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An Examination & Critique of The NEW KING JAMES VERSION.

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
the 1982 NKJV that is a genuine revision of the KJV.

If that were true, the NKJV
would not agree word-for-word with
The New World Translation,
but would agree with The Source Version of their "genuine revision".

You avoid and try to dismiss what I specifically presented.

Specifically, then how do specifically explain that,
"All of The Sister-Translations (below) of the Jehovah's Witness'
New World Translation have essentially the exact same wording
for Matthew 28:19, as The New World Translation,
including The New King James Version,

while, continueing to contend for "the Faith once delivered to the saints",
and holding to the
Twin Bible Doctrines of "The Divine Inspiration"

and "Providential Preservation of the Scriptures", all of the previous
English Bible versions over the last 642 years, have essentially the exact same wording for Matthew 28:19, as The King James Version?*

How do you explain that?

*
(although their wording is different from The New World Translation
and from those versions shown above that have departed from the Faith,
in having adopted "The Arm of Flesh", as their Translation Philosophy?)


You have been presented with verifiable specifics

What's going on there? Give me specific verifiable specifics
concerning that specific question, in your answer, to prove what you say.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If that were true, the NKJV
would not agree word-for-word with
The New World Translation,
but would agree with The Source Version of their "genuine revision".

Your opinion is incorrect, and you jump to a wrong conclusion. Furthermore, you do not prove your biased opinion to be true, and you do not apply your assertion consistently and justly. Are you trying to use the guilty-by-association fallacy?

Your assertion would like be claiming that the KJV is not a revision of the Bishops' Bible because there are many places where it does not agree word-for-word with it. The first rule for the making of the KJV stated: “The ordinary Bible read in the church, commonly called the Bishops’ Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the original will permit.” The truth remains that the KJV is a revision of the Bishops' Bible regardless of their many differences.

Would you suggest that the fact that the KJV would agree word-for-word in places with the 1582 Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament that it means that the KJV is based on an edition of the Latin Vulgate of Jerome in those places?

The KJV would likely agree word-for-word in many places with the New World Translation.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If that were true, the NKJV
would not agree word-for-word with
The New World Translation,
but would agree with The Source Version of their "genuine revision".

It remains the truth that the NKJV is a genuine revision of the KJV regardless of your denial of the truth. Why do you question and reject the truth?

No valid, compelling, firsthand evidence has been presented that demonstrates that the NKJV translators consulted or made any use of The New World Translation in their making of the NKJV.

Henry Virkler observed: “Correlation does not prove causation” (A Christian’s Guide to Critical Thinking, p. 144).

Your stated human reasoning is incorrect.

On the other hand, there is firsthand direct evidence from one of the KJV translators that the 1582 Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament was consulted and used in the making of the KJV.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
all of the previous
English Bible versions over the last 642 years, have essentially the exact same wording for Matthew 28:19, as The King James Version?*


How do you explain that?

Do you ignore or avoid the fact that the KJV itself translated the same Greek word translated "teach" in Matthew 28:19 as "disciple" in Matthew 27:57? Why do I need to explain an accurate translation that essentially agrees with how the KJV translated the Greek word in another verse?

Your assertion is not true since all the previous English Bible versions over the last 642 years do not have essentially the exact same wording for Matthew 28:19 as the KJV.

The 1657 English Bible translation of the 1637 Dutch Bible translated Matthew 28:19 as follows:
Go ye therefore, instruct all the nations [Or make disciples among all nations, as this word is also taken] baptizing the same, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost

John Wesley's New Testament [one edition was first printed in 1755] translated Matthew 28:19 as follows:
Go ye and disciple all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

The 1842 revision of the KJV by Baptists translated Matthew 28:19 as follows:
Go therefore and disciple all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The 1862 American Bible Union New Testament translated Matthew 28:19 as follows:
Go therefore, and disciple all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The 1862 Young's Literal Translation that you suggest that you accept translated Matthew 28:19 as follows:
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them--to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The 1902 Emphasized Bible by Joseph Bryant Rotherham [New Testament first printed in 1872] translated Matthew 28:19 as follows:
Go ye therefore and disciple all the nations, immersing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

The 1912 Holy Bible --An Improved Edition printed by the American Baptist Publication Society translated Matthew 28:19 as follows:
Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing (immersing) them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit

The Literal Translation in The Interlinear Bible translated Matthew 28:19 as follows:
Going, then, disciple all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
 
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GodisgraciousR325

Active Member
The 1611 edition of the KJV had some textual marginal notes that referred to readings found in the corrupt Latin Vulgate of Jerome or the corrupt Greek Septuagint.

