An articulate well balanced approach. What say you?

[The Archangel]

Until you realize that everyone doesn't agree with your interpretation of what the Scripture means, you will continue to have this inflated sense of superiority in your Biblical understanding.

...as if you had the corner on interpretation. ...as if you are somehow immune from this so-called "inflated" sense of superiority.

Puh...lease!

The Archangel

 

[jbh28]

Until you realize that everyone doesn't agree with your interpretation of what the Scripture means, you will continue to have this inflated sense of superiority in your Biblical understanding.

Well, that was really profitable to the discussion....

 

[DHK]

DHK,

A biblical calvinists believe men have to repent and believe the gospel as much or more than anyone else.

Spurgeon one time said you do not have to reconcile friends. That is why he preached and urged sinners to repent and believe,

In a forum like this ...keep in mind that the non cals are usually trying to bait the calvinist into denying mans full responsibility before God.
They want one proof text or magic bullet, that they can use to say the whole system is only man-made...or ...that is your opinion.
Because it is the teaching of scripture,the calvinist has the whole bible to use. ... as there are no texts that are off limits to this truth.
The frustration comes from the non cal who then usually says....calvinists are so "arrogant"......this takes place when the correct biblical answers are given ....so when there is no way out...there is always..the arrogant card.

The calvinist comes off as arrogant...because they are fully confident that God is a promise keeping God.....he cannot deny Himself...so salvation of the elect is certain.... a biblical calvinist...has seen and believed this truth from the word...and there is no turning back from it....The verses are everywhere!
So all the verses that speak of what men are responsible to do...are not a problem, because we know God works in His people to do all His good pleasure. He has already done it in us who at one time were complete rebels against God and His truth.

I know all about the attitudes. You do too. I was just going to let you reconcile the two passages without any attitude. I know we both stick to the Bible.

 

[quantumfaith]

Robert ,
It is not my interpretation but the scriptural teaching. Doctrine is not like a poem in high school english class where the teacher says....now robert how do you "feel" about this poem....what does it mean"to you".....and then see what the next person Feels that it means to them.
The scriture says and teaches an exact objective truth...not a subjective truth. All the verses fit together without contradiction. These truths were written before you and I were born. many others have seen them also.

Robert....God's truth is meant to be believed and enjoyed by God's people...all of them...not just half.

There is not an inflated sense of superiority as there is a humble realization that without God's mercy we would be on the express train to the second death in hell...
Despite what you might think...no cal is eager for anyone to go there.
We are eager to obey the great commission.....to whom much is given, much is required.....we become zealous for truth and the spread of the gospel.
Robert....unless I am laid aside sick in bed...there is not a day that goes by where I do not speak with several people about the gospel and their responsibility before God. Does what you believe enable you to do the same thing?

With all due respect Icon, it is indeed how one interprets, reads and puts All the pieces of God's revelation together as whole that you do (as well as everyone else). There is nothing at all wrong with being confident in your convictions, what "rubs" is the "linguistic attitude" one uses to convey that confidence. There are multitudes of people, many even here in BB land that hold strictly to DoG and yet they support and defend their position in spirit of humility and meekness.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert ,
It is not my interpretation but the scriptural teaching.

See what I mean? You are hopeless!

 

[Robert Snow]

Well, that was really profitable to the discussion....

Who elected you monitor of what is and is not profitable? You worry about your postings, and I will worry about mine!

 

[quantumfaith]

...as if you had the corner on interpretation. ...as if you are somehow immune from this so-called "inflated" sense of superiority.

Puh...lease!

The Archangel

Archangel, you are correct in implication, NNE has the monopoly on "absolute correctness" where theology, or anything else for that matter, is concerned.

 

[Iconoclast]

QF,,,

There are multitudes of people, many even here in BB land that hold strictly to DoG and yet they support and defend their position in spirit of humility and meekness

Yes quantum that is true...some are gifted with a greater measure of grace than I possess at the present time.I am glad they are around.
There are others like myself who try to offer help but am not as patient with foolish and ignorant statements as we could be.
I find that I can be very patient with sincere persons who have never heard some of the teaching,and are looking for clarification,or to ask questions about their soul, or sanctification,and other issues .

When I see open scoffing and mocking of truth however....I do not feel to remain silent.... act meek, or weak, or ignore all of these skeptics.

 

[quantumfaith]

QF,,,


Yes quantum that is true...some are gifted with a greater measure of grace than I possess at the present time.I am glad they are around.
There are others like myself who try to offer help but am not as patient with foolish and ignorant statements as we could be.
I find that I can be very patient with sincere persons who have never heard some of the teaching,and are looking for clarification,or to ask questions about their soul, or sanctification,and other issues .

When I see open scoffing and mocking of truth however....I do not feel to remain silent.... act meek, or weak, or ignore all of these skeptics.

Do you "honestly" feel when others hold a differing view from yourself that they are scoffing at truth. Let me be clear, I see nothing wrong with feeling that another is wrong in the position that they take, and in a spirit of gentleness and love offering your correction. I personally and honestly do not that think that myself and others who may feel differently than you, in our hearts are scoffing at truth. We (they) are as equally convinced that we (they) possess a more correct interpretation of truth. (this was not a dig)

Blessings

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you "honestly" feel when others hold a differing view from yourself that they are scoffing at truth. Let me be clear, I see nothing wrong with feeling that another is wrong in the position that they take, and in a spirit of gentleness and love offering your correction. I personally and honestly do not that think that myself and others who may feel differently than you, in our hearts are scoffing at truth. We (they) are as equally convinced that we (they) possess a more correct interpretation of truth. (this was not a dig)

Blessings

Quantum,
I do not have a problem with honest dis agreement. If you think back or look back...when someone is sincere...like allan, or skandelon. or you, or menageriekeeper.....you get a sincere response.
There are some who just mock and scoff and despise truth....

