American Sacred Cow #1 - Military Pay

[saturneptune]

There is no doubt about the bravery of people who enlist!!!!!!!

But unless they are signing up because of the pay OR the adventure they are being suckered by Big Oil. Anyone who thinks Afghanistan is a serious threat to the US . . . .

I enjoy your posts, and the difference of opinion. That is vastly different than those who have a bitter agenda against those who joined. You and Poncho have very valid points. You all put the criticism where it belongs, at the idiot politicians.

 

[freeatlast]

The truth is we have not been in a just war since WW2. Even the Korean war is questionable as being just. One proof is we have lost every war since WW2. Our men and women fight with no real purpose and it is destroying them physically and mentally and the higher pay and bigger toys are not the answer.

 

[LadyEagle]

SCENE: ANCIENT ISRAEL- Judah

2 Chronicles 25:5-6:
Moreover Amaziah gathered Judah together, and made them captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, according to the houses of their fathers, throughout all Judah and Benjamin: and he numbered them from twenty years old and above, and found them three hundred thousand choice men, able to go forth to war, that could handle spear and shield.
6 He hired also an hundred thousand mighty men of valour out of Israel for an hundred talents of silver.

Special Ops? One talent of silver = $10,760.00

So, see if I did the math right: 100 talents x $10,760. = $1,076,000.00 Budget

Comes out to $10,760.00 per Mighty Man. Ancient Israel. Soldiers were paid and at a good wage.

Just saying.....

 

[Arbo]

The truth is we have not been in a just war since WW2. Even the Korean war is questionable as being just. One proof is we have lost every war since WW2.

Ask the Kuwaitis if Desert Storm was just.

Ask the Iraqis who won that one.

 

[saturneptune]

The truth is we have not been in a just war since WW2. Even the Korean war is questionable as being just. One proof is we have lost every war since WW2. Our men and women fight with no real purpose and it is destroying them physically and mentally and the higher pay and bigger toys are not the answer.

Maybe you could have termed it there has not been a declared war since WW2. "Just war" is a term that means it was worth the fight. There are just wars the Untied States has no business in, and there were wars that never needed fighting that we were involved in. I would say the Gulf War in 1991 was a just war that we did have business in. Places maybe we should have stayed out of were Somalia, Croatia, Vietnam (for that length of time), and the second Iraq war. Korea is in a catagory all by itself, and much more complex.

 

[LadyEagle]

Agreed. And thank you, SN, for your kind comment towards me back a few pages.

Viet Nam: What was gained? The political line was that it was to defeat the spread of Communism. Yet at the same time, doors were opening up to trade with China, who was financing North Viet Nam. Now, not only do we have Permanent Normal Trade agreements with China (which is an imbalanced trade agreement with the US), but we also trade with Viet Nam!! So, our brave men and women served and many thousands lost their lives in vain, IMO. For what?

Now, here's my rant:

The truth is we have not been in a just war since WW2. Even the Korean war is questionable as being just. One proof is we have lost every war since WW2. Our men and women fight with no real purpose and it is destroying them physically and mentally and the higher pay and bigger toys are not the answer.

Disagree, FAL. Our men and women fight "political wars", in the sense they individually are fighting to win the war, but the politicians direct the mission and the mission is not to win the war, but to "win hearts and minds" and to nation build. That is the fault of the politicians and CIC. Political pressure has also changed the "Rules of Engagement." Our political leaders are more concerned with political correctness than following the Constitution. Our political leaders are more concerned with winning hearts and minds and nation building rather than winning the war and then rebuilding nations, like we did in WW2. None of this is the fault of the military but of our leaders, both Republican and Democrat.

After 09/11, I realized that we have the technology and resources that we could have decimated both Afghanistan and Iraq from the air, without ever putting "boots on the ground" had we had the political will to do so. But the political will was not there nor is it there all these many years past.

WW2, there were many at the time who felt WW2 was not a just war but one of the reasons we got involved in WW2 was because of Pearl Harbor. Congress followed the Constitution and DECLARED WAR. We have "lost" the wars since WW2 because we did not follow the Constitution which states that Congress "DECLARES" war. Our politicians skirt around the Constitution and get us engaged because of treaties and trade agreements, and political and financial reasons. When we do not follow the Charter of this Nation, the US Constitution, or circumvent it in order to have a war but not a Constitutionally declared war, we damage our standing in the world as world leader and divide our nation. Our founders were very wise in this regard.

I support the troops. I do not and have not supported their "mission" because the "mission" is muddied. Who ever throughout history went to war and tried to rebuild that nation simultaneously? Are there any examples? I can think of none.

The way I read history, you conquer using all of your military might, which subdues the enemy and the populace, then you rebuild and invest and perhaps gain an ally or friend. That's the way it was done with Japan. We were politically incorrect in WW2 but we won.

