An articulate well balanced approach. What say you?

Here is what I posted previously: "He chose us in Him" refers to the corporate election of everyone who will be redeemed by the Chosen Redeemer. When we are individually chosen and placed spiritually in Christ, we receive blessings from heaven, the first being we were chosen corporately before the foundation of the world. God's love toward us is from everlasting.

Absolutely noting in the Greek word meanings or grammar suggests this view is not correct. Anyone who claims otherwise is either ignorant of the Greek or is willing to misrepresent it. QED

 

"Propenents of this view[Ephesians 1:4 pre-temporal corporate election] haved included Robert Shank, Ben Witherington, William Klein, Roger T.Forster, Paul Marston, Joseph Dongell, Jerry Walls, and Clark Pinnock." Archangel will simply say all these people are wrong and he and the Calvinists hold the correct view. This is simply a "my daddy is bigger than your daddy argument."

I certainly do not agree with much of what these have written, but it is preposterious to claim the Greek precludes the view. Only someone who either does not understand Greek or is willing to misrepresent it" would make such a claim. A valid claim would be say this view or that view is more likely because of such and such lines of evidence, but that is not what Archangel has posted.

 

What is amusing to me, and very ironic, is that it would appear tht the main problem Van has with this doctrine of election from the biblical perspectian in Ephesians is NOT based upon what the Apostle actually wrote down as the Greek text, nor proper interpretation on the English version of his choice (KJV), but that he is doing EXACT SAME thing here that he says that Cals do ...

Reading back into it his own theological bias, sraining it through his own religious "grid lock!"

 

Part 1:

And…what, pray tell, does this have to do with anything we are discussing?????

To disparage someone implies a belittling for no reason. This is not what is going on here. You set yourself up a Pariah and a Martyr when any “disparagement” is actually correction—something you do, in fact, need.

You most certainly do claim (through implication) to know Greek. Time and again this is what you say:

If you are claiming the Greek supports your position, then, the implication is, you have the acumen to determine whether the Greek does, in fact, support your position or not. As it is…since you claim to know no Greek and you are claiming to be able to tell whether or not the Greek does or does not support your position, you are simply being double minded, disingenuous, intentionally misleading, and you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

If you would have actually read my posts earlier in this thread you might have seen this:

So, as you can see—and as it is plain for everyone else to see—your charge is absolutely and unequivocally false.

 

Part 2

Again, you have demonstrated nothing of how the Greek grammar does anything. I suspect this is due to your own admission of not knowing Greek.

And, for the record, I have never misrepresented you nor edited a remark. If you will notice, every reply I make—even when I do truncate the original posting for the sake of space (especially when I am not responding point-by-point)—is made with the link to the original.

So, again, a baseless, intentionally false charge on your part.

Yes, I omitted “in Him” because—as the indirect object—it was superfluous to the argument at hand—the argument being, all along, that Ephesians 1:4 does not and cannot be taken to mean that God chose Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now, I do believe (and you see this in other passages) that God did, indeed, choose Christ. However, you are wanting to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ because you believe in this nonsense idea that election occurs in our own lifetime when Ephesians 1:4 says God’s choice happened “before the foundation of the world.” And, I might add, that election of “us” before the foundation of the world is true whether the “us” is individual and not corporate or corporate and not individual.

Either way, you will never be right to appeal to this passage to support your nonsensical idea.

Prove you’re wrong? I’ve done that at every turn.

Calvinists do present arguments (as Arminians do) based on our readings. But, I’m not talking about that—and, I suspect you know that.

No, you repeatedly make claims that “the Greek supports [your] position.” Since you know no Greek (again, by your own admission) how do you know the Greek supports your position?

Only two possibilities exist: 1.) You have read someone’s writings that you have adopted for your own (though probably not verbatim) and you are relying on them for all your Greek information. Or 2.) You are simply making a claim for which you have no substantiation.

So, when we ask you to post your source (again, because you can’t argue the Greek yourself), we want to know who the crack-pot is who is saying things like the middle voice in Ephesians 1:4 means that God chose Himself.

The onus is on you to prove your case.

This is a falsehood. Here, for your information, is what you posted:

What you appear unable to grasp is that Ephesians 1:4 does not refer to God choosing Christ and it cannot refer to God choosing Christ.

And, by the way, do you even know what QED means?

Again, you are changing the issue. If you have read the previous posts, you will know that the issue is not corporate vs. individual election. The issue is that you want to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ, and not individuals or the Church.

You may call me whatever name or ascribe to me whatever dubious things float your boat. However, in the end, as all I’m sure can see, you are only further indicting yourself.

Perhaps the words of Mark Twain could be of help to you: “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

The Archangel

 

You're right. This is a good observation. The situation is as tragic as it is ironic.

I think, though, there might be some deeper issues, like transference, that cause him to lash-out at others for his own shortcomings.

The Archangel

 

Van,

Van let me say it this way.......you constantly disparage yourself. What choice do you leave anyone???
Archangel tries very patiently to read through your posistion, see the error,and offer correction. He goes over your post...point by point....an examination of your post reveals a handful of truth...mixed with a pile of error:thumbs:
He patiently explains the error....not in a personal attack...but calmly in a gramatical, well thought out answer ,he offers you the correct words,and verbs, and tenses, of the verse.

When that happens......biblically you are placed in the cross hairs of several verses, like this;
How you react determines which side of the verse you are on! So far, you are not on the positive portion of the verse.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction

Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

Many have offered you correction...you not only do not take the correction, but remain steadfast in your error,digging in deeper...
This is what a false teacher does. You are one of many who because they resist God's absolute sovereign control over fallen mankind...resist the scriptures.......many have asked you to consider your ways.

