An articulate well balanced approach. What say you?

[Van]

Here is what I posted previously: "He chose us in Him" refers to the corporate election of everyone who will be redeemed by the Chosen Redeemer. When we are individually chosen and placed spiritually in Christ, we receive blessings from heaven, the first being we were chosen corporately before the foundation of the world. God's love toward us is from everlasting.

Absolutely noting in the Greek word meanings or grammar suggests this view is not correct. Anyone who claims otherwise is either ignorant of the Greek or is willing to misrepresent it. QED

 

[Van]

"Propenents of this view[Ephesians 1:4 pre-temporal corporate election] haved included Robert Shank, Ben Witherington, William Klein, Roger T.Forster, Paul Marston, Joseph Dongell, Jerry Walls, and Clark Pinnock." Archangel will simply say all these people are wrong and he and the Calvinists hold the correct view. This is simply a "my daddy is bigger than your daddy argument."

I certainly do not agree with much of what these have written, but it is preposterious to claim the Greek precludes the view. Only someone who either does not understand Greek or is willing to misrepresent it" would make such a claim. A valid claim would be say this view or that view is more likely because of such and such lines of evidence, but that is not what Archangel has posted.

 

[JesusFan]

I guess it's easy to say you don't need to do that which you cannot do.

Oh...and I think that's pretty much the text-book definition of a "cop out."



Later, ironically, you say I have "an inability to even read...what [you] have written."

Let's look at the sentence in #2 above. You say the Greek supports your position and the Greek demonstrates that I have no knowledge of Greek. How can the Greek demonstrate an ability or inability on my part. The Greek is an inanimate noun (ie. not a person) and is, therefore, unable to demonstrate anything.

Now, had you said you had demonstrated that I have no knowledge of Greek, that would be proper English. Of course, if you wanted to demonstrate how I've mishandled the text, you'd have to be able to handle the text yourself--something we know you're incapable of.

So, how can you say the Greek supports your position when you know no Greek? If you're following a commentary, then you can say "so-an-so, in his or her commentary, says..." But, you have no expertise or acumen in the Greek and, therefore, you have no standing to offer any commentary on my correctness or incorrectness.



I know the "common usage" rule quite well. And, I'm not even really talking about that. Plagiarism is different (yet still related) from the copyright laws. Plagiarizing is a crime against both the original author and the reader (while copyright infringement is mostly a crime against the original author who holds intellectual property rights over his or her own work).

Common usage allows the reprinting of copyrighted works especially in, say, research papers, other scholarly works, books, etc. But, one is still not allowed to quote, at length or otherwise, the work(s) of someone else without proper citation.

You keep on saying that commentaries support your position. Post them and prove it. And, cite the work so that the rest of us can check the veracity of your reference.



I have read what you have written, but what you've written is dead wrong. You may have, indeed, presented your "commentary" or "interpretation" of Ephesians 1:4 but your commentary is so far afield of what the verse and the passage actually say, you might as well be giving commentary or interpretation on the merits of studying the floristics of the Serengeti.



The verse says this: He chose us before the foundation of the world. There is no way around that in either Greek or English, both of which have apparently fallen prey to your errant presupposition.

The Archangel

What is amusing to me, and very ironic, is that it would appear tht the main problem Van has with this doctrine of election from the biblical perspectian in Ephesians is NOT based upon what the Apostle actually wrote down as the Greek text, nor proper interpretation on the English version of his choice (KJV), but that he is doing EXACT SAME thing here that he says that Cals do ...

Reading back into it his own theological bias, sraining it through his own religious "grid lock!"

 

[The Archangel]

Part 1:

Hi Archangel, Paul says we have nothing we have not received. You view is unbiblical.

And…what, pray tell, does this have to do with anything we are discussing?????

All you do is disparage, sir. I did not claim to know Greek, so Archangel simply puts words in my mouth, and then you, just another of the gang, agree with him. It is an old play, I have posted on it before, and it is all you have. Zero content, only disparagement of individuals with the goal of derailing the thread. So repetitive.

To disparage someone implies a belittling for no reason. This is not what is going on here. You set yourself up a Pariah and a Martyr when any “disparagement” is actually correction—something you do, in fact, need.

You most certainly do claim (through implication) to know Greek. Time and again this is what you say:

(2) The Greek supports my position and demonstrates you have no knowledge of Greek or you are willing to misrepresent.

