And here is a good example of that.
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American Sacred Cow #1 - Military Pay
- Thread starter J.D.
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And here is a good example of that.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
Funny you should mention that. My company is the 95th Sapper Company "Wolfpack". There is somewhat of a pack mentality. And by somewhat, I mean that it is very apparent in some areas, but not so much others. Our unofficial motto is from Rudyard Kipling - "The strength of the wolf is the pack, and the strength of the pack is the wolf."
It is apparent in areas such as sticking up for each other. If you mess with one of us, you mess with all 200+ of us. That's in fights, "trash talking" in sports, physical challenges, etc. In that way, there is very much a pack mentality. Another way it is evident is when one of us is hurt, especially if they have to be sent home. The company rallies around that person and supports them and their family.
On the other hand, personal matters remain personal matters. As an NCO, I do my duty and am there if my soldier needs help. But we don't air our dirty laundry. Handle it at the lowest level possible, and only escalate things if they have to be.
Sappers! 12B all the way!Bro James said:
freeatlast
New Member
Without the high pay we could not fight these unjust wars even with a draft.
saturneptune
New Member
"We" have never fought a war, in fact, "we" have not served one day.
freeatlast
New Member
You must be living in a cave :laugh:
:thumbsup: FAL's attitude in previous posts sure indicate that this is the case.
from http://www.usmm.org/barrons.html
Army-Navy Pay Tops Most Civilians'
Unmarried Private's Income Equivalent to $3,600 Salary
Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly, April 24, 1944
By Malvern Hall Tillitt
Annual "net earned income" of the lowest-paid man in America's armed forces, if single, is more than that of the $3,600-a-year single man in civilian employment. And annual pay of $3,600 is more than the yearly earnings of many tellers in banks or bookkeepers in mercantile establishments or employees in investment houses or pharmacists or engineers in radio operation. It is twice the average pay received by employees of insurance concerns or public utilities or real estate companies. Indeed, Federal income-tax reports show that more than 90 percent of incomes earned by single persons throughout the United States fall below $3,600.
This may evoke a roar of incredulity from the ranks of men in military service drawing bottom pay and a chorus of derisive ha-ha's from $3,600-a-year civilian employees. But it is not to be roared or laughed down -- for it is a provable fact.
Of course, none of these figures is intended to prove that military service is anything but a sacrifice. Without even mentioning the danger to life or the acute discomforts suffered by our men at the front everywhere, every draftee also loses the companionship of his family and gives up several years of his civilian career.
For married men, the economic results of military service do not work out as favorably as they do for single men -- but in reality, they are to be figured as being much more favorable than is generally thought. The average-sized American family whose head has entered the armed forces may be enabled by contributions out of his pay and Government allowances to attain or maintain standards of living comparable with those of families dependent on civilian employment ranging from $1,600 to $3,400 a year. Even without counting on possible advancement of the entrant above the noncommissioned ratings, $3,400 a year is more than the annual income of 80 percent of all the families in the United States.
While, in some instances, the impact of military service of the husband on the family's economic status may be somewhat severe and may result in dislocation of family living habits, the family's economic condition will in many cases be improved.
Unmarried Buck Private May "Net" $420
Let's consider the case of the single man and start with proof of the opening statement. The lowest pay in the Army is the $50 a month; or $600 a year, received by the buck private, while in service within the bounds of the United States. The man may have given up a $3,600-a-year civilian job on entering military service. And, from the figures alone, he may apparently be taking a loss of $3,000 a year.
On reduction of earnings to "net income," the comparison goes into reverse. This fact traces mainly to the major items of subsistence which are provided for men and noncommissioned officers in military service but for which the civilian must pay out of his pocket. In addition, civilians have much higher income taxes to reckon with.
Of course, Army pay is not entirely velvet. Personnel below the commissioned ratings must take care of a number of minor needs and wants out of earnings. On the basis of itemized statements obtained in interviews with selectees In training and oldtimers in service, and with privates, corporals, and sergeants, expenditures out of pocket run at about the same level for men and noncommissioned officers.
