Amillennialism

[skypair]

Pilgrimer,

Problem is that partial preterism still leaves Israel "unrequited." Three covenants of God have NOT been fulfilled -- 1) Abrahamic (Gen 13:14-17), 2) Davidic (2Sam 7:4-7, 12-13), and 3) Palestinian (Deut 30:1-10). All 3 will be fulfilled in the MK of Christ which is yet future.

skypair

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Skypair,

Natural Israel is Dispensationalism' heart. Dispensationalism believes both Israel and Church are separate of God's program.

Actually, the Bible teaches us, that Gentiles are now grafted into tree join with believeing Jews, so all are Israel as describe in Romans chapter 11. God only have one people. God is no respector for either Jew, Gentiles, man,woman, races, nations, religions, etc. - Romans 2:11. God interests that anyone who have faith IN Jesus Christ only.

Christ already make reconcile both Jews and Gentiles became unity into onw by calvary as described in Ephesians chapter 2.

Church doesn't replaced Israel. Israel is now expanding.

And also, we(Gentiles) are now part of Abaham's seed share the same covenant.

Old Testament prophecies all are fulfilled in Jesus Christ, that we are now under the new covenant/testament by through His blood on the cross.

We are Israel, we are God's people. Because, we are in Jesus Christ by through our faith. Jesus Christ is all about Salvation in Bible, not just for ethnic or physical nation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Pilgrimer]

Pilgrimer,

Problem is that partial preterism still leaves Israel "unrequited."

Actually skypair, it is premillennialsm that leaves the entire Jewish nation bereft of the salvation wrought by Christ at Calvary, as though the preaching of the Gospel has been of none effect for the Jew, when in fact, the Jews were the first to believe Jesus is the Messiah, the first to receive the promises of God and the first to be born again and enter into God's Kingdom, years before the first Gentile was ever converted. In the years after the ascension of Jesus the Gospel was preached in every city, town and village of Israel and multitudes of Jews were saved. There was a great harvest of souls from among the Jews, both those dwelling in the land of Israel as well as from among those scattered throughout every nation on earth, before the Old Covenant came to an end and the Jewish commonwealth and Mosaic economy was destroyed. This mass conversion of multitudes of Jews throughout the ancient world during the generation which was eyewitness to the coming and the work of Christ is the testimony of the New Testament itself . . . and yet the premillennial view willfully turns a blind eye to the salvation of God's people and focuses with single-minded attention solely on the unbelieving Jew as though they, and they alone, are "Israel" and the multitudes of Christian Jews somehow. . . don't count.

Three covenants of God have NOT been fulfilled -- 1) Abrahamic (Gen 13:14-17),

"And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered."

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place that he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky for multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having recieved the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whench they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly; wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city . . . ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . . ." Hebrews 11:8-16 and 12:22

Paul makes it very clear in this passage that the "country" which Abraham understood God to be speaking of was in fact a heavenly country, not an earthly one, else Abraham and Isaac and Jacob would have had nothing to hope for, they already lived in the ancient land of promise. But as Paul teaches, they lived there as strangers and pilgrims because they knew they had a home in heaven and they died in faith waiting for that promise to be fulfilled. And it was, with the work of Christ at Calvary every Jew of old who died in faith became the heirs not of an earthly kingdom, but of a heavenly country, the Kingdom of God, which is Heaven. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Moses, David and Daniel, Ruth, Miriam and Esther, all the faithful of old even now walk those golden streets and dwell in those heavenly mansions we see described in the closing pages of the Bible. They are the redeemed of the earth and they dwell even now with Christ in heaven.

You can find additional teaching by Paul about the heavenly Jerusalem, which Paul says is the New Covenant whereas the old, earthly Jerusalem is the Old Covenant, a teaching which Paul says is . . . (dare I say it) . . . an "allegory." Galatians 4:21-31

2) Davidic (2Sam 7:4-7, 12-13), and 3)

This promise to David was that his son, Solomon, would build God a permanent house in Jerusalem rather than the tabernacle that had been the dwelling place of God since the days when Israel sojourned in the wilderness. This promise to David was fulfilled when Solomon built the beautiful temple that was later destroyed by Babylon. And of course, this in itself prefigured Jesus, the Son of David, who would build God a house not made with hands, a house of which Jesus himself is the chief cornerstone, and which we believers, Jews and Gentiles, are living stones that altogether make up the temple, the dwellingplace of God in this world.