If you are claiming the Greek supports your position, then, the implication is, you have the acumen to determine whether the Greek does, in fact, support your position or not. As it is…since you claim to know no Greek and you are claiming to be able to tell whether or not the Greek does or does not support your position, you are simply being double minded, disingenuous, intentionally misleading, and you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Next Archangel implies, but does not say that the Greek rules out the idea that the election before creation was corporate. However, the Greek allows that understanding.
What actual scholars say is this or that is more likely but none rule out either one. So again Archangel has demonstrated either a lack of knowledge of Greek or a willingness to misrepresent it.

If you would have actually read my posts earlier in this thread you might have seen this:

It would seem to me that this is generally true.

But, again, we do see both an individual election and a corporate election.

It is particularly interesting that God elects Israel (not even giving opportunity for, say, the Egyptians or Philistines to be chosen).

However, in that nation, He keeps a "faithful remnant." We see this in 1 Kings 19 where it is written:

[18] Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (1 Kings 19:18 ESV)

In this passage God is talking to Elijah (who has just defeated the prophets of Baal at Mt. Carmel). Elijah thinks he's the last Yahweh worshiper left. God assures him that is, most certainly, not the case. The use of the Hiphil form of "leave" (or better: Cause to remain) shows that God, though He has chosen the entire Nation of Israel, has chosen individuals within that group as well.

But, when we get to the New Testament, it would seem that God's election is focused more on the individual, but not to the exclusion of the group. The New Testament would actively affirm that the Universal Church (as a group) is made up of individuals and it would affirm that individuals make up the Universal Church.

In the New Testament, we see the evangelization of individuals and those individuals are "brought into" the church. But, it could also be said that the Church (made up of individual believers) is the group that is "in Christ" and Christ died for His bride (the Church) and in doing so He assured that the individuals would come to faith in Himself.

There is tension, but most people throw out one side to escape the tension, rather than resolve it biblically.

The Archangel

So, as you can see—and as it is plain for everyone else to see—your charge is absolutely and unequivocally false.

 

[The Archangel]

Part 2

When Calvinists do not answer simple questions with a yes or a no, now that is a cop out.
I explained Ephesians 1:4 in English and said the Greek grammar allows that understanding.

That fact you could not understand how Greek rightly understood would demonstrate that someone who wrongly presents it does not understand. This again shows Archangle does not understand Greek or is willing to misrepresent it. Notice how he misrepresented my remark by editing it. Does it all the time.

Again, you have demonstrated nothing of how the Greek grammar does anything. I suspect this is due to your own admission of not knowing Greek.

And, for the record, I have never misrepresented you nor edited a remark. If you will notice, every reply I make—even when I do truncate the original posting for the sake of space (especially when I am not responding point-by-point)—is made with the link to the original.

So, again, a baseless, intentionally false charge on your part.

Last response folks, here is what the misrepresentation king posted:
The verse says this: He chose us before the foundation of the world. There is no way around that in either Greek or English, both of which have apparently fallen prey to your errant presupposition.

Do you note that he edited out "in Him" from the text. Pay no attention to this spirit, what he says does not reflect God's word.

Yes, I omitted “in Him” because—as the indirect object—it was superfluous to the argument at hand—the argument being, all along, that Ephesians 1:4 does not and cannot be taken to mean that God chose Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now, I do believe (and you see this in other passages) that God did, indeed, choose Christ. However, you are wanting to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ because you believe in this nonsense idea that election occurs in our own lifetime when Ephesians 1:4 says God’s choice happened “before the foundation of the world.” And, I might add, that election of “us” before the foundation of the world is true whether the “us” is individual and not corporate or corporate and not individual.

Either way, you will never be right to appeal to this passage to support your nonsensical idea.

Next, the misrepresentation king asks me to prove I am right. LOL Prove I am wrong. What intellectual ignorance. As for common usage, I can put sentences and phrases in quotes and address them as in a critique. That is not stealing ideas from others and claiming them for oneself. Almost all of the Calvinist arguments presented as original with the poster are simply restatements of other arguments. That is why they offer anti-Arminian arguments to address my non-Arminian views. A dead give-a-way.

Prove you’re wrong? I’ve done that at every turn.

Calvinists do present arguments (as Arminians do) based on our readings. But, I’m not talking about that—and, I suspect you know that.

No, you repeatedly make claims that “the Greek supports [your] position.” Since you know no Greek (again, by your own admission) how do you know the Greek supports your position?

Only two possibilities exist: 1.) You have read someone’s writings that you have adopted for your own (though probably not verbatim) and you are relying on them for all your Greek information. Or 2.) You are simply making a claim for which you have no substantiation.

So, when we ask you to post your source (again, because you can’t argue the Greek yourself), we want to know who the crack-pot is who is saying things like the middle voice in Ephesians 1:4 means that God chose Himself.

The onus is on you to prove your case.