 

[ktn4eg]

Say what you might about him, but I believe the late SAC Commander Gen. Curtis LeMay had it right when he said that if the US really needs to go to war w/an aggressor nation, then we need to nuke them w/all we got, then cover their ground w/asphalt, and then get the.......:laugh:...out of there!!

Yeah.....I know that this is going to be finely parsed 16 thousand million ways & I'll be taken to the wood shed "fer a heap good thrashin,'" but that's OK w/me.....Won't be the 1st time & I'm sure it won't be the last one either by some of the fine people out there in BB land. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Don]

Agreed. And thank you, SN, for your kind comment towards me back a few pages.

Viet Nam: What was gained? The political line was that it was to defeat the spread of Communism. Yet at the same time, doors were opening up to trade with China, who was financing North Viet Nam. Now, not only do we have Permanent Normal Trade agreements with China (which is an imbalanced trade agreement with the US), but we also trade with Viet Nam!! So, our brave men and women served and many thousands lost their lives in vain, IMO. For what?

Now, here's my rant:

Originally Posted by freeatlast
The truth is we have not been in a just war since WW2. Even the Korean war is questionable as being just. One proof is we have lost every war since WW2. Our men and women fight with no real purpose and it is destroying them physically and mentally and the higher pay and bigger toys are not the answer.

Disagree, FAL. Our men and women fight "political wars", in the sense they individually are fighting to win the war, but the politicians direct the mission and the mission is not to win the war, but to "win hearts and minds" and to nation build. That is the fault of the politicians and CIC. Political pressure has also changed the "Rules of Engagement." Our political leaders are more concerned with political correctness than following the Constitution. Our political leaders are more concerned with winning hearts and minds and nation building rather than winning the war and then rebuilding nations, like we did in WW2. None of this is the fault of the military but of our leaders, both Republican and Democrat.

After 09/11, I realized that we have the technology and resources that we could have decimated both Afghanistan and Iraq from the air, without ever putting "boots on the ground" had we had the political will to do so. But the political will was not there nor is it there all these many years past.

WW2, there were many at the time who felt WW2 was not a just war but one of the reasons we got involved in WW2 was because of Pearl Harbor. Congress followed the Constitution and DECLARED WAR. We have "lost" the wars since WW2 because we did not follow the Constitution which states that Congress "DECLARES" war. Our politicians skirt around the Constitution and get us engaged because of treaties and trade agreements, and political and financial reasons. When we do not follow the Charter of this Nation, the US Constitution, or circumvent it in order to have a war but not a Constitutionally declared war, we damage our standing in the world as world leader and divide our nation. Our founders were very wise in this regard.

I support the troops. I do not and have not supported their "mission" because the "mission" is muddied. Who ever throughout history went to war and tried to rebuild that nation simultaneously? Are there any examples? I can think of none.

The way I read history, you conquer using all of your military might, which subdues the enemy and the populace, then you rebuild and invest and perhaps gain an ally or friend. That's the way it was done with Japan. We were politically incorrect in WW2 but we won.

Well put! :thumbsup:

My only analogy to help support this, and to show the error of FAL's logic, is this: I saw a man beating a woman. I stepped in to stop him, and he and I started exchanging blows. He was better skilled than I, or bigger, or perhaps I just wasn't up to my best that day; and I ended up being beaten.

According to FAL's logic, because I lost, obviously it wasn't a just cause.

 

[Arbo]

Agreed. And thank you, SN, for your kind comment towards me back a few pages.

Viet Nam: What was gained? The political line was that it was to defeat the spread of Communism. Yet at the same time, doors were opening up to trade with China, who was financing North Viet Nam. Now, not only do we have Permanent Normal Trade agreements with China (which is an imbalanced trade agreement with the US), but we also trade with Viet Nam!! So, our brave men and women served and many thousands lost their lives in vain, IMO. For what?

Now, here's my rant:


Disagree, FAL. Our men and women fight "political wars", in the sense they individually are fighting to win the war, but the politicians direct the mission and the mission is not to win the war, but to "win hearts and minds" and to nation build. That is the fault of the politicians and CIC. Political pressure has also changed the "Rules of Engagement." Our political leaders are more concerned with political correctness than following the Constitution. Our political leaders are more concerned with winning hearts and minds and nation building rather than winning the war and then rebuilding nations, like we did in WW2. None of this is the fault of the military but of our leaders, both Republican and Democrat.

After 09/11, I realized that we have the technology and resources that we could have decimated both Afghanistan and Iraq from the air, without ever putting "boots on the ground" had we had the political will to do so. But the political will was not there nor is it there all these many years past.

WW2, there were many at the time who felt WW2 was not a just war but one of the reasons we got involved in WW2 was because of Pearl Harbor. Congress followed the Constitution and DECLARED WAR. We have "lost" the wars since WW2 because we did not follow the Constitution which states that Congress "DECLARES" war. Our politicians skirt around the Constitution and get us engaged because of treaties and trade agreements, and political and financial reasons. When we do not follow the Charter of this Nation, the US Constitution, or circumvent it in order to have a war but not a Constitutionally declared war, we damage our standing in the world as world leader and divide our nation. Our founders were very wise in this regard.

