An articulate well balanced approach. What say you?

[Van]

The us in Ephesians 1:4 refers to the believers being addressed by Paul. And the principle presented is not limited to those who read or heard the original letter, but applies to all born anew believers.

 

[The Archangel]

As you can see, the Calvinists have no answer, so they post strawman arguments.

No answer? Really?! That's good comic relief.

He chose us in Him refers to the corporate election of those Christ would redeem. Anyone who claims the underlying Greek grammar precludes this view is simply wrong.

First, not knowing the first thing about Greek grammar, you really shouldn't reference it at all. Second, you have been claiming that Ephesians 1:4 is saying that Christ was chosen. I have unequivocally demonstrated that what you've been saying is not correct. The saints (we, us, etc.) were chosen.

The "church" wasn't chosen; individuals were chosen. The chosen individuals make up the church. The language of the first 15 verses of chapter one are, in fact, self-inclusive as Paul is writing and including himself.

Now, it would seem you are trying to slither out of your original position that Christ was chosen. If you do indeed abandon that position (at least if you abandon Ephesians 1:4 as a proof text for that position) you will be better off, since even a middle school grammar student will tell you the difference between the direct object (us) and the indirect object (Christ).

1 Peter 2:8 says those that do not believe stumble because they are disobedient to the word. What was appointed. That they would stumble because they are disobedient. Hence unbelief is destined to result in eternal punishment.

Wrong again. "They stumble because they disobey the word." Now, if the verse stopped there you might have something. But, as we all know, the verse doesn't stop there, it adds the phrase "as they were destined to do." Were they destined to stumble? Were they destined to disobey the word? It's actually both. They were destined to stumble and disobey the word. The relative pronoun gives us this--it means the "destined" is referencing the preceding thought. (see Schreiner, 1 Peter; 2 Peter; Jude, in the New American Commentary).

Just read the verse folks.

Returning to verses 9-10 God chose us after we lived without mercy, putting our individual election during our lifetime. Same as James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 1 Cor. 1:26-31.

Again, 1 Peter 2:9-10 says nothing about election in our lifetime. In v. 10 the "received mercy" is, in both occurrences, Aorist passive participles, the Aorist giving a snapshot of past time. If you were correct that this was happening in our lifetime, we would expect at least one of these participles to be Present Active. In fact, we don't have that at all. The Aorist Passive, again, shows a snapshot of the past in which the action was done by someone other than the subject. In other words, the subject(s) were acted upon by an outside force (God, in this case) and that action "receiving mercy" happened in the past, not the present.

You can quote all the verse you want out of context. It still will not change the grammar of the text--and that is "just reading the verse." It take a heck of a lot of gerrymandering the text and doing your sort of gymnastics to explain away what the text is clearly saying.

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

Eph. 1:4 has been beaten to death on here. Now, here's a question I want to ask. When are any of us in Christ???? If we are actually in Christ as some on here purport, then how do you answer this verse??

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Now, if we're in Christ before/from the foundation of the world, then we were never under condemnation, nor even lost. Because Romans 8:1 supports this stance, if you take Eph. 1:4 the way some have purported.

Here is what Jesus says about this:

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

So, if the elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world, they were not lost, and Jesus never had to die for them, because they were already in Christ before the world was made.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Those who are in Christ are not lost, but are saved by the blood of the Lamb. So to be in Christ before the foundation of the world as some purport, then Jesus didn't have to seek and save the elect, because they were already in Christ and are not under condemnation.

 

[quantumfaith]

This discussion of "us" just (IMO) even further serves the support the purpose of the OP, that being that scripture is replete with "tensions" which to each of us is easily resolvable for the most part according to our "chosen" biases. I really like the position of "corporate election" particularly with respect to Romans 9, but I will always leave my options open to new insight and wisdom learned.

 

[thomas15]

i mean when you meet a person face to face with open bibles,and discuss truth...the conversation stays on track..because you are looking at the person and if they start to not understand what you are saying...it can be immeadiatley corrected. less to misunderstand...you hear if they are joking.or serious...etc.

Are you trying to imply that your gift is in keeping the discussion on track?

 

[JesusFan]

No answer? Really?! That's good comic relief.



