An anti-Calvinist conundrum

[whetstone]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whetstone:
If an evil man is bent on killing the President, but it isn't God's will, can this man succeed?

If an evil man is bent on rejecting Christ, but it isn't God's will, can this man succeed?

No. Not if God chooses to stop the action. Yes if God chooses to allow us to live with those consequences.

Yes. God gives each man free will to accept or reject the free gift of salvation.

God allowed David to kill Uriah and impregnate Bathsheba but then killed David's newborn son as punishment.

A Calvinist might say God made David kill Uriah, the God made David sin with Bathsheba and then God killed an innocent baby because of God's preordained actions/ sins.

God gave Solomon great wisdom and Solomon made a bunch of stupid decisions. After all, he had 1,000 mother in laws. </font>[/QUOTE]Your answers are inconsistant. That's all I meant to show.

As for a Calvinist supposedly saying God 'made' David sin- could you please cite any Calvinist (ANY) that says such a thing? Could you cite 1 single source where a Calvinist claims that God makes any man sin? You misunderstand Calvinism at a fundamental level so of course you hate it. Maybe someday you will stop impressing what you THINK Calvinism states upon us.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by MargoWriter:
Just because we have the free will to kill doesn't mean we have the free will to find God and trust in him ourselves . . .

Hi, then what did Jesus mean in John chapter 5?

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (verses 39-40)

He was most certainly NOT here spaeking to the "elect". Note, that He says that they were "unwilling" to "come to me in order that you may have eternal life". This is not something that was done by some external power, but of themselves they chose not to follow Jseus. We see from the chapter, that it was the Jews who were trying to murder Jesus, that Jesus addresses these words to, and yet He speaks of them being able/unable to come to Him for eternal life.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whetstone:
If an evil man is bent on killing the President, but it isn't God's will, can this man succeed?

If an evil man is bent on rejecting Christ, but it isn't God's will, can this man succeed?

No. Not if God chooses to stop the action. Yes if God chooses to allow us to live with those consequences.

Yes. God gives each man free will to accept or reject the free gift of salvation.

God allowed David to kill Uriah and impregnate Bathsheba but then killed David's newborn son as punishment.

A Calvinist might say God made David kill Uriah, the God made David sin with Bathsheba and then God killed an innocent baby because of God's preordained actions/ sins.

God gave Solomon great wisdom and Solomon made a bunch of stupid decisions. After all, he had 1,000 mother in laws. </font>[/QUOTE]Your answers are inconsistant. That's all I meant to show.

As for a Calvinist supposedly saying God 'made' David sin- could you please cite any Calvinist (ANY) that says such a thing? Could you cite 1 single source where a Calvinist claims that God makes any man sin? You misunderstand Calvinism at a fundamental level so of course you hate it. Maybe someday you will stop impressing what you THINK Calvinism states upon us. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Whetstone, we are not here guessing what Calvinists "think", as you are no doubt aware. We come back to that issue that Calvinists (I read this in Dabney, C Hodge, A Hodge, L Bottener, Machen, etc) hold to, that God has preordained all things that come to pass. This is something that you have to face up to, and deal with, and stop making excuses to what the meaning of "preordain" means, as we all have access to good dictionaries that are very claer as to what it does mean.

I pulled an article off the Net a few months back by Wayne Grudem, which is 36 pages long. But here is a quotation from it:

"In spite of all our foregoing statements, we have to come to the point where we confess that we do not understand how it is that god can ordain that we carry out evil deeds, and yet hold us accountable for them and not be blames Himself"

Lets make no mistake here. It is very much Calvinistic dogma, that God "ordains" that we sin. The Random House Dictionary says that "ordain" means "to decree". If this does not make God the author of sin, then the meaning of the word "ordains" has been changed by Calvinists.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by icthus:
Hey Whetstone, we are not here guessing what Calvinists "think", as you are no doubt aware. We come back to that issue that Calvinists (I read this in Dabney, C Hodge, A Hodge, L Bottener, Machen, etc) hold to, that God has preordained all things that come to pass. This is something that you have to face up to, and deal with, and stop making excuses to what the meaning of "preordain" means, as we all have access to good dictionaries that are very claer as to what it does mean.