Here is what I posted previously: "He chose us in Him" refers to the corporate election of everyone who will be redeemed by the Chosen Redeemer. When we are individually chosen and placed spiritually in Christ, we receive blessings from heaven, the first being we were chosen corporately before the foundation of the world. God's love toward us is from everlasting.

Absolutely noting in the Greek word meanings or grammar suggests this view is not correct. Anyone who claims otherwise is either ignorant of the Greek or is willing to misrepresent it. QED

This is a falsehood. Here, for your information, is what you posted:

Ephesians 1:4 is referring to Christ being chosen as Redeemer and all those He would redeem being chosen corporately. Please address the position if you can grasp it. (emphasis added)

It is somewhat surprising to see so many posts talking past one another. He chose us, refers to born again believers, who had been elected in the past. He chose us in Him. This refers to God choosing the Word to be His lamb before the foundation of the world. (emphasis added)

Lots of commentaries agree with my view of the grammar. That is where I got my view of the grammar. Lets take "he chose" in the middle voice, rather than the active voice.
That means the result of God choosing Himself, Christ to be the Redeemer, He chose us in Him. The underlying action is taken on or for Himself. Many commentaries support this view. (emphasis added)

What you appear unable to grasp is that Ephesians 1:4 does not refer to God choosing Christ and it cannot refer to God choosing Christ.

And, by the way, do you even know what QED means?

"Propenents of this view[Ephesians 1:4 pre-temporal corporate election] haved included Robert Shank, Ben Witherington, William Klein, Roger T.Forster, Paul Marston, Joseph Dongell, Jerry Walls, and Clark Pinnock." Archangel will simply say all these people are wrong and he and the Calvinists hold the correct view. This is simply a "my daddy is bigger than your daddy argument."

I certainly do not agree with much of what these have written, but it is preposterious to claim the Greek precludes the view. Only someone who either does not understand Greek or is willing to misrepresent it" would make such a claim. A valid claim would be say this view or that view is more likely because of such and such lines of evidence, but that is not what Archangel has posted.

Again, you are changing the issue. If you have read the previous posts, you will know that the issue is not corporate vs. individual election. The issue is that you want to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ, and not individuals or the Church.

You may call me whatever name or ascribe to me whatever dubious things float your boat. However, in the end, as all I’m sure can see, you are only further indicting yourself.

Perhaps the words of Mark Twain could be of help to you: “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

What is amusing to me, and very ironic, is that it would appear tht the main problem Van has with this doctrine of election from the biblical perspectian in Ephesians is NOT based upon what the Apostle actually wrote down as the Greek text, nor proper interpretation on the English version of his choice (KJV), but that he is doing EXACT SAME thing here that he says that Cals do ...

Reading back into it his own theological bias, sraining it through his own religious "grid lock!"

You're right. This is a good observation. The situation is as tragic as it is ironic.

I think, though, there might be some deeper issues, like transference, that cause him to lash-out at others for his own shortcomings.

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

All you do is disparage, sir. I did not claim to know Greek, so Archangel simply puts words in my mouth, and then you, just another of the gang, agree with him. It is an old play, I have posted on it before, and it is all you have. Zero content, only disparagement of individuals with the goal of derailing the thread. So repetitive.

Van,

All you do is disparage, sir.

Van let me say it this way.......you constantly disparage yourself. What choice do you leave anyone???
Archangel tries very patiently to read through your posistion, see the error,and offer correction. He goes over your post...point by point....an examination of your post reveals a handful of truth...mixed with a pile of error:thumbs:
He patiently explains the error....not in a personal attack...but calmly in a gramatical, well thought out answer ,he offers you the correct words,and verbs, and tenses, of the verse.

When that happens......biblically you are placed in the cross hairs of several verses, like this;
How you react determines which side of the verse you are on! So far, you are not on the positive portion of the verse.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction

Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

Many have offered you correction...you not only do not take the correction, but remain steadfast in your error,digging in deeper...
This is what a false teacher does. You are one of many who because they resist God's absolute sovereign control over fallen mankind...resist the scriptures.......many have asked you to consider your ways.

Van seriously do you expect we are going to thank you for posting error over and over.....how can we speak well of this?

I suppose we could say....well Van at least you are consistent in this error?

Not everyone agrees on everything here as that is the nature of things, but you are going out of your way to constantly attack calvinistic persons here.

We sometimes react to this folly.....then you wince and seem surprised?

5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Why not take some time and re-read your posts,and see if it is not so.

 

[JesusFan]

Part 2



Again, you have demonstrated nothing of how the Greek grammar does anything. I suspect this is due to your own admission of not knowing Greek.