First, not knowing the first thing about Greek grammar, you really shouldn't reference it at all. Second, you have been claiming that Ephesians 1:4 is saying that Christ was chosen. I have unequivocally demonstrated that what you've been saying is not correct. The saints (we, us, etc.) were chosen.

The "church" wasn't chosen; individuals were chosen. The chosen individuals make up the church. The language of the first 15 verses of chapter one are, in fact, self-inclusive as Paul is writing and including himself.

Now, it would seem you are trying to slither out of your original position that Christ was chosen. If you do indeed abandon that position (at least if you abandon Ephesians 1:4 as a proof text for that position) you will be better off, since even a middle school grammar student will tell you the difference between the direct object (us) and the indirect object (Christ).



Wrong again. "They stumble because they disobey the word." Now, if the verse stopped there you might have something. But, as we all know, the verse doesn't stop there, it adds the phrase "as they were destined to do." Were they destined to stumble? Were they destined to disobey the word? It's actually both. They were destined to stumble and disobey the word. The relative pronoun gives us this--it means the "destined" is referencing the preceding thought. (see Schreiner, 1 Peter; 2 Peter; Jude, in the New American Commentary).



Again, 1 Peter 2:9-10 says nothing about election in our lifetime. In v. 10 the "received mercy" is, in both occurrences, Aorist passive participles, the Aorist giving a snapshot of past time. If you were correct that this was happening in our lifetime, we would expect at least one of these participles to be Present Active. In fact, we don't have that at all. The Aorist Passive, again, shows a snapshot of the past in which the action was done by someone other than the subject. In other words, the subject(s) were acted upon by an outside force (God, in this case) and that action "receiving mercy" happened in the past, not the present.

You can quote all the verse you want out of context. It still will not change the grammar of the text--and that is "just reading the verse." It take a heck of a lot of gerrymandering the text and doing your sort of gymnastics to explain away what the text is clearly saying.

The Archangel

basically, isn't it true that Cals tend to see the elction of God being based upon His Will. plans, purposes, and done on an individual basis in each believer? So its the Will of God electing us ...


While Arms and other noncalls tend to see it being either Jesus being the elected Party by God, or else that God has chosen to elect out a corporate Body of Christ, and God bases us getting into that elected Bidy by our faith in Christ placing us there? Corprate election, and we get ourselves in there based upon accepting jesus by faith?

 

[The Archangel]

Eph. 1:4 has been beaten to death on here. Now, here's a question I want to ask. When are any of us in Christ???? If we are actually in Christ as some on here purport, then how do you answer this verse??

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

With Romans 8:1 you need to look at the preceding passage (since Romans 8:1 begins with "therefore"). Paul is discussing his sinning--how he does, indeed, sin, even as a Christian.

There is not condemnation for those in Christ (e.g. Christians) who, even now, sin. Why? Because Christ has suffered the condemnation for us.

Now, if we're in Christ before/from the foundation of the world, then we were never under condemnation, nor even lost. Because Romans 8:1 supports this stance, if you take Eph. 1:4 the way some have purported.

This isn't so. Look, again, at the context of Romans 8.

So, if the elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world, they were not lost, and Jesus never had to die for them, because they were already in Christ before the world was made.

Very wrong. It is precisely because the elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world that Christ had to die for them.

Christ substituted Himself for those "In Christ" so that while He was on the cross bearing the wrath of God being poured out on Him, it is as if we, the believers, were on the cross bearing the wrath of God. In this way, there is no condemnation for believers--because Christ has borne that condemnation for us.

Now, again, remember Paul's words to the believers in 1 Corinthians 6:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (ESV, emphasis mine)
​

Paul affirms their sinfulness prior to Christ. He never says their sinfulness is or was OK. He affirms the absolute necessity for those "in Christ" to actually respond to the Gospel and show forth the fruit of repentance and faith in their lives.

Those who are in Christ are not lost, but are saved by the blood of the Lamb. So to be in Christ before the foundation of the world as some purport, then Jesus didn't have to seek and save the elect, because they were already in Christ and are not under condemnation.