Palestinian (Deut 30:1-10).

The blessings of the Law contained in the Deuteronomical passage you referenced were conditioned upon Israel keeping covenant with God . . . Have you by chance read the curses of the Law also contained in this passage if Israel broke covenant with God and turned from him to worship false gods? And if you are at all familiar with the history of Israel after the giving of the Law at Sinai you will recall that time and again Israel did break covenant and turned to all manner of idolatry and wickedness. Only a small remnant of Jews remained faithful throughout the Old Testament history, and only a remnant of Jews proved faithful to God and were saved in the New Testament, the majority, then and even to this day, refuse to hear and obey the voice of God and will never be saved.

"Isaiah also cried concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved." Romans 9:27 Paul quoting Isaiah 10:22

So it isn't partial preterism that excludes Jews from God's work of salvation, it is premillennialism.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Amy.G]

Pilgrimer, Deafposttrib, dare I say it? You guys make sense.

Question: will there be a 7 year tribulation? Will the antichrist rule during this time? Or do you believe that this has already been fulfilled?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Nowhere in Bible saying there will be 'seven years' of Tribulaiton Period. Many use Dan. 9:24-27 to prove that there will be seven years because of verse 27 says 'a week' equals 7 years. Dan. 9:24-27 was already fulfilled at calvary 2000 years ago. And 'he' is focus on Jesus Christ, not Antichrist. Dan. 9:26-27 of 'he' focus on one person-Jesus. Christ already fulfilled it by made new covenant with many by through His blood. Christ said, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." - Matt. 26:28.

Also, I suggest you read Hebrews chapter 8, 9 and 10 talking about new covenant relates with Calvary. The old covenant was already fade away and the new covenant is made new by through his blood.

Dan.9:26 fulfilled that Christ was cut off by calvary and flood over the city by Roman Army in 70 A.D. After He made new covenant with many people -Dan. 9:27. 'Midst of the week'-vs. 27 speaks of Christ made new covenant DURING in the week of His ministry after his 3 1/2 years of ministry on earth.

By the way, I do believe there will be literal future great tribulation under Satan when after he loosed out of the way(2 Thess. 2:6-8; Rev. 20:3,8-9) to deceive the world and to war against Christians for a 'little season'-42 months or 3 1/2 years, NOT seven years. Yes, Satan, himself shall be revealed and to have power over the world for 42 months, as God allows Satan to do it for short time. Then, Christ shall come with power and glory to destroy Satan's works and cast him away into the lake of fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Marcia]

Actually skypair, it is premillennialsm that leaves the entire Jewish nation bereft of the salvation wrought by Christ at Calvary, as though the preaching of the Gospel has been of none effect for the Jew,

No premil I know says that no Jews were saved.

when in fact, the Jews were the first to believe Jesus is the Messiah, the first to receive the promises of God and the first to be born again and enter into God's Kingdom, years before the first Gentile was ever converted. In the years after the ascension of Jesus the Gospel was preached in every city, town and village of Israel and multitudes of Jews were saved. There was a great harvest of souls from among the Jews, both those dwelling in the land of Israel as well as from among those scattered throughout every nation on earth, before the Old Covenant came to an end and the Jewish commonwealth and Mosaic economy was destroyed. This mass conversion of multitudes of Jews throughout the ancient world during the generation which was eyewitness to the coming and the work of Christ is the testimony of the New Testament itself . . .

