophetic eschatological intrusion,

No, what we have here is slicing and dicing of scripture.

Here is what Clarke said, (Remember, the same Clarke you quote earlier)

Zep 1:14
The great day of the Lord is near - It commenced with the death of the good king Josiah, who was slain by Pharaoh-necho at Megiddo, and continued to the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar.

Clearly this method of the prophets is typological and associated the day of the Lord in their time with the eschatological, antitypical day predicted in the New Testament. Joel, Amos, Isaiah as well as other Old Testament prophets verify that temporal indicators, such as "near" or "at hand", are not reliable elements upon which to build eschatological doctrine (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Prove it, wanna start with Isaiah 13?

The New Testament perspective of the day of the Lord is the future.

Yes, future to those who wrote the Bible.

The only reconciliation of the two perspectives concerning the day of the Lord in both the Old and New Testaments is in interpreting the ancient events as typical of the anagogical or eschatological events at the return of Christ, which also underscores the event in 70 AD as typological.

It needs no reconciliation, unless you continue to hold to a futuristic eschatology then you do indeed need to twist scripture like a pretzel and make types, types of types.

Even with all this, there are time indicators all over the NT that don't use the words "near" or "at hand" to make the case of a 1st century fulfillment.

 

[Eric B]

1. Your objection only works if we revise history such that hindus or budhists eventually evolve into "Catholics".

Huh? That makes no sense at all!

Such is not the case historically as the origin for the Catholic church. Historically it is the Christian church that goes into apostasy.

And so when Paul says in 2Thess 2 that in the FUTURE this results in a "falling away" he is not talking about the present situation because that can hardly be an argument against someone sending a letter to them saying the "coming of Christ has occurred already".

Just stating the obvious here that I suppose we all agree with.

Never does he say "Ephesus has fallen" in fact Timothy is the pastor at Ephesus. Never does Paul say to Titus "the church has fallen away".
The dark ages of apstacy were still ahead of the christian church - history bears this out.
It did not happen in the first century.
Acts 20 predicts that men will arise teaching false doctrine.
That principle over time - gave us the dark ages. Long after the first century A.D.
Even the Church of Galatia "had not fallen" - though it had division within.

Who said anything about the Churches being already "fallen' when Paul wrote. Paul said the mystery of iniquity was already working in the Church, and he was opposing it, but it was AFTER Paul wrote that the falling away really erupted. And a lot of this was recorded by Josephus.

The act of "some falling" in the first century is still not the general dark ages falling away that history reveals as lasting for over 1260 nears.

Falling away from what in the dark ages? The Church was already pretty corrupted into the "Catholic" state by whatever date that is you begin the 1260 years. (500's?) And that began right when Paul said it was, not centuries later.

Quote:
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Thess 2 is speaking of a time when as we see predicted in Rev 7 - the Holy Spirit no longer restrains iniquity -- the 4 angels no longer restrain the winds of strife.

In Matt 24 Jesus calls it recognizing the signs of the times "so WHEN you SEE all these SIGNS know that it is near".
1. Labeling that language "Confirmation bias" does nothing to change the point.

Read Josephus, and you'll see the restraint removed in Jerusalem in the war. It surpasses anything in the dark ages, though it was very brief, and later swept under the rug of history.

2. The careful reader will note that in each case above - secular authorities recognize the sign given as changing the course of history by starting some entire branch of science and study for mankind - since the event is so hard to "ignore" -- it is so massively significant EVEN to secular auhorities.

OK, but this is not the criteria of biblical fulfillment.

The argument in scripture as found in Rev 6 is not that this is the "biggest earthquake ever" -- just that it is a "great earthquake" -- and science today estimates Lisbon at about a 9.0 would still call this a great earthquake with origins NOT in the middle of the ocean or remote desert.
As the source points out - the event was so significant it BEGAN the science of monitoring earthquakes.

But what is Lisbon in prophetic significance? The prophecies were all centered on Jerusalem, or the Holy Land. That ares is what is mentioned several times in the rest of the prophecies.
That shows that this popular system of interpretation is purely Eurocentric. (Just like the shroud Christ wore, the cup Jesus drank out of, etc. were all supposed to be in Rome). It's all about Europe (and later, America). But Europe was just another "gentile" land like Affrica and the rest of Asia.

 

[Eric B]

Hey Eric,

I'd like to lend a hand to Bob so just let me warn you about the Preterist point of view.
The greater part of the Old Testament prophets declared an imminent day of the Lord and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation or the ultimate restoration of Israel and pacification of its enemies; they made no note of the great passage of time between the two events. The best description I’ve found of this doctrine, which is also found in the aforementioned text in Deuteronomy, is “prophetic eschatological intrusion”. Let me quoted from Deuteronomy:

“To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.” Deut 32:35KJV

I’ll quote from John Gill, Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke on their commentary as to what vengeance and calamity was “at hand” and to come upon Israel in “haste”, the calamity Moses was referring to.

