An anti-Calvinist conundrum

[whatever]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
So even the Calvinites can't agree on what they believe?

We have had some Reformed Baptists on this board who have openly posted that God preordains ALL things.

You're SBC, right? Here's what your forefathers said:

"God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures."

Do you disagree?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by icthus:
I think that you have missed the point here. God "uses" circumstances and people to carry out His will, and His plans. But this is not the same as saying that He makes (or causes, or preordains) us sin. God took the injustice that was done to Joseph, and turned it around for good. Likewise, God used Judas to carry out his own wishes. Please note that the Bible clearly says that the devil entered the heart of Judas, that he should do this terrable thing against Jesus. But, as bad as it was, yes it was part of the plan of God for our Redemption.

We simply cannot suggest that God is the cause of anytinh that is evil and sinful. For He is a Holy and Righteous God.

Sorry, I was just quoting the Bible. You'll have to argue with it that it really doesn't mean what it says.

 

[TC]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
So even the Calvinites can't agree on what they believe?

So, neither do Baptists agree on what they believe. What is your point?

 

[dianetavegia]

But I'll go so far as to say a 5 point Calvinist can be a Christian. Will you say the same thing about a non-Calvinist?

 

[El_Guero]

Diane

does it again!

with a little help from her friends ...

Swish... crack... and Diane hits it out of the park!!!

Thanks John!

 

[El_Guero]

Diane,

I agree that they can be ... but only if they have asked Jesus Christ to forgive them of their sins and become their Lord and Savior ...

But I'll go so far as to say a 5 point Calvinist can be a Christian.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Creating and then condemning people to hell without even a chance of redemption is just downright mean. Show me the love!

Wow, God must be mean then. The fallen angels were never offered such redemption. Your entire argument is 'God must be mean if what you say is true.' That is the same logic an atheist uses.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
But I'll go so far as to say a 5 point Calvinist can be a Christian. Will you say the same thing about a non-Calvinist?

Of course. I was an arminian the first 17 of my 18 years as a Christian. That is not what we are talking about. The question is: do you have a Biblical understanding of grace or are you reshaping God to conform to something more pallatable?

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Diane

does it again!

with a little help from her friends ...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Swish... crack... and Diane hits it out of the park!!!

Thanks John! </font>[/QUOTE]I think you're in the wrong ballpark. You're also trolling like Wes does.

 

[El_Guero]

whatever

Sorry, I was just quoting the Bible. You'll have to argue with it

"Judas hung himself." "Go ye therefore and do likewise"

You know it is the strangest thing ... how people can say they read the Bible ... It is like the "Holy Grail" of argumentation. The first strike nuclear device. The last strike megaton dombsday bomb.

I really don't know what you were trying to argue for, but God's Word is God's Word.

 

[Rich_UK]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:

Creating and then condemning people to hell without even a chance of redemption is just downright mean. Show me the love!

God isn't pushing some over the edge of the cliff and holding back others. Thats the point. The whole world is standing on the edge (sinful and undeserving of salvation) and is jumping off. God lovingly chooses to catch some. Not due to anything good found in them but for His own purpose and good pleasure and soverignty.

Saying it isn't so because *thats just mean* is just humanistic reasoning. The same as the unbelievers saying *There can't be such thing as a God of love due to all the war and famine in the world*
Yawn.

 

[JohnB]

Scene: Superman catches a falling plane, plucks out a few passengers, then releases the plane and remaining passengers to crash to earth in a ball of flame. Upon landing, the people cheer Superman.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Scene: Superman catches a falling plane, plucks out a few passengers, then releases the plane and remaining passengers to crash to earth in a ball of flame. Upon landing, the people cheer Superman.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Thank you for so vividly demonstrating the fallacy of the Arminian position. Superman (Jesus) catches the whole plane (universal atonement) then removes some from the plane, those who want to be rescued, but he leaves those who aren't aware they are crashing to die in the crash.