Even though Jews were saved, the OT predicts that the Jews as a nation will reject the Messiah:
and he will be a sanctuary;
but for both houses of Israel he will be
a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare. Is 8.14



Fulfilled in the NT:
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. John 3.11

Referred to by Paul:
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Rom. 9.30-33

19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." 20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." 21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people." Rom. 10.18

What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day." 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever." Rom. 11.7-10


Even Jesus referred to the Jews' rejection in a parable starting in Matt. 21:31:
38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40"Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
41"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

The Bible is clear - the Jews as a nation/people rejected the Messiah. One day, as a nation, they will believe on Him.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Pilgrimer, Deafposttrib, dare I say it? You guys make sense.

Actually, it is the Gospel that makes sense of promises and prophesies that otherwise are beyond understanding.

Question: will there be a 7 year tribulation? Will the antichrist rule during this time? Or do you believe that this has already been fulfilled?

The 7 year tribulation was the 7 year war in which the land of Israel, the city of Jerusalem and the Temple of God were destroyed in exactly the manner the Law and the Prophets had foretold, down to the least jot and tittle.

Read the curse of the Law in Deuteronomy 28:15-68 and you will see the wellspring of all the “tribulation” prophesies of the entire Old Testament, as well as of the New. Read also the passage called the “Song of Moses” in Deuteronomy 31:28-32:43 which is Moses’ prophecy about how the nation of Israel would break covenant with God and how in the last days of the Old Covenant God would judge the nation and destroy them. These decrees of the Law are the wellspring of all the prophecies about the “days of vengeance” elaborated upon by the prophets, and which Luke said would be fulfilled in the generation of Jesus, in the days when the Roman armies would encompass the city of Jerusalem and the city would be destroyed and the people of Israel would be led away captive into all nations. That came to pass in the 7 year Roman/Jewish war which began in 66 A.D. and ended with the fall of Masada in 73 A.D. It was “in the midst” of this “week” of 7 years, in 70 A.D., that the sacrifice and oblation ceased forever and the city and the sanctuary were destroyed.

Jesus said he had come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets and that not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all of it was fulfilled. The coming, birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorification of Jesus was part of the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, but there was more to be fulfilled. All those prophecies about the judgment of the Law also had to be fulfilled, and that’s what the “time of Jacob’s trouble” was all about. Once all the Law and the Prophets came to pass, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and passed away.

About the anti-christ, there are only four verses in all of scripture which actually teach about anti-christ and what they teach is in complete contradiction to what the popular view teaches:

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that anti-christ shall come, even now are there many anti-christs; whereby we know it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us . . .” 1 John 2:18-19a

Notice that in the above John clearly teaches that “anti-christ” is not some one particular end-time potentate, but that there are many anti-christs and that they were already in the world even in his day.

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son.” John 2:22

According to the Biblical definition of anti-christ, it is anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Throughout the past 2000 years that would include multitudes of people, not just one end-time person.

“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of anti-christ whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

Again, John clearly teaches that an anti-christ is any one that refuses to confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. And he also repeats that the spirit of anti-christ was already at work in the world in his own day.

And finally:

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-christ.” 1 John 5:7

Again, John puts forth a very simple and clear doctrine on anti-christ that includes many people. But what the premillennial view teaches completely contradicts what John teaches and makes anti-christ one particular person, supposedly the devil incarnate (although the idea that Satan is capable of incarnating himself is a rather gross error) and that this anti-christ is yet to come, something that completely contradicts what John teaches. I think John probably has it right and the premillennial view has it wrong.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Amy.G]

Thank you Pilgrimer. Who is the man of sin? This verse implies that a singular person will appear and show himself to be as God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Amy.G]

One day, as a nation, they will believe on Him.

Marcia, where does scripture say that Israel will someday believe in Christ?

 

[Pilgrimer]

No premil I know says that no Jews were saved.

Every premil I know says the Jews who are saved do not count, that the whole nation has to be saved for the promise of salvation of Israel to be fulfilled.

Even though Jews were saved, the OT predicts that the Jews as a nation will reject the Messiah:
and he will be a sanctuary;
but for both houses of Israel he will be
a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare. Is 8.14

You failed to complete that quote . . .

"And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken." Isaiah 8:15

Clearly this prophecy did not say the nation as a whole will reject Jesus, but that many among them will, the majority in fact, while only a remnant would be saved. And history has proven those prohecies to be true.