A person is going to hold to what they hold until God allows them to see differently. I believe in a face to face meeting ...there would be a big difference for several reasons.

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum,
I do not have a problem with honest dis agreement. If you think back or look back...when someone is sincere...like allan, or skandelon. or you, or menageriekeeper.....you get a sincere response.
There are some who just mock and scoff and despise truth....

A person is going to hold to what they hold until God allows them to see differently. I believe in a face to face meeting ...there would be a big difference for several reasons.

Not sure what you mean by a face to face meeting.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not sure what you mean by a face to face meeting.

i mean when you meet a person face to face with open bibles,and discuss truth...the conversation stays on track..because you are looking at the person and if they start to not understand what you are saying...it can be immeadiatley corrected. less to misunderstand...you hear if they are joking.or serious...etc.

 

[The Archangel]

Archangel, you are correct in implication, NNE has the monopoly on "absolute correctness" where theology, or anything else for that matter, is concerned.

Quantum...

For the most part I agree...with two important caveats.

1.) This is not to say that "absolute correctness" is not possible.

For the most part, a high degree of correctness is obtainable. There are, however, difficult passages which require a bit of humility...more on that in a minute.

2.) Some are closer than others

There are things in the text that some people clearly get wrong. It's not open to opinion, and, in many cases, it's a simple matter of grammar.

Having said that, it is important for those with deep, well-informed, and grammatically-correct opinions to admit where the difficult passages are and to have a humility about those passages. In other words, when discussing a notoriously difficult passage, it is important to admit the difficulty and discuss said passage with charity and kindness.

The Bible's passage do not have multiple meanings, though they may have multiple applications. Therefore, it is of utmost importance to get to the heart of the meaning.

And, while none of us is perfect, we should not go to an opposite extreme by saying that, since absolute correctness may not be possible, no one can be said to be correct over another. This is basically akin to the saying "what the this passage means to me is..." It, frankly, doesn't matter what any given passage means to any one of us. It matters greatly what God intends it to mean...and that is our task--to get to the meaning.

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

i mean when you meet a person face to face with open bibles,and discuss truth...the conversation stays on track..because you are looking at the person and if they start to not understand what you are saying...it can be immeadiatley corrected. less to misunderstand...you hear if they are joking.or serious...etc.

Ahhh, you mean "we" understand one another a bit better due to all the non-verbal cues etc. Whereas textual communication is often interpreted as quite terse, and attitudes are often misconstrued. ???:thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum...

For the most part I agree...with two important caveats.

1.) This is not to say that "absolute correctness" is not possible.

For the most part, a high degree of correctness is obtainable. There are, however, difficult passages which require a bit of humility...more on that in a minute.

2.) Some are closer than others

There are things in the text that some people clearly get wrong. It's not open to opinion, and, in many cases, it's a simple matter of grammar.

Having said that, it is important for those with deep, well-informed, and grammatically-correct opinions to admit where the difficult passages are and to have a humility about those passages. In other words, when discussing a notoriously difficult passage, it is important to admit the difficulty and discuss said passage with charity and kindness.

The Bible's passage do not have multiple meanings, though they may have multiple applications. Therefore, it is of utmost importance to get to the heart of the meaning.

And, while none of us is perfect, we should not go to an opposite extreme by saying that, since absolute correctness may not be possible, no one can be said to be correct over another. This is basically akin to the saying "what the this passage means to me is..." It, frankly, doesn't matter what any given passage means to any one of us. It matters greatly what God intends it to mean...and that is our task--to get to the meaning.

The Archangel

Thank You for your spirit here. I am reminded however of my mentor, my OT Professor, in which we often discussed in classes "duble entendres" (sp), I do share his teaching that some scriptures have more than a single intent.

I remain convinced, as the author of the OP article, that scripture is indeed replete with tensions, tensions to cause us to think, meditate and intellectually pursue their resolution. Particularly Sovereignty v. Free Will.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You mean permitted free will don't you? Because I believe that completely separating from God is to be in league with the devil. We are not God's equals....we do not have parity with Him. Without that (Permitted Free Will), just admit your reshuffling the deck.

 

[Robert Snow]

I have never understood how people having free will detracts from God's sovereignty.

Since God is the one granting free will, and since it is completely under His authority that it exists, God is still completely in control. In fact, I believe mankind having free will actually adds to God's greatness!

God is able to allow free will to his creation, yet He also uses this to accomplish His will. In spite of our ability to choose, we are not able to choose in such a way as to thwart God's purposes being accomplished. With or without our corporation, God directs His creation in the direction He desires.

God also does this while making a way for sinful man to be reconciled to Him without God compromising His justice. Jesus Christ, being God Himself, accomplished this redemptive plan in spite of Satan, man's choices or any other thing that happened.

In my opinion, any God that is able to grant free will to his creation, yet still accomplish exactly what He wants to happen, is truly Sovereign.

 

[jbh28]

I have never understood how people having free will detracts from God's sovereignty.

God wants A
Man wants B

Either God gets what he wants or he doesn't.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God wants A
Man wants B

Either God gets what he wants or he doesn't.

Yes however I believe what RS is saying (detailing) is permitted free will. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[jbh28]

Yes however I believe what RS is saying (detailing) is permitted free will. Correct me if I am wrong.

I was only speaking about why there can be a contradiction.