An 18 month old baby

[webdog]

Paul said we were by nature the children of wrath even as others. Not by action, by nature. You can deny the clear language of David all you want, but you cannot get around that statement right there. Men are sinners by nature. They are dead in sin, alienated from God, under condemnation, and deserving of hell. Praise God for sending Jesus Christ to pull men out of this condition.

Actually you can. Paul could have been referencing the Jews not having any special dispensation of salvation because they were Jews only, that they like the Gentiles were "by nature" children of wrath. Another possibility is the fact God can have nothing to do with our natures which became affected by the fall hence the curse of death being God's wrath against humanity.

A sinner is defined as one who sins. You are not defined as a murderer until you commit murder (either physically or in the heart). You are not a thief unless you steal. You are not a molester unless you molest someone. Being deemed a sinner just because you were conceived is far fetched and false. You have redefined the very word.

 

[webdog]

Let's see what John 3:18 actually says.

"He that believeth is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Notice that Jesus did not say that he that believeth not is thereby condemned, or becomes condemned. He said that the person who believes not is condemned already. That person was already condemned, and is still under condemnation.

Man is naturally in a state of condemnation, but there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. This is because Jesus condemned their sin in His flesh at Calvary.

Yes, my point exactly. They are condemned for not believing in Christ which opposes what you stated. They are not condemned for sinning as you also stated.

 

[webdog]

2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is why the Father forsook Him. Not simply because He was dying as an example or simply in place of us sinners. He literally became sin. Our Sin. Please listen to me. Just like we are made as perfect as Jesus, He was made as sinful as us by taking our sins. We are not simply called righteous, we are righteous just like God. Not because of ourselves but we are made such. The same was with the Lord. He was made or became sin for us. Most of us have seen the movie made by Mel Gibson on the death of the Lord. No doubt when we saw His beatings we wept. However in all the physical sufferings He went through that was nothing compared what He suffered when He became sin because of us. Just think about it. Here is the living Son of God who never felt sin. He never sinned! He never even had a bad thought. Then suddenly not just one sin was placed on Him but all the sins that has ever been or will be committed in all of history. Every gross sin that man has ever done. Let your mind run wild and see what that must have been like. Here is the suffering He went through. The nails were nothing compared to this. So much so that the Father forsook Him. Now He is really suffering! No one is trying to blaspheme the Lord. However the truth is He died as a sinner. Not His but ours! He took all our places. I realize this is difficult to hear, but that is because our churches today teach a watered down truth.
No place does the scripture say that He simply died a sinners death. You are adding to scripture.
I do agree with the new church suggestion. I wish there was one that taught the bible in my area.

You have done that text mis-justice. You have taken a figurative hyperbolic statement and applied your own definition of what it means. It does not say He became a sinner. If He did, He would also need a Savior. It says He "became" sin, i.e. all of the sin of the entire world was placed on Him...it was transferred to Him as the OT atonement sacrifice was. Are you also going to say the animal sacrifice in the OT became a "sinner" as well?

 

[freeatlast]

You have done that text mis-justice. You have taken a figurative hyperbolic statement and applied your own definition of what it means. It does not say He became a sinner. If He did, He would also need a Savior. It says He "became" sin, i.e. all of the sin of the entire world was placed on Him...it was transferred to Him as the OT atonement sacrifice was. Are you also going to say the animal sacrifice in the OT became a "sinner" as well?

You keep trying to justify your rejecting of scripture. The passage is not figurative or hyperbolic. It is literal. It is not an act that He became sin. It is not simply a statement without actually being real. It is literal. Just as literal as His suffering. He was not just acting like He was suffering. His suffering was not figurative or hyperbolic. He did not suffer simply to pacify Gods wrath. He suffered because He became sin and in doing so He satisfied God's wrath. As to the animal in the OT the answer is no. That was all symbolism. Neither could the animal pay for sin. That too was symbolism. But what the Lord did was actual, not symbolism. He became sin. 2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Notice it does not say that He acted like He was sin. Or that is was clamed that He was made sin. No He was made sin. When Jesus died He did not die because of His righteousness. He sacrificed Himself for us. His righteous life made it possible for Him to pay for what we could not afford to pay. The wages of sin is death. He had to literally become sin to pay the price for sin which is death.
Let me ask you something. This passage;
2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Are you suggesting that we (the saved) are not literally righteous, as righteous as God? Are you saying we are only being called righteous but we are not really righteous?