But that's not what we see in Scripture, is it? We see the mission effort of Acts preaching the Gospel indiscriminately and we see those appointed to eternal life believing. So, those who are "in Christ," at some point, respond to the Gospel.

The "in Christ" part of the equation of salvation is only beneficial because Christ died. Being "in Christ" without His death is absolutely meaningless. There is only salvific force in the term "in Christ" because Christ died (as it was always planned for Him to do).

I really admire how you are trying to put the pieces together. However, I fear that you are taking this verse and that verse without being careful with the context. This taking of many verses without careful regard for context is leading you to make some leaps and jumps that are not proper.

This is why the study of Biblical Theology and Systematic Theology are so vitally important. In Biblical Theology, we do see a tension--referred to as "the already/not yet." For example: Christians are already saved, but not yet saved.

So, we are not saying that those "in Christ" have no condemnation. Properly understood, we are saying the removal of condemnation already took place at the cross (for those who are believers, those who are "in Christ") but the removal of condemnation has not yet taken place for those in Christ--until they respond in repentance and faith. Their response is guaranteed by being "in Christ," but the condemnation is not finally lifted until such time as they actually respond.

There is tension here (as there is throughout the Bible).

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you trying to imply that your gift is in keeping the discussion on track?

Thomas,
Where are you in PA.....we could meet for coffee and discuss the scripture and you can answer your own question.

 

[Iconoclast]

With Romans 8:1 you need to look at the preceding passage (since Romans 8:1 begins with "therefore"). Paul is discussing his sinning--how he does, indeed, sin, even as a Christian.

There is not condemnation for those in Christ (e.g. Christians) who, even now, sin. Why? Because Christ has suffered the condemnation for us.



This isn't so. Look, again, at the context of Romans 8.



Very wrong. It is precisely because the elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world that Christ had to die for them.

Christ substituted Himself for those "In Christ" so that while He was on the cross bearing the wrath of God being poured out on Him, it is as if we, the believers, were on the cross bearing the wrath of God. In this way, there is no condemnation for believers--because Christ has borne that condemnation for us.

Now, again, remember Paul's words to the believers in 1 Corinthians 6:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (ESV, emphasis mine)
​

Paul affirms their sinfulness prior to Christ. He never says their sinfulness is or was OK. He affirms the absolute necessity for those "in Christ" to actually respond to the Gospel and show forth the fruit of repentance and faith in their lives.



But that's not what we see in Scripture, is it? We see the mission effort of Acts preaching the Gospel indiscriminately and we see those appointed to eternal life believing. So, those who are "in Christ," at some point, respond to the Gospel.

The "in Christ" part of the equation of salvation is only beneficial because Christ died. Being "in Christ" without His death is absolutely meaningless. There is only salvific force in the term "in Christ" because Christ died (as it was always planned for Him to do).

I really admire how you are trying to put the pieces together. However, I fear that you are taking this verse and that verse without being careful with the context. This taking of many verses without careful regard for context is leading you to make some leaps and jumps that are not proper.

This is why the study of Biblical Theology and Systematic Theology are so vitally important. In Biblical Theology, we do see a tension--referred to as "the already/not yet." For example: Christians are already saved, but not yet saved.

So, we are not saying that those "in Christ" have no condemnation. Properly understood, we are saying the removal of condemnation already took place at the cross (for those who are believers, those who are "in Christ") but the removal of condemnation has not yet taken place for those in Christ--until they respond in repentance and faith. Their response is guaranteed by being "in Christ," but the condemnation is not finally lifted until such time as they actually respond.

There is tension here (as there is throughout the Bible).

The Archangel

Very clear breakdown of many of us who lacking a knowledge of the original languages can quickly get off track if God given teachers do not offer corrective help.

 

[The Archangel]

basically, isn't it true that Cals tend to see the elction of God being based upon His Will. plans, purposes, and done on an individual basis in each believer? So its the Will of God electing us ...


While Arms and other noncalls tend to see it being either Jesus being the elected Party by God, or else that God has chosen to elect out a corporate Body of Christ, and God bases us getting into that elected Bidy by our faith in Christ placing us there? Corprate election, and we get ourselves in there based upon accepting jesus by faith?

It would seem to me that this is generally true.