Fulfilled in the NT:
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. John 3.11

Again, you failed to finish the quote:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God." John 1:12

I trust you would agree that multitudes of Jews are counted among those who received Jesus and were given power to become the sons of God?

Referred to by Paul:
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Rom. 9.30-33

Paul is speaking of Jews who pursued righteousness by the law rather than by faith. Those are the Jews who have stumbled and have fallen, not all Jews have.

19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." 20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." 21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people." Rom. 10.18

Again, you stop short of Paul's teaching. He goes on to say:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am a Jew, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace . . ." Romans 11:1-5

So Paul is clearly teaching that while the majority of the Jewish nation has rejected Jesus, there was even in his day and is even in our own day a remnant of the Jewish nation who have accepted Jesus and they are the "Israel of God" Paul teaches about in this Romans passage.

What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day." 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever." Rom. 11.7-10

Hm, "what Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did." The "elect" would be the Christian Jews. The others, meaning the unbelieving Jews, were hardened and did not obtain what they sought. Why? Because, unlike their Christian brothers, they did not seek it by faith by rather by the works of the Law.

Even Jesus referred to the Jews' rejection in a parable starting in Matt. 21:31:
38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40"Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
41"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

The vineyard was Israel, the tenants were those who were given the charge over the nation, the religious leaders. It was they who rejected Jesus and crucified him, not the people of Israel. That's why the kingdom was taken from these apostate religious leaders and given to the Jewish Christians, the Apostles of Christ, who were given charge of the church and commissioned to take the Gospel to all the world. This is borne out by the rest of that passage:

"And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them." Matthew 21:45

Jesus was not speaking of the Kingdom being taken from the Jewish people, but from the Jewish religous leaders, the chief priests and Pharisees. Think about it. How would you have ever heard the Gospel had it not been for the witness of these Jews who knew Jesus and have left us their testimony in the form of these Gospels and Epistles? And are we not governed by the doctrines taught us by these Jewish men? These were the faithful stewards to whom God entrusted the gospel of the kingdom, after he took the kingdom from the chief priests and Pharisees who proved to be unjust stewards who killed the son of God.

The Bible is clear - the Jews as a nation/people rejected the Messiah. One day, as a nation, they will believe on Him.

I don't agree that the Bible is clear about that at all. It seems to me that what is clear is that the majority of the Jewish nation has rejected Jesus and only a remnant have proven faithful to God. So it was during the Old Testament days, so it was foretold by Jesus and the Prophets, and so it has come to pass in these New Testament days. The believing Jews are the Israel of God and have received all the promises of God given to the seed of Abraham. The unbelieving Jews have been disinherited and cast out.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, where does scripture say that Israel will someday believe in Christ?

Thanks for asking! I should have put that in.

Rom. 11.25-27
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

 

[Marcia]

Every premil I know says the Jews who are saved do not count, that the whole nation has to be saved for the promise of salvation of Israel to be fulfilled.

That's not evidence - just premils you know. I am in a premil church, premil seminary, and serve with a premil Mission Board and I've never heard this before. But it is true that Israel as a people have not accepted Jesus as the Messiah. He came first for the Jews, but they rejected him.

Again, you failed to finish the quote:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God." John 1:12

I trust you would agree that multitudes of Jews are counted among those who received Jesus and were given power to become the sons of God?

The "as many as" does not refer to "his own" who rejected him. It states that "his own rejected Him." His own people rejected Him but those who received Him were given power to become sons of God.

It seems to me that what is clear is that the majority of the Jewish nation has rejected Jesus and only a remnant have proven faithful to God.

I'm skipping the other statements because this is the crux of the matter, imo. The fact that the majority rejected Jesus is the same as saying that Israel as a nation/people rejected Jesus. No one has disputed that some Jews believed Jesus - this is obvious.

If this were not so, we would not have the contrast with Paul's statement that "all Israel" will be saved. Does this mean every Jew? No. It means the majority, or that Jews as a people will turn to Christ, but not every single individual. In the same way, one can say that the nation (but not every individual) rejected Jesus.