And, for the record, I have never misrepresented you nor edited a remark. If you will notice, every reply I make—even when I do truncate the original posting for the sake of space (especially when I am not responding point-by-point)—is made with the link to the original.

So, again, a baseless, intentionally false charge on your part.



Yes, I omitted “in Him” because—as the indirect object—it was superfluous to the argument at hand—the argument being, all along, that Ephesians 1:4 does not and cannot be taken to mean that God chose Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now, I do believe (and you see this in other passages) that God did, indeed, choose Christ. However, you are wanting to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ because you believe in this nonsense idea that election occurs in our own lifetime when Ephesians 1:4 says God’s choice happened “before the foundation of the world.” And, I might add, that election of “us” before the foundation of the world is true whether the “us” is individual and not corporate or corporate and not individual.

Either way, you will never be right to appeal to this passage to support your nonsensical idea.



Prove you’re wrong? I’ve done that at every turn.

Calvinists do present arguments (as Arminians do) based on our readings. But, I’m not talking about that—and, I suspect you know that.

No, you repeatedly make claims that “the Greek supports [your] position.” Since you know no Greek (again, by your own admission) how do you know the Greek supports your position?

Only two possibilities exist: 1.) You have read someone’s writings that you have adopted for your own (though probably not verbatim) and you are relying on them for all your Greek information. Or 2.) You are simply making a claim for which you have no substantiation.

So, when we ask you to post your source (again, because you can’t argue the Greek yourself), we want to know who the crack-pot is who is saying things like the middle voice in Ephesians 1:4 means that God chose Himself.

The onus is on you to prove your case.



This is a falsehood. Here, for your information, is what you posted:

​

What you appear unable to grasp is that Ephesians 1:4 does not refer to God choosing Christ and it cannot refer to God choosing Christ.

And, by the way, do you even know what QED means?



Again, you are changing the issue. If you have read the previous posts, you will know that the issue is not corporate vs. individual election. The issue is that you want to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ, and not individuals or the Church.

You may call me whatever name or ascribe to me whatever dubious things float your boat. However, in the end, as all I’m sure can see, you are only further indicting yourself.

Perhaps the words of Mark Twain could be of help to you: “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

The Archangel

Wouldn't it be proper, in a "simplestic" sense, to state that the Apostle was tring to say to us that God Himself chose to select out from among humanity a peculiar people. seperated unto Himself by a direct act of His will, saved persons to be found "in Christ", and that was done from the perspective of eternity past?

 

[Van]

So, as you can see—and as it is plain for everyone else to see—your charge is absolutely and unequivocally false.

With the above quote, Archangel tried to say the Pre-temporal corporate election in Ephesians 1:4 is a possibility. But he did not say that. He spoke of corporate election in the OT and individual election in the NT. Apples and Oranges so yet another example of misrepresentation.

 

[Van]

Next we have truncating a post as not editing the post. Fiddlesticks. He left out "in Him" probably not to save space but to misrepresent scripture.

 

[Van]

Next we have Archangel posting three quotes of mine which demonstrate I did not say Ephesians 1:4 refers only to Christ being chosen, but to all those in Christ being chosen corporately before the foundation of the world. Christ was chosen as Redeemer, and as a consequence, all those the Redeemer would redeem were chosen corporately. This is not rocket science. But you do need to be able to read.

 

[Van]

QED, thus it is proved.

 

[Van]

Here is a complete falsehood, yet again from Archangel,

Again, you are changing the issue. If you have read the previous posts, you will know that the issue is not corporate vs. individual election. The issue is that you want to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ, and not individuals or the Church.

Folks, I have said Ephesians 1:4 refers to God choosing for Himself the redeemed when Christ was chosen to be the Redeemer. Ephesians 1:4 does not address God's choice of Christ, but does address that we were chosen corporately when He was chosen. This is not rocket science.

 

[Van]

Perhaps the words of Mark Twain could be of help to you: “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

Would it be too much to hope for that the Calvinists who offer misrepresentation and post an avalanche of disparagement would heed the riverboat author.

They simply address the qualifications and character of all those who point out that Calvinism is a canard.

BTW, I had thought that line was from a Charlie Chan movie. Maybe they stole it from Proverbs 17:28.

 

[Van]

Is the corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 conditional or unconditional? Nobody had been created, only God in three Persons existed. Now Calvinists will say God had knowledge in His mind of the whole exhaustive history of all creation before He spoke it into being. No verse will be forthcoming for this fiction, except the old standby's "all things are possible with God, and God is all knowing.