Van seriously do you expect we are going to thank you for posting error over and over.....how can we speak well of this?

I suppose we could say....well Van at least you are consistent in this error?

Not everyone agrees on everything here as that is the nature of things, but you are going out of your way to constantly attack calvinistic persons here.

We sometimes react to this folly.....then you wince and seem surprised?

Why not take some time and re-read your posts,and see if it is not so.

 

Wouldn't it be proper, in a "simplestic" sense, to state that the Apostle was tring to say to us that God Himself chose to select out from among humanity a peculiar people. seperated unto Himself by a direct act of His will, saved persons to be found "in Christ", and that was done from the perspective of eternity past?

 

So, as you can see—and as it is plain for everyone else to see—your charge is absolutely and unequivocally false.

With the above quote, Archangel tried to say the Pre-temporal corporate election in Ephesians 1:4 is a possibility. But he did not say that. He spoke of corporate election in the OT and individual election in the NT. Apples and Oranges so yet another example of misrepresentation.

 

Next we have truncating a post as not editing the post. Fiddlesticks. He left out "in Him" probably not to save space but to misrepresent scripture.

 

Next we have Archangel posting three quotes of mine which demonstrate I did not say Ephesians 1:4 refers only to Christ being chosen, but to all those in Christ being chosen corporately before the foundation of the world. Christ was chosen as Redeemer, and as a consequence, all those the Redeemer would redeem were chosen corporately. This is not rocket science. But you do need to be able to read.

 

QED, thus it is proved.

 

Here is a complete falsehood, yet again from Archangel,

Again, you are changing the issue. If you have read the previous posts, you will know that the issue is not corporate vs. individual election. The issue is that you want to say that Ephesians 1:4 says that God chose Christ, and not individuals or the Church.

Folks, I have said Ephesians 1:4 refers to God choosing for Himself the redeemed when Christ was chosen to be the Redeemer. Ephesians 1:4 does not address God's choice of Christ, but does address that we were chosen corporately when He was chosen. This is not rocket science.

 

Perhaps the words of Mark Twain could be of help to you: “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

Would it be too much to hope for that the Calvinists who offer misrepresentation and post an avalanche of disparagement would heed the riverboat author.

They simply address the qualifications and character of all those who point out that Calvinism is a canard.

BTW, I had thought that line was from a Charlie Chan movie. Maybe they stole it from Proverbs 17:28.

 

Is the corporate election of Ephesians 1:4 conditional or unconditional? Nobody had been created, only God in three Persons existed. Now Calvinists will say God had knowledge in His mind of the whole exhaustive history of all creation before He spoke it into being. No verse will be forthcoming for this fiction, except the old standby's "all things are possible with God, and God is all knowing.

Thus when God established His redemption plan, Christ would redeem a chosen people, He chose Christ and therefore corporately chose those Christ would redeem. Now did this plan of redemption have a way for God to put chosen individuals into Christ? Yes.
We are in Christ by God's doing, by the work of Holy Spirit. He places us, baptizes us, into the body of Christ. That is our individual election. And that election is through God's acceptance of our faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

Van,
You are miss representing Archangel and are starting to go into talebearing.
That is a problem...but now your are posting error by calling God's omniscience "fiction".....it figures

I believe almost everyone who reads the bible will see your error being exposed here. Then you go back to your own invention on 1thess 2..this is pathetic.

 

You have posted error non stop.....here are others who post what Archangel posted....thank you very much:thumbs:


He hath chosen us - The word "us" here shows that the apostle had reference to individuals, and not to communities. It includes Paul himself as one of the "chosen," and those whom he addressed - the mingled Gentile and Jewish converts in Ephesus. That it must refer to individuals is clear. Of no "community" as such can it be said that it was" chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy." It is not true of the Gentile world as such, nor of anyone of the nations making up the Gentile world. The word rendered here "hath chosen" - ἐξελέξατο exelexato - is from a word meaning "to lay out together," (Passow,) to choose out, to select. It has the idea of making a choice or selection among different objects or things. It is applied to things, as in Luke 10:42, Mary "hath chosen that good part;" - she has made a choice, or selection of it, or has shown a "preference" for it. 1 Corinthians 1:27, "God hath chosen the foolish things of the world;" he has preferred to make use of them among all the conceivable things which might have been employed" to confound the wise;" compare Acts 1:2, Acts 1:24; Acts 6:5; Acts 15:22, Acts 15:25.

 

Yes, JesusFan, I think you are correct. I think your summary here is very clear, concise, and helpful.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Hi Iconiclast, why put words in my mouth, I never said inherant omniscience is a fiction.
Why can not any Calvinist stick with the truth. Why must they misrepresent what I say. Because four of the DoG are false and they cannot be defended scripturally. So they lob misrepresentations and ad hominens. Go figure. And note, no verse was forthcoming, only an assertion that because many believe God knew everything before He degreed anything, it makes the belief valid. So yet another logical fallacy. One after the other folks, one after the other. QED

 

He is a typical Calvinist assertion:

'Wouldn't it be proper, in a "simplistic" sense, to state that the Apostle was trying to say to us that God Himself chose to select out from among humanity a peculiar people. separated unto Himself by a direct act of His will, saved persons to be found "in Christ", and that was done from the perspective of eternity past?'

1) This refers to Ephesians 1:4, but that reference is not given.

2) It is true the apostle Paul was telling us something simple!

3) God Himself chose - now that was simple!

4) What did God choose? "Us" a plural pronoun, hence a group corporately.

5) In Him - When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He chose us corporately in Him, because you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan to redeem.

This view is simple, straightforward, consistent with the Greek word meanings and grammar and is the only view that is consistent with all scripture.