I pulled an article off the Net a few months back by Wayne Grudem, which is 36 pages long. But here is a quotation from it:

"In spite of all our foregoing statements, we have to come to the point where we confess that we do not understand how it is that god can ordain that we carry out evil deeds, and yet hold us accountable for them and not be blames Himself"

Lets make no mistake here. It is very much Calvinistic dogma, that God "ordains" that we sin. The Random House Dictionary says that "ordain" means "to decree". If this does not make God the author of sin, then the meaning of the word "ordains" has been changed by Calvinists.

Hi Icthus. Basically, the mental roadblock you hit is you are unable to accept that God can preordain the entirety of history without being held accountable as an active participant. Like the author you quote- I cannot reconcile this mystery in my mind fully, but I need not reconcile it to acknowledge it or accept it. Let's examine two Biblical events that were sins (off the top of my head)- yet preordained to happen by God Himself.

2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

God decreed that David's house would turn to continual murder and strife. Was God an active participant because He thus decreed this sin?

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Christ said he MUST be lifted up. The event of his crucifixion was preordained (decreed) to happen. There was no uncertainty about this prophecy. it HAD to happen 100% as Christ prophecied. So I suppose I turn the question around to you: If Christ preordained it- is he responsible for that sin?

I don't ask you to understand this- only to accept it because it is so clearly demonstrated in scripture.

 

[JohnB]

Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists have irreconcilable mysteries in their theologies.
They just put the mystery in a different spot.

For Calvinists, it is "How can God ordain all things but not be responsible for evil."

For non-Calvinists it is "How can God foreknow all things without foreordaining all things."

(Of course, the second is truly a mystery while the first is just nonsense.)

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists have irreconcilable mysteries in their theologies.
They just put the mystery in a different spot.

For Calvinists, it is "How can God ordain all things but not be responsible for evil."

For non-Calvinists it is "How can God foreknow all things without foreordaining all things."

(Of course, the second is truly a mystery while the first is just nonsense.)

The reason I think the second conundrum is quite a bit more substantial is because you are then questioning God's power rather than His motives. Calvinists give full and due credit to the power of God to run things, yet admit they are in the dark sometimes as to God's motives. Arminians are unwilling to give due credit to God's power and attempt to justify His motives by limiting His power.

 

[JohnB]

Based on your reasoning, the God of Calvinism is a wimp.

Which God is more sovereign and powerful: the one who must ordain all things, including evil? Or the one who does not have to ordain evil yet is still able to work all things for good?

I think "my God" is all powerful, all holy and most of all, ALL LOVING!

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Based on your reasoning, the God of Calvinism is a wimp.

Which God is more sovereign and powerful: the one who must ordain all things, including evil? Or the one who does not have to ordain evil yet is still able to work all things for good?

I think "my God" is all powerful, all holy and most of all, ALL LOVING!

This logic baffles me and it also becomes a childish 'my God is better than your God.' First off- if we both believe in the triune God of the Bible- we worship the same God, so saying 'my God' and 'your God' is kinda stupid. We're discussing the nature of God based on His actions in the Bible and our own reasoning. We are still talking about Jehovah here.

"All loving." Hmm. God is "all loving" because He doesn't ordain all things? I'm not sure I get that one. Wouldn't he be MORE loving to be there when a sparrow falls. Wouldn't He be MORE loving to number the hairs on our heads and shape us in the womb? Wouldn't He be MORE loving to control the path of our life so we don't go astray? Which is more loving: a father that let's his child drink, do drugs and have illicit sex, or a father that confines the actions of his kid to protect them? The 'loving' God you speak of is nothing more than the careless parent of the late 1900's! It is MORE loving for God to guide our lives according to His will than to leave us to our own devices.

