An anti-Calvinist conundrum

You're SBC, right? Here's what your forefathers said:

"God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures."

Do you disagree?

 

Sorry, I was just quoting the Bible. You'll have to argue with it that it really doesn't mean what it says.

 

So, neither do Baptists agree on what they believe. What is your point?

 

But I'll go so far as to say a 5 point Calvinist can be a Christian. Will you say the same thing about a non-Calvinist?

 

Diane

does it again!

with a little help from her friends ...

Thanks John!

 

Diane,

I agree that they can be ... but only if they have asked Jesus Christ to forgive them of their sins and become their Lord and Savior ...

 

whatever

"Judas hung himself." "Go ye therefore and do likewise"

You know it is the strangest thing ... how people can say they read the Bible ... It is like the "Holy Grail" of argumentation. The first strike nuclear device. The last strike megaton dombsday bomb.

I really don't know what you were trying to argue for, but God's Word is God's Word.

 

God isn't pushing some over the edge of the cliff and holding back others. Thats the point. The whole world is standing on the edge (sinful and undeserving of salvation) and is jumping off. God lovingly chooses to catch some. Not due to anything good found in them but for His own purpose and good pleasure and soverignty.

Saying it isn't so because *thats just mean* is just humanistic reasoning. The same as the unbelievers saying *There can't be such thing as a God of love due to all the war and famine in the world*
Yawn.

 

Scene: Superman catches a falling plane, plucks out a few passengers, then releases the plane and remaining passengers to crash to earth in a ball of flame. Upon landing, the people cheer Superman.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

"Superman catches some of the planes, for his own reasons, but not others. We don't know what those reasons are, so the Calvinist says, "I have great faith in Superman's judgment and I bow to his superior (holy) will."

Again, back to agnosticism. The whole Bible, yet, who knows? Genesis to maps, yet we still do not know. Yep, that's the Gospel...who knows?

 

I have been civil in every post I have made and I resent the fact that you accuse me of "vicious hate mongering." That's totally ungrounded. I trust that Pastor Larry, as the moderator, would not have allowed this. I think you are taking things too personally.

 

No the first is a mystery and the second is a door to open theism....

Icthus...
He was most certainly NOT here spaeking to the "elect". Note, that He says that they were "unwilling" to "come to me in order that you may have eternal life". This is not something that was done by some external power, but of themselves they chose not to follow Jseus. We see from the chapter, that it was the Jews who were trying to murder Jesus, that Jesus addresses these words to, and yet He speaks of them being able/unable to come to Him for eternal life.

Of course they where not the elect... why do you think they were unwilling? .... The desire evil not good they are UNABLE to come... He could of said the same thing... this DOES parallel where he says UNABLE (doesn't say able)!! They are and will always be UNWILLING because they are not able because they havn't been enabled... easy

 

"Judas hung himself." "Go ye therefore and do likewise"

You know it is the strangest thing ... how people can say they read the Bible ... It is like the "Holy Grail" of argumentation. The first strike nuclear device. The last strike megaton dombsday bomb.

I really don't know what you were trying to argue for, but God's Word is God's Word. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello El,

It would probably help if you would go back to the first page and read my original post. That way you would know what I was trying to argue for. Why even reply if you don't know what the argument is about? Let me clue you in.

Gen. 50:20 - "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

The Bible uses the exact same verbs to describe the intent of Joseph's brothers in their sins against him and God's intent for those actions. Yet the non-Calvinists on here simply won't use the same language that the Bible uses. Instead they have God reacting to what sinners do to turn their actions around on them. That's just not the way the Bible explains it.

 

The Bible uses the exact same verbs

Whatever... don't confuse them with the facts... they think phrase construction, declinations, tenses and contexts don't mean much... God gave us the Bible in English and that's all we have to know!