But, again, we do see both an individual election and a corporate election.

It is particularly interesting that God elects Israel (not even giving opportunity for, say, the Egyptians or Philistines to be chosen).

However, in that nation, He keeps a "faithful remnant." We see this in 1 Kings 19 where it is written:

[18] Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (1 Kings 19:18 ESV)
​

In this passage God is talking to Elijah (who has just defeated the prophets of Baal at Mt. Carmel). Elijah thinks he's the last Yahweh worshiper left. God assures him that is, most certainly, not the case. The use of the Hiphil form of "leave" (or better: Cause to remain) shows that God, though He has chosen the entire Nation of Israel, has chosen individuals within that group as well.

But, when we get to the New Testament, it would seem that God's election is focused more on the individual, but not to the exclusion of the group. The New Testament would actively affirm that the Universal Church (as a group) is made up of individuals and it would affirm that individuals make up the Universal Church.

In the New Testament, we see the evangelization of individuals and those individuals are "brought into" the church. But, it could also be said that the Church (made up of individual believers) is the group that is "in Christ" and Christ died for His bride (the Church) and in doing so He assured that the individuals would come to faith in Himself.

There is tension, but most people throw out one side to escape the tension, rather than resolve it biblically.

The Archangel

 

[thomas15]

Thomas,
Where are you in PA.....we could meet for coffee and discuss the scripture and you can answer your own question.

I'm in Carbon County, work FT in Phillipsburg, NJ and PT in Allentown. Where are you?

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm in Carbon County, work FT in Phillipsburg, NJ and PT in Allentown. Where are you?

Live on Long Island, drive cross country....could meet at the truck stops off exit 7 in Phillipsburg ,,,,or near Allentown sometime....I am south of
Cleveland now....near Webdog, will be in Toledo, tommorow night...
Thomas....I speak faster than I type,,,,I think we could look at many scriptures that could help to understand these issues...
Let me know what time frame would work for you and will see if God provides the opportunity.

 

[thomas15]

Live on Long Island, drive cross country....could meet at the truck stops off exit 7 in Phillipsburg ,,,,or near Allentown sometime....I am south of
Cleveland now....near Webdog, will be in Toledo, tommorow night...
Thomas....I speak faster than I type,,,,I think we could look at many scriptures that could help to understand these issues...
Let me know what time frame would work for you and will see if God provides the opportunity.

Let me know when you are in the Rt 78/22 corridor and if I'm available this little old 140 Lb wippersnapper will gladly shread the meat right off yer bones :tongue3:

I guess this mean I will have to pick up the tab.

 

[Van]

Folks, Calvinism has been shown to be unbiblical. Their view of Ephesians 1:4 reads "individually" into the text when "corporately" fits the wording. Chosen in Him does not mean chosen and placed in Him.

It has been shown that anyone who is actually in Christ is not condemned, but every born anew believer was condemned as a child of wrath before they were spiritually placed in Christ. Therefore the Calvinist view of individual election for salvation before the foundation of the world is shown yet again to be false.

 

[Van]

Here are the words Archangel has put into my mouth: Second, you have been claiming that Ephesians 1:4 is saying that Christ was chosen. But did I say that? Of course not. Calvinism is defended by misrepresenting the views of others because it cannot be defended on its merits. I said Christ was chosen as Redeemer before the foundation of the world. I base this on the fact He was foreknown as the Lamb before the foundation of the world. Now when He was chosen as Redeemer, then corporately all those He would redeem were also chosen. Hence, Ephesians 1:4 reads He chose us in Him. Now who is being addressed as being chosen? Why us!!!! Pay no attention to Archangel, he simply misrepresents others.

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=Van;1727711]Folks, Calvinism has been shown to be unbiblical. Their view of Ephesians 1:4 reads "individually" into the text when "corporately" fits the wording. Chosen in Him does not mean chosen and placed in Him.

problem with that view is the context/grammer/ and word structuring points to individual election!

It has been shown that anyone who is actually in Christ is not condemned, but every born anew believer was condemned as a child of wrath before they were spiritually placed in Christ. Therefore the Calvinist view of individual election for salvation before the foundation of the world is shown yet again to be false.