The Calvinist illustration would be everybody is piloting his own plane and, due to his poor piloting skills, is flying it right into the ground. Superman catches some of the planes, for his own reasons, but not others. We don't know what those reasons are, so the Calvinist says, "I have great faith in Superman's judgment and I bow to his superior (holy) will." The Arminian says, "Superman is a vicious monster who let those poor people die for no reason at all! They were just asleep! Why didn't he wake them and ask them if they wanted to be rescued?"

 

[JohnB]

"Superman catches some of the planes, for his own reasons, but not others. We don't know what those reasons are, so the Calvinist says, "I have great faith in Superman's judgment and I bow to his superior (holy) will."

Again, back to agnosticism. The whole Bible, yet, who knows? Genesis to maps, yet we still do not know. Yep, that's the Gospel...who knows?

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by JohnB:
"Superman catches some of the planes, for his own reasons, but not others. We don't know what those reasons are, so the Calvinist says, "I have great faith in Superman's judgment and I bow to his superior (holy) will."

Again, back to agnosticism. The whole Bible, yet, who knows? Genesis to maps, yet we still do not know. Yep, that's the Gospel...who knows?

That seems to be your typical response. When the fallacy of your illustration is pointed out to you your response is a vicious charge of "agnosticism" and some disjointed drivel about "Genesis to maps" and nobody knowing, as if you, and you alone, have completely discerned the mind of God and have all the answers. I have bad news. You haven't and you don't

Have you ever considered discussing these things honestly and without the vicious hate-mongering attitude? Try it some time. You may discover a whole new side to your nature. And you might just come to understand what it means to be Christ like.

 

[JohnB]

I have been civil in every post I have made and I resent the fact that you accuse me of "vicious hate mongering." That's totally ungrounded. I trust that Pastor Larry, as the moderator, would not have allowed this. I think you are taking things too personally.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
Have you ever considered discussing these things honestly and without the vicious hate-mongering attitude? Try it some time. You may discover a whole new side to your nature. And you might just come to understand what it means to be Christ like.

I disagree with JohnB's position but I don't think he's guilty of 'hate-mongering.' If anything that would be Wes or Mike but JohnB has been pretty civil up to this point i think.

 

[rc]

No the first is a mystery and the second is a door to open theism....

Icthus...
He was most certainly NOT here spaeking to the "elect". Note, that He says that they were "unwilling" to "come to me in order that you may have eternal life". This is not something that was done by some external power, but of themselves they chose not to follow Jseus. We see from the chapter, that it was the Jews who were trying to murder Jesus, that Jesus addresses these words to, and yet He speaks of them being able/unable to come to Him for eternal life.

Of course they where not the elect... why do you think they were unwilling? .... The desire evil not good they are UNABLE to come... He could of said the same thing... this DOES parallel where he says UNABLE (doesn't say able)!! They are and will always be UNWILLING because they are not able because they havn't been enabled... easy

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
whatever

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Sorry, I was just quoting the Bible. You'll have to argue with it

"Judas hung himself." "Go ye therefore and do likewise"

You know it is the strangest thing ... how people can say they read the Bible ... It is like the "Holy Grail" of argumentation. The first strike nuclear device. The last strike megaton dombsday bomb.

I really don't know what you were trying to argue for, but God's Word is God's Word. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello El,

It would probably help if you would go back to the first page and read my original post. That way you would know what I was trying to argue for. Why even reply if you don't know what the argument is about? Let me clue you in.

Gen. 50:20 - "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

The Bible uses the exact same verbs to describe the intent of Joseph's brothers in their sins against him and God's intent for those actions. Yet the non-Calvinists on here simply won't use the same language that the Bible uses. Instead they have God reacting to what sinners do to turn their actions around on them. That's just not the way the Bible explains it.

 

[rc]

The Bible uses the exact same verbs

Whatever... don't confuse them with the facts... they think phrase construction, declinations, tenses and contexts don't mean much... God gave us the Bible in English and that's all we have to know!