Passing by the spendthrift and the tight-wad, and figuring by the month for ordinary spenders, these expenditures include two 50-cent haircuts by barber, $1.50 for laundry, $1.50 for tailor service (pressing and dry-cleaning), -$1.40 for movies, $3 for tobacco, 60 cents for soap, tooth paste, and razor blades, and $4 for other incidentals purchased at commissary or post exchange or outside camp limits. Miscellaneous outlays through the year -- for civilian shoes and repairs, garrison cap, shoe polish, metal polish, and other articles -- may run to $24, or an average of $2 a month.
The enumerated expenditures out of pay, including miscellaneous expenses, add up to $15 a month, or $180 a year -- which leaves the buck private in service within the bounds of the United States with an annual remainder of $420. And this is the measure of his "net" annual income, if he has no other revenues, for Federal income taxes do not apply to Incomes of men in military service below $1,500 -- and above that the serviceman also has his personal exemptions.
Income Compared on Basis of Normal Living
These expenditures do not include the cost of sprees during excursions out of camp on leave, if any, or lavish entertainment of girl friends or losses at "Georgia dominoes." The buck private's net income, as here worked out, simply represents the yearly remainder of earnings during normal training camp life.
Let's compare civilian "net income." Statistics, compiled by the Joint Committee on Internal Revenue for the House Ways and Means Committee in the course of hearings preliminary to enactment of the individual income rates now in effect, show average living cost of single consumers by income groups. The statistics were based on data obtained by exhaustive questioning of thousands of wage-or-salary earners and others with incomes in cities, villages, and rural sections strewn through 30 States.
The expenditures are itemized under 14 heads -- food, housing, clothing, medical care, tobacco, personal care, recreation, automobile, transportation other than auto, furnishings, household operation, reading, education, and other living expenses. At present, the automobile item may be largely eliminated.
A very recent publication by the National Industrial Conference Board, dealing with current changes in cost of food, housing, fuel, and light, clothing and sundries, shows an increase of 11.5 percent in cost of living since the statistics were presented to the House Ways and Means Committee. This advance raises the total of average living costs of single persons with income of $3,600 a year to $2;508 currently. Expenditures for food, housing, clothing, and medical care -- which are provided without charge for men and noncommissioned officers in the Army -- represents $1,183 of this total.
The items of civilian outlay here figured do not include Saturday night binges or orchid pitched entertainment at night clubs or losses at fast play or slow horses.
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Tables did not format well
Army-Navy Pay Tops Most Civilians'
Unmarried Private's Income Equivalent to $3,600 Salary
Barron's National Business and Financial Weekly, April 24, 1944
By Malvern Hall Tillitt
Annual "net earned income" of the lowest-paid man in America's armed forces, if single, is more than that of the $3,600-a-year single man in civilian employment. And annual pay of $3,600 is more than the yearly earnings of many tellers in banks or bookkeepers in mercantile establishments or employees in investment houses or pharmacists or engineers in radio operation. It is twice the average pay received by employees of insurance concerns or public utilities or real estate companies. Indeed, Federal income-tax reports show that more than 90 percent of incomes earned by single persons throughout the United States fall below $3,600.
This may evoke a roar of incredulity from the ranks of men in military service drawing bottom pay and a chorus of derisive ha-ha's from $3,600-a-year civilian employees. But it is not to be roared or laughed down -- for it is a provable fact.
Of course, none of these figures is intended to prove that military service is anything but a sacrifice. Without even mentioning the danger to life or the acute discomforts suffered by our men at the front everywhere, every draftee also loses the companionship of his family and gives up several years of his civilian career.
For married men, the economic results of military service do not work out as favorably as they do for single men -- but in reality, they are to be figured as being much more favorable than is generally thought. The average-sized American family whose head has entered the armed forces may be enabled by contributions out of his pay and Government allowances to attain or maintain standards of living comparable with those of families dependent on civilian employment ranging from $1,600 to $3,400 a year. Even without counting on possible advancement of the entrant above the noncommissioned ratings, $3,400 a year is more than the annual income of 80 percent of all the families in the United States.