[/QUOTE]


God chose us in the beloved before the foundation of the World is from God Himself in the Bible!

God is outside Time, as he has already written down all of those that He has elected out to be written down in lambs Book of Life from Eternity Past...

So far, only think proven is that try as you do, still have NOT proven the DoG as being non bibilical, as you are refusing to heed sound hermeneutics and use of the Greek by Apostles in the NT!

 

[Van]

Next we have this from the misinformation king, the church was not chosen. What he was trying to say may have been the church was not chosen corporately. But will this falsehood be supported with scripture? Nope.

But how about the church being chosen corporately. Is there scripture to support that assertion? Yes. Was Christ chosen to be be God's Redeemer? Yes. That individual election resulted in the corporate election of all who would be redeemed. Thus He chose us in Him - a corporate election.

But could that not have been an individual election? No for many reasons. We have shown individual election occurs during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy, being condemned, and after we have faith in the truth. Next lets look at Romans 8:33. No charge can be brought against God's elect. Therefore it is a logical impossibility to be individually elect and a child of wrath. QED yet again. Folks start counting the problems with individual election before the foundation of the world.

Name written not before but from the foundation. Revelation 13:8, 17:8
Election of those rich in faith, keeping the promise to those who love God. James 2:5
Election through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
No charge can be brought against the Elect. Romans 8:33

 

[The Archangel]

Here are the words Archangel has put into my mouth: Second, you have been claiming that Ephesians 1:4 is saying that Christ was chosen. But did I say that? Of course not. Calvinism is defended by misrepresenting the views of others because it cannot be defended on its merits. I said Christ was chosen as Redeemer before the foundation of the world. I base this on the fact He was foreknown as the Lamb before the foundation of the world. Now when He was chosen as Redeemer, then corporately all those He would redeem were also chosen. Hence, Ephesians 1:4 reads He chose us in Him. Now who is being addressed as being chosen? Why us!!!! Pay no attention to Archangel, he simply misrepresents others.

Next we have this from the misinformation king, the church was not chosen. What he was trying to say may have been the church was not chosen corporately. But will this falsehood be supported with scripture? Nope.

But how about the church being chosen corporately. Is there scripture to support that assertion? Yes. Was Christ chosen to be be God's Redeemer? Yes. That individual election resulted in the corporate election of all who would be redeemed. Thus He chose us in Him - a corporate election.

But could that not have been an individual election? No for many reasons. We have shown individual election occurs during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy, being condemned, and after we have faith in the truth. Next lets look at Romans 8:33. No charge can be brought against God's elect. Therefore it is a logical impossibility to be individually elect and a child of wrath. QED yet again. Folks start counting the problems with individual election before the foundation of the world.

Name written not before but from the foundation. Revelation 13:8, 17:8
Election of those rich in faith, keeping the promise to those who love God. James 2:5
Election through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
No charge can be brought against the Elect. Romans 8:33

Ah...

I have been so missing my year in 3rd Grade. Thank you, so much, for employing the "liar-liar-pants-on-fire" defense.

Rather than engage the text, you run to the ad hominems while running away from the text. You, of course, are free to run from the text, but then don't call your drivel posted here "biblical."

Your interpretations of scripture have been proven wrong time and time again (and not just by me). Your interpretations are a perfect and prime example of what happens when your presuppositions drive your reading of the text.

Sad, indeed.

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

Folks, Calvinism has been shown to be unbiblical. Their view of Ephesians 1:4 reads "individually" into the text when "corporately" fits the wording. Chosen in Him does not mean chosen and placed in Him.

It has been shown that anyone who is actually in Christ is not condemned, but every born anew believer was condemned as a child of wrath before they were spiritually placed in Christ. Therefore the Calvinist view of individual election for salvation before the foundation of the world is shown yet again to be false.

You have been shown to be unbiblical,Instead of receiving instruction ...you hold on to your error. fiddlesticks:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Winman]

The Calvinist position is easily proved false by Rom 16:7.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

No one is "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. You are not "in Christ" until you believe.

Paul shows this in Rom 16:7 when he speaks of Andronicus and Junia whom he says were "in Christ BEFORE ME".