An articulate well balanced approach. What say you?

Question....

did God "know' that saul would become the Apostle paul before he was born unto this earth?

was paul already part of the Body of Christ in mind of God before paul experienced being "born again?"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE

 

Sure, I believe God in his foreknowledge knows all who will believe.

That does not negate the fact that Paul said Andronicus and Junia were in Christ BEFORE him.

This shows that no one is in Christ until he believes and those who teach a person is in Christ before the foundation of the world are in error.

 

Now note the effort of the Calvinists, having failed to rebut any of the five, yes five lines of evidence against individual election for salvation before the foundation of the world, they try to change the subject to Omniscience. This is merely an attempt to derail the thread.

He chose us in Him refers to the corporate election of everyone who will be redeemed by the Chosen Redeemer. When we are individually chosen and placed spiritually in Christ, we receive blessings from heaven, the first being we were chosen corporately before the foundation of the world. God's love toward us is from everlasting.

 

This is a typical Calvinist denial of the evidence without actually addressing the evidence.

God did chose us corporately before the foundation of the world, as those the Redeemer would redeem. Thus everyone individually chosen and placed in Christ, the beloved was chosen corporately before the foundation of the world. This view is consistent with the context, the Greek word meanings and with the Greek grammar.

Next, the reason is given for God writing down the names from rather than before the foundation is God is outside of time. This invents what is not in scripture and replaces what is in scripture. That is Calvinism 101.

These four DoG assertions, total spiritual ability of all mankind, unconditional individual election before the foundation of the world, limited reconciliation, and irresistible grace have all been shown to be unbiblical.

This thread has shown unconditional individual election before the foundation of the world is unbiblical. It is supported by a misunderstanding of Ephesians 1:4. And it is shown to be not valid by more than a dozen verses.

 

Jesusfan wrote (in another thread)
"Bottom line" "bad news" is that God considers ALL of us as being "IN Adam" all received the same punishment for sinning against God, in that we ALl are born into Sin,"

So if Jesusfan is correct here and we are in Adam, then we are not elect and in Christ at conception. So Jesusfan has added to the list of lines of evidence against the Calvinists view of Ephesians 1:4. LOL

 

"balderdash & Horse feathers" :tongue3::laugh:

 

fiddlesticks, false teaching, and another boondoggle:laugh:

 

:laugh: :thumbsup:

...not to mention the flim-flam and blarney!!!!

 

Look Brother, I just showed you that no one is in Christ prior to salvation, correct? Then how can the elect be in Christ before the foundation of the world, and ever be lost at any time, because according to Eph. 1:4, they were in Christ before they were ever born. Romans 8:1 says there is therefore no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, so the elect are in Christ Jesus before they were ever born. I just showed you the inconsistency of the position y'all hold in regards to the elect.

The elect are placed in Christ at the point of salvation, and not before. So then how are the elect in Christ Jesus before the foundation of this world, and yet in need of saving?

 

If y'all don't quit speaking in tongues, I am going to report y'all to the mods.....too much pentecostalism going on in here for my tatse.....:laugh:

That goes for Brothers Iconoclast, Quantumfaith, and Preacher4Truth!!!

I have my eyes on you guys.......:

 

No, friend, you didn't make your case. As I pointed out, Romans 8:1 is not referring to what you say it is referring to. Remember, the "therefore" in Romans 8:1 is referring to what was written before, which it seems you have ignored.

So, your case is not proven--especially because you want to take a verse (not saying what you want it to say, Romans 8:1) and have that verse "disprove" what Ephesians 1:4 says.

How can the elect be in Christ before the foundation of the world? Because that's what Ephesians 1:4 actually says.

As for how the elect can be lost? Well, again, you have the tension between the already and the not yet. The elect are, in one sense, already saved even before they're born, but in another sense they are not saved until they trust Christ. There is a tension, yes, but not a contradiction as you are trying to invent.

Again, you haven't shown an inconsistency because you are taking Romans 8:1 out of its context and trying to interpret Ephesians 1:4 in light of Romans 8:1 when Paul in no way intends Romans 8:1 to say what you are saying it says.