While, in some instances, the impact of military service of the husband on the family's economic status may be somewhat severe and may result in dislocation of family living habits, the family's economic condition will in many cases be improved.
Unmarried Buck Private May "Net" $420
Let's consider the case of the single man and start with proof of the opening statement. The lowest pay in the Army is the $50 a month; or $600 a year, received by the buck private, while in service within the bounds of the United States. The man may have given up a $3,600-a-year civilian job on entering military service. And, from the figures alone, he may apparently be taking a loss of $3,000 a year.
On reduction of earnings to "net income," the comparison goes into reverse. This fact traces mainly to the major items of subsistence which are provided for men and noncommissioned officers in military service but for which the civilian must pay out of his pocket. In addition, civilians have much higher income taxes to reckon with.
Of course, Army pay is not entirely velvet. Personnel below the commissioned ratings must take care of a number of minor needs and wants out of earnings. On the basis of itemized statements obtained in interviews with selectees In training and oldtimers in service, and with privates, corporals, and sergeants, expenditures out of pocket run at about the same level for men and noncommissioned officers.
Passing by the spendthrift and the tight-wad, and figuring by the month for ordinary spenders, these expenditures include two 50-cent haircuts by barber, $1.50 for laundry, $1.50 for tailor service (pressing and dry-cleaning), -$1.40 for movies, $3 for tobacco, 60 cents for soap, tooth paste, and razor blades, and $4 for other incidentals purchased at commissary or post exchange or outside camp limits. Miscellaneous outlays through the year -- for civilian shoes and repairs, garrison cap, shoe polish, metal polish, and other articles -- may run to $24, or an average of $2 a month.
The enumerated expenditures out of pay, including miscellaneous expenses, add up to $15 a month, or $180 a year -- which leaves the buck private in service within the bounds of the United States with an annual remainder of $420. And this is the measure of his "net" annual income, if he has no other revenues, for Federal income taxes do not apply to Incomes of men in military service below $1,500 -- and above that the serviceman also has his personal exemptions.
Income Compared on Basis of Normal Living
These expenditures do not include the cost of sprees during excursions out of camp on leave, if any, or lavish entertainment of girl friends or losses at "Georgia dominoes." The buck private's net income, as here worked out, simply represents the yearly remainder of earnings during normal training camp life.
Let's compare civilian "net income." Statistics, compiled by the Joint Committee on Internal Revenue for the House Ways and Means Committee in the course of hearings preliminary to enactment of the individual income rates now in effect, show average living cost of single consumers by income groups. The statistics were based on data obtained by exhaustive questioning of thousands of wage-or-salary earners and others with incomes in cities, villages, and rural sections strewn through 30 States.
The expenditures are itemized under 14 heads -- food, housing, clothing, medical care, tobacco, personal care, recreation, automobile, transportation other than auto, furnishings, household operation, reading, education, and other living expenses. At present, the automobile item may be largely eliminated.
A very recent publication by the National Industrial Conference Board, dealing with current changes in cost of food, housing, fuel, and light, clothing and sundries, shows an increase of 11.5 percent in cost of living since the statistics were presented to the House Ways and Means Committee. This advance raises the total of average living costs of single persons with income of $3,600 a year to $2;508 currently. Expenditures for food, housing, clothing, and medical care -- which are provided without charge for men and noncommissioned officers in the Army -- represents $1,183 of this total.
The items of civilian outlay here figured do not include Saturday night binges or orchid pitched entertainment at night clubs or losses at fast play or slow horses.
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Tables did not format well
J. D.
Right now I'm seething and yet I need to address the utter contempt you hold for the men that are standing the gap for the Idiot section of the population of this great nation, of whom you now represent!
I was never higher tan an E5 but the Officers I served and served with were often found dead after the battle and they were not, except in rare circumstances, killed by the men they fought along side of. The day I enlisted in the Army in 1962, I knew that I could be killed for my ninety-three dollars a month.