Clearly, the expositors above make a mockery of Preterism’s paradigm built upon temporal indicators. According to Gill the calamity that was “at hand” and coming upon them in “haste” were the events of 70 AD and the calling of the Gentiles—almost 1500 years hence. According to Henry the calamity was inclusive of all judgment upon Israel and their ultimate restoration and pacification of its enemies; the latter having yet to take place. And Clarke also confirms the imminent judgments predicted by Moses as encompassing the blessings and curses that were a result of the salvation to the Gentiles at the first advent. Accordingly, Yahweh and His prophets have a different interpretation of “imminence” than Preterism. Obviously, the scope of temporal indicators must conform to Yahweh’s perception of time noted in 2 Peter 3:8 and not Preterism’s paradigm.

Zephaniah forewarned Judah that the day of the Lord is at hand—the imminent judgment at the hands of the Chaldeans (Zep. 1:7) and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation, the ultimate restoration of Israel and the pacification of its enemies (Zep. 1:2-18; 3:8). Here we have prophetic eschatological intrusion, the prediction of the distant consummation of the Messianic kingdom intruding into an imminent event, which is clearly the doctrine of Deuteronomy 32:2 and a hermeneutic. Clearly this method of the prophets is typological and associated the day of the Lord in their time with the eschatological, antitypical day predicted in the New Testament. Joel, Amos, Isaiah as well as other Old Testament prophets verify that temporal indicators, such as “near” or “at hand”, are not reliable elements upon which to build eschatological doctrine (2 Peter 3:8-9). (This also supports that Historicalism and the “year for a day” principle.)

The New Testament perspective of the day of the Lord is the future. The only reconciliation of the two perspectives concerning the day of the Lord in both the Old and New Testaments is in interpreting the ancient events as typical of the anagogical or eschatological events at the return of Christ, which also underscores the event in 70 AD as typological. This reconciliation precludes multiple fulfillments such as any and all tribulations which the people of Yahweh may face at the hands of the world, which has been the bane of many of the paradigms including classical Historicalism. Where it is upheld that Yahweh chastises the sons and daughters (Heb. 12:6) manifest as hardships, the intercession dubbed the day of the Lord represents the definite time of Yahweh’s judgment drawing a dispensation to an end as the scriptures verify; from our perspective the previous events such as 70 AD are shadows of the theophany at Christ’s return. The judgment that preceded the transition from the first temple age to the second temple age and again at the first advent, the transition from the second temple to that built without hands were typical of the anagogical day of the Lord. This reasoning is also supported by the Olivet Discourse and Christ’s use of the same methodology of the prophets (Matt. 5:17). He also linked the nearness of a typological judgment upon Jerusalem, the events of 70 AD, with his distant eschatological return and this is substantiated by the event concerning the times of the Gentiles.

Michael

I used to argue this stuff about "at hand" in the OT not being literally soon. And it was a great point, except for one thing.
Christ was very clear that people standing before him would live to see the event that marked His return. That is more than just a "temporal indicator", because not the limit is set by human lifetime. There is no room for any interpretation. 2 Pet. 3:8 and "YHWH's perception" do not change it. Christ was speaking to mortal humans, not Himself or the Father.
And you yourself said multiple fulfillments were precluded, so you cannot say Christ was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem for them only, but the rest of it would be thousands of years later. By Christ's time, the Temple institution had become the adversary prophesied in those OT passages, and in AD70, they suffered the vengeance and were removed. They can no longer exclude anyone from the Kingdom.

 

[BobRyan]

grasshopper said

Bob said

. nothing like that of the dark ages apostacy - prayers to the dead, persecution of the saints by the 10's of millions.

Apostacy: Turning or falling away from true gospel teachings as individuals or as a people.

The RCC was a false religion. In order to be an apostacy you must first have believed the true Gospel. You can't fall away from something you never believed.

Secondly you ignore the immediate context of apostacy as found throughout the NT.

Bob responds to the post above ---

1. Your objection only works if we revise history such that hindus or budhists eventually evolve into "Catholics". Such is not the case historically as the origin for the Catholic church. Historically it is the Christian church that goes into apostasy.

Just as Paul predicts in Acts 20 "From among your own selves" wolves arise teaching false doctrine.

Just as Paul directs Timothy in 1Tim 1 that he is to remain in Ephesus and combat the false doctrines arising from within.

Just as Paul directs Titus in Titus one -- to put down the false doctrines arising there.

And so when Paul says in 2Thess 2 that in the FUTURE this results in a "falling away" he is not talking about the present situation because that can hardly be an argument against someone sending a letter to them saying the "coming of Christ has occurred already".

Just stating the obvious here that I suppose we all agree with.

Huh? That makes no sense at all!

That was my point. Changing history would be needed to presume the point in the post that says the RCC did not have its origins in the Christian church - as in the quote above..."The RCC was a false religion. In order to be an apostacy you must first have believed the true Gospel. You can't fall away from something you never believed. "

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

I’ll quote from John Gill, Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke on their commentary as to what vengeance and calamity was “at hand” and to come upon Israel in “haste”, the calamity Moses was referring to.