Context is, in fact, king.

No. Ephesians clearly says those believing in Christ (the "us" in the passage) are chosen before the foundation of the world.

Election does not in and of itself save. Election ensures salvation at some point. Again, the already-not-yet tension. At some point, the elect must (and will) come to Christ--God sees to that.

Perhaps the problem in comprehension that you are struggling with is that most Calvinists (such as myself) are not hyper-Calvinists (the hyper-Calvinists claiming that the elect will be saved even apart from the Gospel).

So, my encouragement to you, is this: Seek to understand our position, even going so far as to articulate our position to us and then engage the position.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Hmmm....

Well, why don't you parse and outline the passage in Greek? Make your case. Explain the Greek to us.

You've made the assertion that the Greek supports your position. Back up your claim. Explain the Greek.

Oh, and, if you post sources (rather than arguing using your own chops), footnote them, otherwise it's plagiarism.

So, I challenge you: exegete Ephesians 1:4 for us. In fact, why don't you exegete Ephesians 1:3-14.

We'll be waiting.

The Archangel

 

First of all, thanks for the civil conversation!! I have always found you to be gracious to me, and for that, again, I am thankful. :thumbs::love2:

Now, in Ephesians, you find that Paul is writing to the church at Ephesus, correct? The reason why I am stating the obvious is to prove a point. Ephesus was a gentile country, and before Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition, the Jews were God's chosen(elected) people. Sure, you can find where Ruth and Rahab were adopted into the Jewish people by faith, but they also had to go along with the Jewish traditions. Now that Jesus died on the cross, but rather, be risen, that we all, both Jew and Gentile, have access to the Father. This is what Paul is meaning when you see pronouns used such as us and we, stating both Jews and Gentiles.

Now that Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God in heaven, the call is going out to both the Jews and Gentiles. John 12:32 Jesus stated this, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me". Prior to this, Jesus came to His own first, and after they rejected Him, you see where He spoke with Gentile people such as the Syrophenician(sp?) woman, the Samiritan woman at the well in John chapter 4 etc.

Election starts and ends with Jesus. If Jesus hadn't done His part dying on the cross, none of us would be saved. God chose(elected) His Son to die for our sins. I am 99.9999999999999999% sure you will not agree with me, but we do agree on this, we both love the Lord, and thank Him for what He did for us!! Amen???

Have a blessed rest of the week, Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

One side says...

And the rebuttal:

I will put the verses here for us to read again:

I don't think it is necessary to assert that those chosen were in fact "In Christ" before the foundation of the world, merely that they were chosen to be in Christ at some point in the future. So I would agree that I was not in Christ at the foundation of the world, but that God chose me to be in Christ, and because of that He sent Christ to take my sin on the cross, then sent people to teach me the gospel and opened my heart to receive it. Now I am in Christ.

I think it is possible to uphold individual election without saying that we were "in Christ" from the foundation of the world.

-andy

 

What a sad joke that remark was. Are you foisting your particular tendencies onto others? I find that you misrepresent a great deal here and on the Bible Translation forum.(Especially the latter where there is no reasoning with you. You consistently misrepresent what I have said.)

Archangel demonstrates by his posts on the BB that he is a balanced and godly individual. He asks repeatedly if he has fairly represented what others have said and desires to clarify as uch as possible. I find his posts very edifying as he seeks to be biblical and his explanations are very helpful to me.

I am a Calvinist.Perhaps you'll say that is why I support AA. However,I think many non-Cals here would agree that your charges do not stick Van.

 

Amen. IMO, we are very fortunate to have Archangel's participation here on the BB.

 

Yea, I think you nailed it.

Election is not potential. It is actual. The Bible everywhere affirms this. To say otherwise is to twist the truth.

They tend to have a problem with this potential vs actual business.

They do not believe that what Christ did at Calvary was ACTUAL atonement. They believe it is POTENTIAL atonement.

I think this is dangerous.

 

How is Christ the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?