 

[freeatlast]

Yes, my point exactly. They are condemned for not believing in Christ which opposes what you stated. They are not condemned for sinning as you also stated.

You are missing the point. No One is condemned because they sin. We are already condemned. The sin we commit only verifies what we are. Sinners!
A pig is a pig no matter how old it is and even before it ever takes a breath or makes an oink or roles in the mud it is a pig. An oink or mud rolling does not make it a pig. His conception does.Two pigs make little pigs. A sinner is a sinner no matter how old. He is a sinner because of conception, not because of him sinning. Two sinners make a little sinner. It is a birth right or condition if you will. It is not because of an action we do any more then our salvation is an action because of what we do. We are sold unto sin because of another (Adam) We are bought with a price because of another(Jesus).

 

[Robert Snow]

If you do not accept Him you are denying Him! And if you never hear of Him you still are lost because we have the creation as witness. Read Romans

Exactly how would that "creation witness" apply to the unborn?

 

[freeatlast]

Exactly how would that "creation witness" apply to the unborn?

It doesn't. Scripture never directly deals with the salvation of children or the unborn. That answer was not dealing with unborn. It was dealing with a question about those who never hear.

 

[saved by grace]

I see you stopped at verse 12. How convenient. Verse 13 says this: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Man is naturally in a state of condemnation. He doesn't become condemned because of unbelief or rejection of Christ.

Verse 12-13 "If we endure we shall also reign with him. If we deny him he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful for he cannot deny himself."

This verse says that the elect can deny Christ and they will be denied. Christ will always remain faithful but only if we confess and repent everytime we sin.

 

[RAdam]

Yes, my point exactly. They are condemned for not believing in Christ which opposes what you stated. They are not condemned for sinning as you also stated.

Jesus said they were condemned already. He didn't say they became condemned by their unbelief. He said they were already condemned. They were under a state of condemnation before they believed not, and still are.

 

[RAdam]

Actually you can. Paul could have been referencing the Jews not having any special dispensation of salvation because they were Jews only, that they like the Gentiles were "by nature" children of wrath. Another possibility is the fact God can have nothing to do with our natures which became affected by the fall hence the curse of death being God's wrath against humanity.

A sinner is defined as one who sins. You are not defined as a murderer until you commit murder (either physically or in the heart). You are not a thief unless you steal. You are not a molester unless you molest someone. Being deemed a sinner just because you were conceived is far fetched and false. You have redefined the very word.

I haven't redefined anything. In fact, you are the one monkeying around with words and trying to change the meaning. Of course you would, given that this passage flatly and plainly denies your position. The only choices you have left are to accept the clear language of the bible or to be dishonest with that language. You've chosen the latter.

What does "by nature" mean? Well, it doesn't mean by action, that's for sure. For instance, a lion is a predator by nature. Whether that lion lives long enough to stalk and kill prey, it is still a predator by nature. It's very nature is inclined to stalk and kill prey. That is what lions do. If that lion lives long enough, that's what he'll do. Same thing with man. He is by nature a sinner. That is what he is. If he lives long enough, he'll sin by action. Why? Because he is a sinner by nature. That's why every single man and woman in history save the Son of God have sinned.