Clearly, the expositors above make a mockery of Preterism’s paradigm built upon temporal indicators. According to Gill the calamity that was “at hand” and coming upon them in “haste” were the events of 70 AD and the calling of the Gentiles—almost 1500 years hence. According to Henry the calamity was inclusive of all judgment upon Israel and their ultimate restoration and pacification of its enemies; the latter having yet to take place. And Clarke also confirms the imminent judgments predicted by Moses as encompassing the blessings and curses that were a result of the salvation to the Gentiles at the first advent. Accordingly, Yahweh and His prophets have a different interpretation of “imminence” than Preterism. Obviously, the scope of temporal indicators must conform to Yahweh’s perception of time noted in 2 Peter 3:8 and not Preterism’s paradigm.

Zephaniah forewarned Judah that the day of the Lord is at hand—the imminent judgment at the hands of the Chaldeans (Zep. 1:7) and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation, the ultimate restoration of Israel and the pacification of its enemies (Zep. 1:2-18; 3:8). Here we have prophetic eschatological intrusion, the prediction of the distant consummation of the Messianic kingdom intruding into an imminent event, which is clearly the doctrine of Deuteronomy 32:2 and a hermeneutic.

Another example of that is found in Isaiah 13 where the upcoming destruction of Judah by Babylon is interrupted with an account of the destruction of all mankind by God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Never does he say "Ephesus has fallen" in fact Timothy is the pastor at Ephesus. Never does Paul say to Titus "the church has fallen away".
The dark ages of apstacy were still ahead of the christian church - history bears this out.
It did not happen in the first century.
Acts 20 predicts that men will arise teaching false doctrine.
That principle over time - gave us the dark ages. Long after the first century A.D.
Even the Church of Galatia "had not fallen" - though it had division within.

Eric
Who said anything about the Churches being already "fallen' when Paul wrote.

Well... certainly not me.

Paul said the mystery of iniquity was already working in the Church, and he was opposing it, but it was AFTER Paul wrote that the falling away really erupted.

Agreed - historians record this in the form of over 1260 years of the "dark ages" where upwards of 50 million saints were killed.

And a lot of this was recorded by Josephus.

Josephus' account barely scratches the surface of the extent of the many centuries long apostacy that followed the NT authors.

And never does he get to the 2Thess 2 events surrounding the miracle working power of satan that is still YET to appear. Nor does he even remotely touch the global "every eye shall see him" and "all tribes of the earth shall mourn" and "as lightning from east to west" and "sun darkened" events of Matt 24.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Grasshopper]

Never does he say "Ephesus has fallen" in fact Timothy is the pastor at Ephesus. Never does Paul say to Titus "the church has fallen away".

Since you really don't want to answer questions, I won't waste my time asking them. But show me where Paul says the church will fall away. Meaning the entire church as you believe.

 

[RAdam]

There is so much misunderstanding of the book of Revelation and I think the reason why is because people don't read the book of Revelation as biblical prophecy. The book is written in the style of biblical prophecy, that is to say OT prophecy. So one must study OT prophecy. Now, you'll notice that OT prophecy typically had a close-at-hand fullfillment and a far away fullfillment. It always meant something to the people it was given to. A good example of this is the prophecy of Isaiah which is filled with prophecies of Jesus Christ, the gospel, and the church, yet those are typically pictured through the deliverance of the Jews from their enemies in those days. It meant something to them immediately, and ultimately. Cyrus in Isaiah 45 is a picture of Christ, yet also a prophecy of the Jews deliverance from Babylon.

In like manner, the book of Revelation meant something to first century Christians under persecution, yet also has relation to us today. People who try to project either only short term or only long term fullfillment onto that book typically mess up.

One must also remember this: to us history is seen as linear and we typically think of things with one fullfillment. However, in the East history is seen as cyclicle, with similar things occuring again and again. For instance, they would read prophecy of a great falling away from the faith and see several eras of large scale apostacy and it would make perfect sense to them.

Matthew 24 should be read this way. It is about the fall of Jerusalem and the ultimate second coming of Christ. The first is a picture of the second, and the Jewish Christians that read that understood that.

 

[Grasshopper]

Matthew 24 should be read this way. It is about the fall of Jerusalem and the ultimate second coming of Christ. The first is a picture of the second, and the Jewish Christians that read that understood that.

Then you agree that the "coming of Christ on the clouds" was a 1st century occurance and was speaking of the Destruction of Jerusalem. You must also agree then that the great whore of Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem. Now since you claim the Jewish Christians understood these things, then when Paul and the other NT writers wrote of things being "at hand" and "near" then they were speaking of the Fall of Jerusalem not some event 1000s of years in the future.

Now when Luke was writing his version of Matthew 24 he wrote this:

Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

All things written would refer to the OT writings of the Prophets. So all things wriiten in the OT would be fullfilled in the events of AD70. Now you say "all things written" will be fulfilled again?