Thus when God established His redemption plan, Christ would redeem a chosen people, He chose Christ and therefore corporately chose those Christ would redeem. Now did this plan of redemption have a way for God to put chosen individuals into Christ? Yes.
We are in Christ by God's doing, by the work of Holy Spirit. He places us, baptizes us, into the body of Christ. That is our individual election. And that election is through God's acceptance of our faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is the corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 conditional or unconditional? Nobody had been created, only God in three Persons existed. Now Calvinists will say God had knowledge in His mind of the whole exhaustive history of all creation before He spoke it into being. No verse will be forthcoming for this fiction, except the old standby's "all things are possible with God, and God is all knowing.

Thus when God established His redemption plan, Christ would redeem a chosen people, He chose Christ and therefore corporately chose those Christ would redeem. Now did this plan of redemption have a way for God to put chosen individuals into Christ? Yes.
We are in Christ by God's doing, by the work of Holy Spirit. He places us, baptizes us, into the body of Christ. That is our individual election. And that election is through God's acceptance of our faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Van,
You are miss representing Archangel and are starting to go into talebearing.
That is a problem...but now your are posting error by calling God's omniscience "fiction".....it figures

Now Calvinists will say God had knowledge in His mind of the whole exhaustive history of all creation before He spoke it into being. No verse will be forthcoming for this fiction

I believe almost everyone who reads the bible will see your error being exposed here. Then you go back to your own invention on 1thess 2..this is pathetic.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is a complete falsehood, yet again from Archangel,

Again, you are changing the issue. If you have read the previous posts, you will know that the issue is not corporate vs. individual election. The issue is that you want to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ, and not individuals or the Church.

Folks, I have said Ephesians 1:4 refers to God choosing for Himself the redeemed when Christ was chosen to be the Redeemer. Ephesians 1:4 does not address God's choice of Christ, but does address that we were chosen corporately when He was chosen. This is not rocket science.

You have posted error non stop.....here are others who post what Archangel posted....thank you very much:thumbs:


He hath chosen us - The word "us" here shows that the apostle had reference to individuals, and not to communities. It includes Paul himself as one of the "chosen," and those whom he addressed - the mingled Gentile and Jewish converts in Ephesus. That it must refer to individuals is clear. Of no "community" as such can it be said that it was" chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy." It is not true of the Gentile world as such, nor of anyone of the nations making up the Gentile world. The word rendered here "hath chosen" - ἐξελέξατο exelexato - is from a word meaning "to lay out together," (Passow,) to choose out, to select. It has the idea of making a choice or selection among different objects or things. It is applied to things, as in Luke 10:42, Mary "hath chosen that good part;" - she has made a choice, or selection of it, or has shown a "preference" for it. 1 Corinthians 1:27, "God hath chosen the foolish things of the world;" he has preferred to make use of them among all the conceivable things which might have been employed" to confound the wise;" compare Acts 1:2, Acts 1:24; Acts 6:5; Acts 15:22, Acts 15:25.

nor is this choice of persons to an office, for all that are here intended were not apostles, or pastors, or deacons: nor can it design the effectual calling, or the call of persons in time by efficacious grace; because this was before the foundation of the world, as follows: but it intends an eternal election of particular persons to everlasting life and salvation;

 

[The Archangel]

Wouldn't it be proper, in a "simplistic" sense, to state that the Apostle was trying to say to us that God Himself chose to select out from among humanity a peculiar people. separated unto Himself by a direct act of His will, saved persons to be found "in Christ", and that was done from the perspective of eternity past?

Yes, JesusFan, I think you are correct. I think your summary here is very clear, concise, and helpful.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Van]

Hi Iconiclast, why put words in my mouth, I never said inherant omniscience is a fiction.
Why can not any Calvinist stick with the truth. Why must they misrepresent what I say. Because four of the DoG are false and they cannot be defended scripturally. So they lob misrepresentations and ad hominens. Go figure. And note, no verse was forthcoming, only an assertion that because many believe God knew everything before He degreed anything, it makes the belief valid. So yet another logical fallacy. One after the other folks, one after the other. QED

 

[Van]

He is a typical Calvinist assertion:

'Wouldn't it be proper, in a "simplistic" sense, to state that the Apostle was trying to say to us that God Himself chose to select out from among humanity a peculiar people. separated unto Himself by a direct act of His will, saved persons to be found "in Christ", and that was done from the perspective of eternity past?'

1) This refers to Ephesians 1:4, but that reference is not given.

2) It is true the apostle Paul was telling us something simple!

3) God Himself chose - now that was simple!

4) What did God choose? "Us" a plural pronoun, hence a group corporately.

5) In Him - When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He chose us corporately in Him, because you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan to redeem.

This view is simple, straightforward, consistent with the Greek word meanings and grammar and is the only view that is consistent with all scripture.