Paul is talking to regenerated people. They've been quickened by God, made alive. Previously they were dead in sins. Paul describes that condition as following the course of this world, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. While Paul is describing this condition he uses the plural pronoun you, referring to his audience. But then he does a most curious thing - in the next verse he says, "among whom also we all had our conversation (way of living) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath even as others." Paul is not just talking about these Gentile Ephesians, he includes himself in this, and he is a Jew. Jew and Gentile are both included in this, and it should be manifest that he is talking about all regenerated people. In other words, prior to regeneration we were all by nature the children of wrath. We were dead in sins, following the course of this world, following Satan, living in the lusts of our flesh, and were by nature children of wrath. This is the natural condition of man. That is because man is a sinner by nature and needs the great redemptive work of Jesus Christ.

You ever wonder why a parent doesn't have to teach a child to be bad? If one ever wants a lesson in depravity, just observe kids. They just naturally seem to be bad, and a parent has to work hard to teach them right. I love my son more than I can say, but he is a sinner, plain and simple. That boy is only two years old, but I'll tell you he'll do wrong in a second and he knows he's doing wrong. My son is just like me in that he is a sinner. He didn't become a sinner, he was born a sinner. The good news is Jesus is a friend of sinners. I firmly believe the bible teaches that the Lord Jesus saves all His people the same way.

 

[webdog]

You keep trying to justify your rejecting of scripture. The passage is not figurative or hyperbolic. It is literal. It is not an act that He became sin. It is not simply a statement without actually being real. It is literal. Just as literal as His suffering. He was not just acting like He was suffering. His suffering was not figurative or hyperbolic. He did not suffer simply to pacify Gods wrath. He suffered because He became sin and in doing so He satisfied God's wrath. As to the animal in the OT the answer is no. That was all symbolism. Neither could the animal pay for sin. That too was symbolism. But what the Lord did was actual, not symbolism. He became sin. 2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Notice it does not say that He acted like He was sin. Or that is was clamed that He was made sin. No He was made sin. When Jesus died He did not die because of His righteousness. He sacrificed Himself for us. His righteous life made it possible for Him to pay for what we could not afford to pay. The wages of sin is death. He had to literally become sin to pay the price for sin which is death.
Let me ask you something. This passage;
2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Are you suggesting that we (the saved) are not literally righteous, as righteous as God? Are you saying we are only being called righteous but we are not really righteous?

What a strawman. Who said anything about his suffering being hyperbolic? I said Jesus "becoming" sin was hyperbolic. God cannot "become" sin. It does NOT say literally He became a sinner...you added that to the text. Jesus is also referred to as a Lamb...you take that literally as well?

I have not "suggested" anything even remotely similar to your question.

 

[webdog]

Jesus said they were condemned already. He didn't say they became condemned by their unbelief. He said they were already condemned. They were under a state of condemnation before they believed not, and still are.

If you do not believe, you remain condemned as a sinner. I'm a sinner still and I'm not condemned. The difference is faith...not being a sinner.

 

[RAdam]

If you do not believe, you remain condemned as a sinner. I'm a sinner still and I'm not condemned. The difference is faith...not being a sinner.

You remain condemned, that's exactly right. You don't become condemned. Unbelief is not what sends a person to hell. That person was already condemned to that fate.

 

[Winman]

Paul said we were by nature the children of wrath even as others. Not by action, by nature. You can deny the clear language of David all you want, but you cannot get around that statement right there. Men are sinners by nature. They are dead in sin, alienated from God, under condemnation, and deserving of hell. Praise God for sending Jesus Christ to pull men out of this condition.

Yes, and Paul also spoke of those who by nature obey the law.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Nature means learned behavior. No one is born a sinner, but absolutely 100% of mankind will become sinners.

The scriptures do not speak of a sin nature, they speak of us being flesh. The flesh has desires and lusts. These desires and lusts are not necessarily evil, it is not wrong to be attracted to the opposite sex, and there is nothing wrong with enjoying a healthy sex life with your spouse. It is wrong to enjoy these activities outside marriage.

It is not evil to be hungry, we need this urge to keep us healthy. However, it becomes wrong when we eat to excess and damage our health.