At Hebrews 6:1, Backus maintained that the 1611 KJV has in the margin "a literal translation of the Vulgate 'the word of the beginning of Christ'" (Reformed Roots, p. 147). At Matthew 4:12, Backus asserted that the 1611 KJV put “the Vulgate reading ‘delivered up’ in the margin” (p. 48). Scrivener suggested that the 1611 marginal note at 2 John 8 came from the Vulgate (Authorized Edition, p. 59). In its marginal note at Mark 7:3, the 1611 KJV has an alternative translation, the literal meaning of the Greek, and the translation of a church father: "Or, diligently, in the Original, with the fist; Theophilact, up to the elbow." The KJV translators put the following marginal note in the 1611 for “mercies” at Acts 13:34: “Greek, [hosios] holy, or just things; which word in the Septuagint, both in the place of Isaiah 55:3, and in many others, use for that which is in the Hebrew mercies.“ At Acts 13:18, the 1611 KJV has another marginal note that refers to the Septuagint and that refers to a church father--Chrysostom.

At Luke 10:22, the textual marginal note in the 1611 stated: "Many ancient copies add these words, 'And turning to his disciples, he said.'" The 1560 edition of the Geneva Bible has in its text at the beginning of Luke 10:22 the following: “Then he turned to his disciples.“ Scrivener suggested that the words in the 1611 margin at Luke 10:22 “are from the Complutensian edition and Stephen’s of 1550” (Authorized Edition, p. 58). At Luke 17:36, the textual marginal note in the 1611 stated: "This 36 verse is wanting in most of the Greek copies." At 2 Peter 2:2, the textual marginal note in the 1611 noted: "Or, lascivious wages, as some copies read." At Acts 25:6, the textual marginal note in the 1611 was the following: "as some copies read, no more then eight or ten days."