I mean, look at Israel today. Is it Christian? No, even though some are believers there, it is essentially Jewish or secular in beliefs.

 

[Ed Edwards]

resurrection1 = Jesus raising the saints from the dead & giving them new bodies
rapture1 = Jesus giving the living saints & giving them new bodies

1Th 4:16-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descende from heauen with a shoute, and with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of

God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall

we euer be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort your selues one another with these wordes.

Open note to amills: Where is my comfort that you are supposed to get me which is COMMANDed that you give to me in 1 Thess 4:18?

What then is the Bible talking about when it says these things (items of interest bolded & in all caps)?

1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Then shall we which liue and remaine,
be CAUGHT VP with them also in the clouds,
to meete the Lord in the ayre:
and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, and
by OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from
your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit,
nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs,
as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there
come a DEPARTING FIRST, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne
of perdition,

Titus 2:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Looking for that BLESSED HOPE,
and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God,
and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

Mat 24:31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And he shall send his Angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT
from the foure windes, and from the one ende of the heauens vnto the other.

1Co 16:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
If any man loue not the Lord Iesus Christ,
let him be had in execration MARAN-ATHA.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (TNIV = Today's New
International Version):
If anyone does not love the Lord,
let that person be cursed! COME LORD!

Joh 14:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let not your heart be troubled: ye beleeue in God,
beleeue also in me.
2 In my Fathers house are many dwelling places:
if it were not so, I would haue tolde you:
I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go to prepare a place
for you, I wil come againe,
and RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE,
that where I am, there may ye be also.

Ed redefines 'rapture2' with some Scripture
terms:

rapture2 n. -
1. the pretribulation event where Jesus
performs a resurrection1 followed
closely by a rapture1
2a CAUGHT VP;
2b OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
-- and DEPARTING of the grave & Earth;
2c BLESSED HOPE;
2d GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT;
2e MARAN-ATHA;
2f COME LORD!;
2g RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE;
2h and HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU

Caveat: I reserve the right to add to this definition
as I find other supporting scriptures. These
were just the ones on the top of my mind
tonight.

Sorry, my HOPE is NOT even closely threatened
by sombody grabbing my word 'rapture'.

And I have fulfilled the COMMAND OF JESUS:

1 Peter 3:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready alwayes to giue an answere
to euery man that asketh you a reason of the
HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU,
with meekenesse and reuerence,

Jesus is going to come get me before the Tribulation Period and take me to heaven to be with Him.

(I apologize for my editor conflicting with the BB editor. I use short lines cause you can see that I get extra lines thrown in by the conflict /my original has no extra lines, the BB edit board has no extra line/. I can have it either wrong way I like, I don't like either).

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

I mean, look at Israel today. Is it Christian? No, even though some are believers there, it is essentially Jewish or secular in beliefs.

Sister M: I believe that that secular Jewish nation will be saved AFTER THE RAPTURE of the church.

I know that makes me a dispensational, pre-trib rapture2, pre-mill Second Coming of Jesus type person, so be it.

I note on this topic that the kindly brothers & sisters that are a-mills can demolish the 'dispensationl' straw men that they build. Unfortunately none of them yet even come close to destroying my dispy doctrine:

--------------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 family of editions (bolding by Ed):

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is here. I do know the Greek word being translated here as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get 'economy'.

I do know (IN SUMMARY OF THE BIBLE off the top of my head) that this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses what is to be is discussed in either present tense (is done) or past tense (done already done).
(I say this because some don't understand the Bible does teach that the mostly gentile Church and National Jews are ONE IN MESSIAH JESUS. This is the way it is supposed to be and the way it will be when all the National Jews are get saved at the Middle of the Tribulation Period. But right now the Church & the National Jews are two bodies, in the eternal state they will be one body - the body of Messiah Jesus, the Bride of Messiah Jesus, & other metaphors)

So a study of Greek tenses is generally frustrating. Us human type people can only do one day at a time. God can do everyday at a time - I think God may have invented all the days at the same time?
--------------------------------------

Sorry, I use the nuclear bomb of THE BIBLE! read my trailer some day:

-

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

1 Thess. 4:13-18 didn't given the timing of His coming.It didn't saying that Christ will come before Tribulation. This passage is focus about what will be happen to the love ones who already died. Paul told them, do not sorrow over their love ones, he told them that their love ones will be risen again at Christ's coming, and then alive and remain will be caught up, and they will reunion with their love ones again , and be with the Lord forever and forver. That is encourage and good news.