Eve had an appetite. When she looked on the forbidden fruit it looked good to eat. She also thought it would make her wise, and there is nothing wrong with being wise, we are told to seek wisdom in scripture.

However, we have to restrain these desires and lusts. We cannot eat all we desire, we cannot have relations with every woman we see. Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat of this fruit and disobeyed. It was when they knowingly and willingly broke God's law that they became sinners. Man becomes a sinner the exact same way. Little children cannot understand the law or the consequences of breaking it and therefore are not held accountable. Our laws work the same way, we do not prosecute little children, the mentally handicapped, or the truly insane. Law recognizes that a person must have a concept of right and wrong to be held accountable. The scriptures say the same exact thing, I showed many scriptures where God speaks of children not having discernment, not knowing right from wrong.

It would be impossible for the Gentiles by nature to keep the law if everyone is born a sinner as you claim. But if nature speaks of learned behavior then it is possible. Even unsaved people have rules of conduct.

 

[RAdam]

Paul didn't say what nature it was by which those Gentiles kept the law.

These people Paul is talking about, let's consider them:

- They don't have the written law. The Jew did in those times, the Gentile didn't.
- They did the things contained in the law. Well this begs the question of how they did those things when they had no written revelation of them. This would be a great mystery were it not for the next big revealed fact about these people.
- They had the law written in their heart, and this was shown by their doing the things in the law. Now isn't this interesting. Paul says they had the law written in their heart. How? Who can write something in a man's heart? Well, God, as part of the new covenant, promised to write His law in our hearts. Isn't that interesting. Apparently only God can write His law in the heart of a man. Apparently God wrote His law in their hearts, and what's more, they are God's people.

Now, a few things about carnal man. Paul said the carnal mind is emnity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The carnal mind hates God's law, will not be subject unto it, and thus will not perform the things in the law. These Gentiles in Romans 2 are different. They are a law unto themselves, though they don't even have a copy of the law to read. These Gentiles don't look like the carnal man Paul described as hating God's law, instead they look like they have the inward man that delights in God's law. They look regenerated to me.

Now I know this goes against the theology of many people, but the only way to read that passage, and compare it to other scripture, and make any sense out of it is to conclude that these Gentiles have a new nature, a born again nature, and that it is by that nature that they do the things contained in the law.

 

[freeatlast]

If you do not believe, you remain condemned as a sinner. I'm a sinner still and I'm not condemned. The difference is faith...not being a sinner.

Actually if you are still a sinner then you ARE condemned. The term sinner is for the lost, not the saved.

Matt. 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

We who are saved are saints, not sinners.

Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all [quarters], he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Rom. 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also

 

[RAdam]

Actually, we are still sinners. Sinners sin. I still sin and so do you. We are all still sinners. Now, we are sinners saved by grace, but nevertheless we are sinners.

 

[freeatlast]

What a strawman. Who said anything about his suffering being hyperbolic? I said Jesus "becoming" sin was hyperbolic. God cannot "become" sin. It does NOT say literally He became a sinner...you added that to the text. Jesus is also referred to as a Lamb...you take that literally as well?

I have not "suggested" anything even remotely similar to your question.

My friend your theology is a shipwreck. While Jesus was God of eternity past He became a man. He put off what He had. That is not to say that He stopped being God, but it is to say that He was a man and as a man He took on sin. He literally became sin for us and paid the price which we could not pay.

 

[freeatlast]

Actually, we are still sinners. Sinners sin. I still sin and so do you. We are all still sinners. Now, we are sinners saved by grace, but nevertheless we are sinners.

The saved are saints, not sinners. We were sinners because we were born sinners. We are now saints because we are born saints. Sin does not make us sinners and living good lives does not make us saints. Birth makes us sinners and the new birth makes us saints.

 

[RAdam]

Yes, we are saints. But saints are still sinners. They aren't dead in sin, but they haven't stopped sinning either.