These young men, officers and enlisted, deserve any money they are paid today. You, <PA deleted - LE>, have called them over head but the truth is that these, very brave, men are putting their very lives in Harm's way, to give you the right to be stupid. <PA deleted - LE> the draft needs to be reinstated. That's the only way cowards will ever become useful.
Right now I'm seething and yet I need to address the utter contempt you hold for the men that are standing the gap for the Idiot section of the population of this great nation, of whom you now represent!
I was never higher tan an E5 but the Officers I served and served with were often found dead after the battle and they were not, except in rare circumstances, killed by the men they fought along side of. The day I enlisted in the Army in 1962, I knew that I could be killed for my ninety-three dollars a month.
These young men, officers and enlisted, deserve any money they are paid today. You, <PA deleted - LE>, have called them over head but the truth is that these, very brave, men are putting their very lives in Harm's way, to give you the right to be stupid. <PA deleted - LE> the draft needs to be reinstated. That's the only way cowards will ever become useful.
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Billwald
First of all - there is no rank of "Buck Private"
Second, a Pvt E-1 is normally promoted to E-2 within 4 months.
Third, you might be correct in the amount of $ a (single) Pvt earns - but he does not pay rent, or have to buy food. Many things that a civillian would have to pay for, he gets for free - or at a lower cost.
A man who is married does recieve allowance for housing and rations - which are tax free. Housing allowance is based on the costs in the local area.
At Ft Drum, NY an E1-E4 would recieve $1,248/month. A civillian would have to make about $1500 before taxes to equal that amount.
An Airman at Columbus AFB, MS; would recieve $ 909/month
just saying.....
First of all - there is no rank of "Buck Private"
Second, a Pvt E-1 is normally promoted to E-2 within 4 months.
Third, you might be correct in the amount of $ a (single) Pvt earns - but he does not pay rent, or have to buy food. Many things that a civillian would have to pay for, he gets for free - or at a lower cost.
A man who is married does recieve allowance for housing and rations - which are tax free. Housing allowance is based on the costs in the local area.
At Ft Drum, NY an E1-E4 would recieve $1,248/month. A civillian would have to make about $1500 before taxes to equal that amount.
An Airman at Columbus AFB, MS; would recieve $ 909/month
just saying.....
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saturneptune
New Member
I can say amen to this post being true. I went in less than ten years after you, and my pay in boot camp was a net $45 a pay day. (twice a month, E1) It was not until Nixon signed a bill in 1971, I believe, that the base pay was upped about 25%. By that time, I was an E-3, still single, but it made life a lot better. To make a long story short, I extended once, and reenlisted once. By the time I got out, I was an E-6 and had made E-7 but decided it was not worth another two year extension. By the time I got out, my base pay, sea pay, (also known as seperation allowance while deployed), and BAQ netted about $600 per pay day.
Once I got out, I worked at an insurance company three years, and finally was hired by another federal agency, where I stayed until 2009 when I retired because of heart bypass problems. It was a regular retirement.
The reason I give this history is to point out that only in the last few decades has the pay for lower enlisted caught up with prevailing wage. I still think they are paid too little, as how does one measure the cost of risking a human life for liberty and freedom, sometimes with mindless politicians leading the charge?
Before other posters start in on my career, aside from service, I had second jobs along the way as manager at CVS and Dollar General. I also went back to school to get a certificate to substitute teach, which is what I do now.
My hat is off to Carpro, Arbo, Salty, Sapper, Don, Lady Eagle, Ketch, and of course Th1Bill (sorry if I skipped a name) for their service, and in some cases, actual combat that collectively, allows me to express my thoughts here. I think the greatest blessing of all is that I can worship the Lord at a local Baptist Church, or any other I see fit, without fear of physical harm. If there is any persecution here in this nation, it is mental games like making fun, calling names etc.
Everyone has their right to an opinion, and would be all for defending those rights from every being taken away. It is one thing to disagree with the purpose of this or that conflict, and the point is well taken, as we have not had a declared war since the 40s. However, when one turns their attacks to the military itself, and not the civilian leadeship, (for example, Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamera in the Vietnam War), as far as I am concerned, the line has been crossed, and my respect for the opinion of that person is zero.