Also, 'falling away' of 2 Thess. 2:3 is not support the idea meaning of rapture. Because, you have to look at sentence of verse 3 says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: [B]for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME[/B], ....."What 'that day shall not come' speaking of? It speaks of His coming and our gathering together which is context with verse 1.

More importantly is, we have to read context start with verse 1 and verse 2 before we get arrive verse 3. So, we can understand verse 3 better.

Verse 1 - Paul beseech them to understanding of His coming and our gathering together. Why? Because Paul heard rumors, that Christians were told that, Christ already arrived, or, they have missed day of Christ. - Verse 2. Paul told them, do not believe anyone mentioned of Day of Christ from people, letters, Paul and his disciples, teachers, which saying that Day of Christ is already arrived- "Day of Christ is at hand."- 2 Thess. 2:2b. So, Paul continued verse 3- He told thme, do not let anyone deceive them of any means(rumours, teachings) on timing of Day of Christ. Paul said Day of Christ will NOT come yet till we must first see apostasy('falling away') and the man of sin revealed.

Clearly, there are three things must first come before Day of Christ- 1. apostasy 2. the man of sin revealed 3. sitteth in the temple of God(vs. 4).

Apostasy is not focus on sinners' condition or world conditions. Apostasy is within Christians' spiritual conditions, as their spiritual become backslidding, quit serve the Lord, compromising with world. Then, the man of sin be revealed. I believe it means when Satan shall be loosed out of the midst(2 Thess. 2:6-8), then he shall reveal to the world as visible person to deceive the world. Then, Satan shall sitteth in the temple of God. "Sitteth in the temple of God" doesn't mean that the Antichrist will sit on the throne in the building of Temple -literally. It means Satan will control or war against the Church. We are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 3:16; and 1 Cor. 6:19. Satan will persecute against us - Rev. 13:7. "Sitteth" of 2 Thess. 2:4 means to rule over. Rev. 17:9 is a perfect example of 'sitteth'. Rev. 17:9 tells us, the seven heads which are seven mountians, on which the woman sitteth. Does that mean we will see literal lady sits on literal seven mountians? No. this is scene as symbol means that, Babylon will rule over the world.

Same with 2 Thess. 2:3-4 telling us, Day of Christ will NOT come till we will see apostasy within Church, then the man of sin be revealed, and Satan will rule over Church with power and war against them.

Here come again, you keep on saying of Matt 24:31. You are partially correct that verse is talking about rapture, but, this verse doesn't prove that, it is pretribulation rapture. Because verse 31 is context with Matt. 24:29-30 telling us, that Christ will come right AFTER tribulation.

Titus 2:13 doesn't saying it is pretribulational. It speaking of our HOPE is eternal life - Titus 1:2; and Titus 3:7. That means, our soul and body all shall be changed into immortality, and looking for our eternal life that will be at Christ's coming.

1 Cor. 16:22 have do nothing with Second Advent. This verse talks about IF any person do not love the Lord, let him be accused-amen. Amen means agreed.

John 14:1-3 is not discuss on the timing of Christ's coming. This passage talking about Christ's promise to us, where Christ dwells, because Christ told disciples, that, He have return back to Father's house(speaking of His death at Calvary), and Christ told them, do not be sorrow over Him for departing from them back to heaven. Christ promises them, that he is preparing rooms in Father's house FOR them, if they doubt, He told them so, He will come again to receive them WHERE He is. John 14:1-3 is speaking of New Jerusalem, where Christ dwells. I LOVE John 14:1-3 is beautiful promise passage for us! I am looking for His coming, and also, I am looking for New Jerusalem, that will be at His coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[skypair]

DPT, pilgrimer,

Your view was "invented" by men. The Gentiles wanted to blame the Jews for killing Jesus and wipe the knowledge and prophecies of them off the face of the earth. The only "new" thing is now the Muslims want to do the same to both of us!