Other marginal notes that gave variant readings in the 1611 KJV can be found at Judges 19:2, Ezra 10:40, Psalm 102:3, Matthew 1:11, Matthew 26:26, Acts 13:18, 1 Corinthians 15:31, Ephesians 6:9, James 2:18, 1 Peter 2:21, 2 Peter 2:11, and 18. The 1611 marginal note beginning with “or” at Hebrews 5:2 could be properly considered a textual note since it basically agrees with Beza and the Geneva translation [“which is able sufficiently to have compassion”] while the makers of the KJV may follow the Latin Vulgate reading “who can have compassion” in their text. At Hebrews 5:7, the 1611 marginal note beginning with “or” could be considered a textual note since it indicates the reading of Erasmus [“pro sus reverential”] as followed by Tyndale’s and the Great Bible. In addition, the 1611 marginal note beginning with “or” at Romans 8:11 [“because of his spirit] could also be considered a textual note since Edward F. Hills presented this as a textual difference or variation in editions of the Textus Receptus with Beza having “by his Spirit” and Erasmus and Stephanus having “because of his Spirit” (KJV Defended, p. 222). Scrivener listed Romans 8:11 as one of thirty-seven NT textual marginal notes in the 1611 (Authorized Edition, p. 58). Scrivener indicated that the 1611 marginal note beginning with “or” at Revelation 6:8 “to him” is with “Complutensian, Vulgate, [and] Bishops’ Bible” (p. 59). Backus noted that “at Matthew 7:14 the ‘how’ reading occurs in AV margin (after the Vulgate)” (Reformed Roots, p. 70), and Scrivener listed it as a textual note (Authorized Edition, p. 58). At Mark 1:34, Backus indicated that the KJV followed the Bishops’/Tyndale/Vulgate reading “because they knew him” while “keeping the Beza/Geneva reading [“to say that they knew him”] as marginal alternative” (Reformed Roots, p. 66). In the 1611 at Mark 14:72, Backus asserted that “the Vulgate reading ‘he began to weep’ is suggested as a marginal alternative along with ‘he wept abundantly’ after Erasmus” (p. 75). At Galatians 4:15, Backus maintained that the KJV “adopts the Vulgate text more explicitly than Bois, reading ‘Where is then,’ but inserting the TR reading in the margin” (pp. 135-136). In its marginal note at Luke 8:18, the 1611 KJV evidently has the Latin Vulgate reading “thinking that he hath” (p. 84). At Luke 7:30, the 1611 KJV is said to put the Latin Vulgate reading “frustrated” in its marginal note (p. 83). Concerning Luke 8:18, Backus suggested that “the Vulgate reading ‘thinking that he hath’” is “retained in the margin” (p. 84). At Luke 17:20, Backus indicated that Whittingham, Geneva, Bishops, and KJV all read “with observation” in the text after the Vulgate while the 1611 marginal note “with outward show” is after Beza (p. 87). Backus asserted that the KJV follows the Latin Vulgate and reads “within you” at Luke 17:21 and “inserts the Bezan reading ‘among you’ as marginal alternative” (p. 87). At Romans 1:28 in the 1611 edition, Backus maintained that the “Revisers suggest the Bois/Beza reading as a marginal alternative” (p. 114). Backus asserted that at Romans 5:12 the KJV “inserts the Bezan reading ‘in whom’ in the margin” (p. 159). At Romans 8:22, Backus maintained that the KJV “adopts the Bezan reading in the text and the Vulgate/Erasmus reading in the margin” (p. 118). Concerning 1 Corinthians 10:30, Backus observed: “The Vulgate/Erasmus alternative ‘or by thanksgiving’ as suggested by [KJV translator Andrew] Downes is inserted in the AV margin” (p. 131). As seen in some of the above examples (Matt. 4:12, Mark 1:34, Mark 14:72, Luke 7:30, Luke 8:18, Luke 17:20, Luke 17:21, Rom. 1:28, Rom. 5:12, Rom. 8:22, 1 Cor. 10:30, Heb. 5:2, Heb. 5:7, Heb. 6:1), Backus identified another ten or more 1611 NT marginal notes as being textual that Scrivener may not have noticed as being such and that he did not include in his count or list of thirty-seven. Thus, Scrivener’s count of textual notes in the 1611 is evidently incomplete and is not inflated.

John R. Kohlenberger III pointed out a textual variant in the marginal note in the 1611 edition at Deuteronomy 28:22. John Kohlenberger asserted: “This variant is caused by the change of a single vowel point in Hebrew (horch versus the Masoretic herch) and likely reflects the Vulgate et aestu” (Burke, Translation, p. 50). Kohlenberger noted: “An example of an alternative reading that is not clearly stated is found at Luke 2:38: ‘that looked for redemption in Hierusalem’; note: ‘Or, Israel.’
They are stating facts of others opinions, dosen't mean they agree. Yes they refrenced those corrupt texts, they knew the readings.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
About 15 years ago, I wrote a critique of an "Affirmation of Faith" produced by some ultra-conservative Christian ministers, including the then chairman of the Trinitarian Bible Society. I think it has relevance to the current debate, so here is a small(ish) extract.. Please note that the KJV is called the AV (Authorised Version) in the UK, and that is what I call it throughout the article.

1. Infallibility of Scripture. I never supposed that I would find myself in disagreement with an affirmation of Scriptural infallibility. Indeed, I have no problem with the article until the last two sentences. Even where the Masoretic and Received texts are declared to be the ‘authentic and preserved’ texts, I am actually in agreement. Those who have read this blog will know that I quote from the N.K.J.V. almost exclusively, and that translation uses those very texts. Where I part company with the Affirmation is where it proclaims the Authorized Version to be ‘by far the best and most accurate English translation.’ I beg to differ; but I fully accept the right of any church to use the A.V. if it wishes. I preach from time to time at churches that use the A.V. and I am always happy to use it if requested. If the Affirmation went no further than that, I would not be writing this critique; I would simply leave the authors to their opinion. However, the Affirmation continues, ‘We reject modern and unfaithful versions.’ All modern versions and their users are lumped together and rejected in the very same terms in which Unitarians, Socinians and other heretics are rejected in subsequent articles. What should be a matter of liberty and personal preference is being exalted to a matter of primary importance and, in the light of Article 13, to a matter of separation. If the composers of the Affirmation do not intend that, then they needed to say so. It is worth mentioning that even the translators of the A.V. would not have signed up to the Affirmation. In the Preface of the Translators to the Reader, they wrote, ‘We do not deny, nay, we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English set forth by men of our profession……containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God.’