I have not seen such degrading comments towards our fighting forces as I have here since the return of soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines from Vietnam. There is no excuse for it.
For those that cannot understand, there is a common bond of trust, honor and respect amongst all veterans that is unspoken and lasts forever. They are easy to spot. I have never met Th1Bill, but would trust him with my life in a similar situation. There is just something about the character of someone like that that ever gives me pause for concern.
Most who crticize, and notice I said most not all, have not been in the situation of having served. One cannot experience the feelings involved, the mix of honor, dignity, loyalty along with fear at times along with seperation of family by watching CNN or Saving Private Ryan. It is like taking a picture of the Grand Canyon. One cannot experience the full majasty of that sight without being there and seeing it with your own eyes.
To the point of where we get the money to pay our troops, we could start by stopping all the pet projects for Congressmen in their district in exchange for votes. The number one reason for the Constitutional existence of an armed force is protection of its citizens and our borders. So, in fact, the question was framed wrong. The question is, where is the money going to come from for all the nonsense programs after we pay our troops a fair wage?
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All valid points and all I can add here is to bring into focus the stupidity of the members of our? government. The US pays billions of dollars every year to Pakistan to keep them from selling the atom bomb. Similarly, we pay Syria, Sudan Jordan and on and on and they all hate our guts. Add all of that up and you can see the national debt solution and the money to properly outfit all of our services.
Amen, Bill!!
That's exactly what I've been trying to point out in my posts on this thread.
It's really easy to condemn the people in the military---especially for those who probably never spent a microsecond in it themselves---rather than its civilian leaders....be they Dem OR Rep. Nobody asks us whether we like any/all given conflict in which we are ordered to serve.
So, as I've pointed out many times in my posts here, until you've walked (marched?) a mile or two in our shoes (boots?), it's high time all of you armchair generals cut us poor grunts some slack.
---ktn4eg E-6 (ret.): USAF,1964-69; TN ANG, 1988-2005
That's exactly what I've been trying to point out in my posts on this thread.
It's really easy to condemn the people in the military---especially for those who probably never spent a microsecond in it themselves---rather than its civilian leaders....be they Dem OR Rep. Nobody asks us whether we like any/all given conflict in which we are ordered to serve.
So, as I've pointed out many times in my posts here, until you've walked (marched?) a mile or two in our shoes (boots?), it's high time all of you armchair generals cut us poor grunts some slack.
---ktn4eg E-6 (ret.): USAF,1964-69; TN ANG, 1988-2005
saturneptune
New Member
Instead of cutting us some slack, maybe they should just stay silent.
Just a note but worthy of note.
Our moto was and still is, ¨Above The Best.¨ My company and A Company worked for Custer's Cavalry, Green Berets, Rangers and anyone else we could be of service to. Commonly heard was, ¨If you get shot down, just pray that there's a Black Bandit or a Killer Spade near, they´re nuts and don´t have sense enough not to land and get you out of there.¨
We were, daily, above the best Grunts in the World and we were very, very, proud to be their servants. What J. D. and the other cry babies have missed is the strongest taught principal in the scriptures, Servanthood. Those young men (I want to call them kids) are living the life of a servant and, in respose, we should be! Either that or go get drunk Saturday Night and sleep it off Sunday. When a man or a woman is saved they become the Servants of God, making you required to serve those men and women that serve you!
Our moto was and still is, ¨Above The Best.¨ My company and A Company worked for Custer's Cavalry, Green Berets, Rangers and anyone else we could be of service to. Commonly heard was, ¨If you get shot down, just pray that there's a Black Bandit or a Killer Spade near, they´re nuts and don´t have sense enough not to land and get you out of there.¨
We were, daily, above the best Grunts in the World and we were very, very, proud to be their servants. What J. D. and the other cry babies have missed is the strongest taught principal in the scriptures, Servanthood. Those young men (I want to call them kids) are living the life of a servant and, in respose, we should be! Either that or go get drunk Saturday Night and sleep it off Sunday. When a man or a woman is saved they become the Servants of God, making you required to serve those men and women that serve you!
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