How they went about to accomplish their task was the allegorize whole sections of scripture taking away any literal meaning and centering the allegory around Christ. But Christ didn't give Abraham or his seed "all the land which you see." Christ didn't build a literal temple with His literal throne in it on that literal land divided among the literal TRIBES of Israel -- as seen in Ezek 40-48. And the cursings AND blessings were for them -- not for us.

And then it is also true that Abraham looked for a country come down from heaven. This is the land and temple that FOLLOW the MK. We know them as the New Earth and New Jerusalem of God's Kingdom, Rev 21.

I know this won't impress you and neither will my assertion that you don't understand the parables that are connected to these prophecies (such as in Rom 11). But as I said on another thread, I'm not convinced that Christians who don't understand the parables, the mysteries, and eschatology are really "in touch" with the Spirit. The teachings of some man --- probably. The plans of God --- nah.

skypair

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Skypair,

I don't follow invented by man such as St. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc.

I have been studying Bible for many years. And I have been reading and study Revelation for 20 years. I still learning them till I die.

Partially true that Jews did killed Jesus. BUT, that is not the reason why Jews killed Jesus. God commanded Jesus to die. Christ says, this is not my will, but it is Father's Will that He must do Father's Will. The purpose is SALVATION. Christ died not just for Jews only, also whole world - 1 John 2:2.

Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 saying nothing of 'a thousand years' or 'the thousand years'. No way that you can prove Ezekiel 40-48 is speaking of millennial.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2
Part0: the definitions:

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)

The first resurrection conists of these two events:

rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(many pre-mill, post-tribs deny a 'rapture2' exists
but think a 'rapture1 exists).
(this 'rapture2' I frequently call 'a rapture/resurrection
in my old writings)

resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(this I call generally this in my old writings:
the 'Second Coming of Jesus
in power & Glory, or just 'Second Advent', etc.)

rapture1 - an event held by Jesus where the living saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.

resurrection1 - an event held by Jesus where dead saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


1. the AND in Matthew 24:3

Mat 24:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues,
the Disciples came vnto him priuately,
saying, Tell vs, when shall these things be?
And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
AND (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

Other Bible Versions put 'age' instead of
'world' the Greek term is not 'cosmos'
usually translated 'world' but the Greek term is
'aeon' from which we get the English Word 'eon'
(a long period of time) and translated usually 'age'.

This AND clearly separates:
A. the Coming of Jesus in power and Glory
B. the Coming of Jesus to get the Saints at the end of the current AGE



Well, that is my pre-trib pre-mill viewpoint: the 'and' there denotes two seperate sets of events. Constrast this with the a-mill viewpoints which insisted that the 'and' denotes two different set descriptors of the same set of events.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)

2. Matthew 24:30-31

------------------------------
Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
pre-Millennial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/A110.pdf


This location fusses about the nKJV (new King James Version):

http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/A110.pdf

One thing it gripes about is that the nKJV misses a lot of 'AND's that appear in the in Greek (usually 'kai'). Strangely enough, it is an anti-nKJV arguement totally misunderstood by the KJVOs


---------------------------------------------
Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a rhetorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticeable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues
NOT that the end is near..

That is Ed's (and probably only Ed's) pre-trib, pre-mill viewpoint - the polysendton AND.
An a-mill must believe that the AND starting Matthew 24:31 connects Matthew 24:31 to the events that happen after the Tribulation, the events denoted in Matthew 24:29 & 30. But in my view, Matthew 24:4-14 is signs of the Church Age, which signs have happened or are happening. Because some of these events happend, it confuses the a-mills who think all the prophecies of the Bible happened in AD 0070. This confusion leads to many incorrect ideas down the a-mill path.