I support the troops. I do not and have not supported their "mission" because the "mission" is muddied. Who ever throughout history went to war and tried to rebuild that nation simultaneously? Are there any examples? I can think of none.

The way I read history, you conquer using all of your military might, which subdues the enemy and the populace, then you rebuild and invest and perhaps gain an ally or friend. That's the way it was done with Japan. We were politically incorrect in WW2 but we won.

Amen LadyEagle!:thumbsup:

 

[Arbo]

<quoted PA deleted - LE>
This is the rebuttal of a ten year old.

Rather than accuse, why not state that Don got it wrong (perhaps he misunderstood your post) and explain why? It would be more civil.

 

[Don]

Did I miss something?

 

[Arbo]

Did I miss something?

FAL called you a liar again.

 

[Don]

Because of my interpretation of his message? Where he said one proof of our unjust wars was that we had lost all the ones since WWII? While I'll be the first to admit that no analogy is perfect, I thought that analogy exemplified his statement.

The only other analogy I could think of was Job's friends, who kept insisting he must have been guilty of some sin or none of the terrible things would have happened.

I'm happy to discuss why he thinks I'm wrong in my analysis.

 

[kyredneck]

Funny you should mention that. My company is the 95th Sapper Company "Wolfpack". There is somewhat of a pack mentality. And by somewhat, I mean that it is very apparent in some areas, but not so much others. Our unofficial motto is from Rudyard Kipling - "The strength of the wolf is the pack, and the strength of the pack is the wolf."

It is apparent in areas such as sticking up for each other. If you mess with one of us, you mess with all 200+ of us. That's in fights, "trash talking" in sports, physical challenges, etc. In that way, there is very much a pack mentality. Another way it is evident is when one of us is hurt, especially if they have to be sent home. The company rallies around that person and supports them and their family.

On the other hand, personal matters remain personal matters. As an NCO, I do my duty and am there if my soldier needs help. But we don't air our dirty laundry. Handle it at the lowest level possible, and only escalate things if they have to be.

Sappers! 12B all the way!

The question was intended to be rhetorical.

J.D is a good man. He's one of a couple of handfuls of members on the BB of whom I've much respect for. From the flak he's caught here one would think that he had denied the deity of Christ, perhaps in the eyes of some it's even worse than that.

 

[Salty]

From J.D. liner:
"For those of you that seem to need to know, I am a retired Air Force Senior Master Sergeant, with 31 years of service and chest full of medals." Is that good enough for you?
***************************************************
Then why are you so critical of the military. Oh, thats right you were in the Air Force.

I don't know about Air Force officers, but military officers do work - and they work hard.

And as far as a "sacred cow" I suppose in order to help the federal budget, you would have no problem to a 50% pay cut in your retirement pay and also turn in your Gray ID card.

Sarge

PS - Just wondering if you would be willing to serve in the Guard without any pay?

 

[kyredneck]

From J.D. liner:
"For those of you that seem to need to know, I am a retired Air Force Senior Master Sergeant, with 31 years of service and chest full of medals." Is that good enough for you?
***************************************************
Then why are you so critical of the military. Oh, thats right you were in the Air Force.

I don't know about Air Force officers, but military officers do work - and they work hard.

And as far as a "sacred cow" I suppose in order to help the federal budget, you would have no problem to a 50% pay cut in your retirement pay and also turn in your Gray ID card.

Sarge

PS - Just wondering if you would be willing to serve in the Guard without any pay?

Where did you obtain the 'J.D. liner'?

 

[Salty]

Where did you obtain the 'J.D. liner'?

Check post # 1 of this thread

 

[kyredneck]

Check post # 1 of this thread

OK, did that, didn't find the statement.

Where did you obtain it?

[edit to add] I expect this thread will be closed before I'll ever get a straight up answer from you.

 

[mandym]

OK, did that, didn't find the statement.

Where did you obtain it?

It used to be found here http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1870116&postcount=46

But in a fit of childishness the author removed it.

[edit to add] I expect this thread will be closed before I'll ever get a straight up answer from you.

<PA deleted - LE>

 

[HankD]

To all my GI brothers : I salute you.

Everyone else: Dont be misled, there is still a "cold war" going on this very minute, always has been and it could explode into a "hot war" in a matter of minutes and some day it will.

Though I was not in a combat situation my duties involved Information and Intelligence processing on the now defunct Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS) on the North American continent through to Thule Greenland.

If it were not for the dedication and expertise of our military and the fear of the same by our enemies (namely the then USSR), I know from firsthand experience that we would have been incinerated as a nation many times over.

HankD