You court open theism or deism. God isn't some watch maker that wound up the world and let it go. He is actively involved in everything from the direction of the wind to who won the NCAA tournament last night. If He were anything less, history would be beyond His control.

 

[JohnB]

It is you that said "Arminians are unwilling to give due credit to God's power and attempt to justify His motives by limiting His power."

Though not an Arminian, I took that to mean that that you think that I limit God's power. My point was not childish crowing, but rather than to point out that it is Calvinists, not non-Calvinists who limit the power of God.

 

[JohnB]

And then you close with wild speculation. Deism? Open theism? C'mon dude, now you're getting silly.

For my part, I never accuse Calvinists of theistic determinism or fatalism.

 

[dianetavegia]

Wouldn't he be MORE loving to be there when a sparrow falls. Wouldn't He be MORE loving to number the hairs on our heads and shape us in the womb? Wouldn't He be MORE loving to control the path of our life so we don't go astray?

But see, YOUR concept of God is 'kill that sparrow, keep that one there', 'abort that baby, save that one over there', 'let that man run off on his wife and ruin a ministry but let that fella do okay'. Keep us from going astray? Man what planet are you living on? We go astray every day!

Creating and then condemning people to hell without even a chance of redemption is just downright mean. Show me the love!

If your concept is right, Calvin's concept, then God must wish he had 'do overs'.

Explain this: Why the 10 Commandments since God preordained us breaking them? Why even send Jesus if God had already chosen who He was taking for His own and who He was sending to hell? Sounds pretty cruel to me to punish your son for the sins you preordained!

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by JohnB:
For Calvinists, it is "How can God ordain all things but not be responsible for evil."

Simple. God does not foreordain all things in the sense of being the First Cause.

Well, there went another conundrum down the proverbial drain!

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
But see, YOUR concept of God is 'kill that sparrow, keep that one there', 'abort that baby, save that one over there', 'let that man run off on his wife and ruin a ministry but let that fella do okay'.

Diane, I can't believe you would stoop that low.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JohnB:
For Calvinists, it is "How can God ordain all things but not be responsible for evil."

Simple. God does not foreordain all things in the sense of being the First Cause.

Well, there went another conundrum down the proverbial drain! </font>[/QUOTE]I don't believe you can prove that statement!

 

[JohnB]

TCassidy,

If God is the not the first cause, who or what takes precedence over Him? And if someone or something precedes God, how could God be sovereign?

And why is what Diane said wrong? If God ordains all sin, does that not include every murder, rape, child abduction, molestation, abortion, holocaust, etc etc?

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
I don't believe you can prove that statement!

You've been exposed as a troll. Go away.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by JohnB:
If God is the not the first cause, who or what takes precedence over Him?

Nothing takes precedence over Him. You do understand the concept of "first cause" don't you?

And if someone or something precedes God, how could God be sovereign?

Non sequitur. The question is based on a faulty a priori assumption.

And why is what Diane said wrong? If God ordains all sin, does that not include every murder, rape, child abduction, molestation, abortion, holocaust, etc etc?

Non sequitur. The question is based on a faulty a priori assumption. God does not ordain all sin.

 

[JohnB]

Sorry, TCassidy,
I forgot that you are the "non-calvinistic," particular baptist who does not believe that God ordained all things. I am having a hard time keeping track of everyones favorite flavor on this board.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Sorry, TCassidy,
I forgot that you are the "non-calvinistic," particular baptist who does not believe that God ordained all things. I am having a hard time keeping track of everyones favorite flavor on this board.

I have had the discussion before with Diane. The majority of Calvinists are Infralapsarian. They believe God permitted the fall. He did not cause the fall. He did not ordain the fall as First Cause. Only the relatively rare supralapsarian believes that God ordained all things, including sin, as First Cause.

 

[dianetavegia]

So even the Calvinites can't agree on what they believe?

We have had some Reformed Baptists on this board who have openly posted that God preordains ALL things.