I could easily be persuaded to join a campaign to promote the Received Text, and I would gladly give financial support to a new Bible translation using that text if it is felt that the N.K.J.V. is not good enough. What I will not do is try to foist a 500 year-old translation with archaic language on the churches; firstly, because it’s a lost cause, and secondly because even if it succeeded it would be a retrograde step. The A.V. shares one feature with every other translation: it was made by fallible, sinful men. Infallibility does not rest with the translators, it rests in the original Greek and Hebrew texts. That is why it is helpful to have someone who knows those languages in every congregation. The A.V. falls short on three counts:-

1. The English language, like every other, has changed over the past four hundred years. Words alter their meanings over time. In 2Thes 2:7, the A.V. translates, ‘Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.’ The word ‘let’ in the 17th Century, meant to restrain or hinder; today, of course, it means ‘allow.’ Therefore the verse means the exact opposite of what the A.V. says it means. The N.I.V. (and other modern versions) translate correctly, ‘But the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.’

2. Some of the language in the A.V. is scarcely comprehensible even allowing for the archaic language. Consider Ezek 41:7. ‘And there was an enlarging, and a winding about still upward to the side chambers; for the winding about of the house went still upward round about the house: therefore the breadth of the house was still upward, and so increased from the lowest chamber to the highest by the midst.’ This may be a word-for-word translation, but what on earth does it mean? A translation that is so literal that no one can understand it is of limited use.

3. Supporters of the A.V. make great play on the fact that some modern translations omit references to the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, as indeed they do (except the N.K.J.V.). The most frequently cited verse is 1 Tim. 3:16, though there are several others. Less well known is that there are two places where all the modern translations affirm the deity of our Lord, but the A.V. does not.

Titus 2:13, A.V. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.’

Titus 2:13, N.I.V. ‘While we wait for the blessed hope- the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ’ (other modern versions are similar).

2 Peter 1:1b, A.V. ‘…..To them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.’

2 Peter 1:1b, N.I.V. ‘….To those who through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ have obtained a faith as precious as ours’ (other modern versions are similar).

The only modern translation that supports the A.V. in these two texts is the New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses! Just in case it might be thought that the A.V. is right in these instances, let the reader look at 2Peter 1:11. Here the A.V. rightly translates, ‘….our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.’ Yet the Greek construction here is exactly the same as in 1:1. I have no doubt that all the translators of the A.V. were staunch Trinitarians, but it ill behoves A.V. supporters to sneer at the N.I.V. while the A.V. contains such serious errors.

There is also another place where the A.V. finds itself in agreement with the J.W.s. In John 1:32, it denies the personality of the Holy Spirit, referring to Him as ‘it.’ If a new Bible version appeared today with a similar error in it, the supporters of the Affirmation would be the first to pillory both the version and its translators .

Let me be clear once again. I am not saying that the A.V. is a bad translation or that it is worse than the N.I.V. The N.I.V. falls short on numerous occasions. What I am saying is that the question of Bible translations should not be made an excuse for separation. Let discussion continue by all means, but in a spirit of love while we contend for the Gospel of Christ. I repeat, if the N.K.J.V. is not acceptable, let us have a new version based on the traditional texts, produced by a Christian organization. I can think of no one better to do it that the Trinitarian Bible Society. There is a Spanish Bible version, the Reina Valera, that is even older than the A.V., and based upon the same texts. Yet this version has been regularly updated as the Spanish language has changed. Revisions were made in 1909, in 1960, and now I understand that the T.B.S. is undertaking a new revision. Quite right! If the A.V. had been carefully revised every 50 years or so (4), there might not have been the need for the plethora of new versions.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
They are stating facts of others opinions, dosen't mean they agree. Yes they refrenced those corrupt texts, they knew the readings.
They included them to give you the information. Not because they are bad readings, they included them because they may be correct. If you don't believe me read the 1611 Translators Preface.

The Translators to the Reader

Reasons Moving Us To Set Diversity of Senses in the Margin, where there is Great Probability for Each​

Some peradventure would have no variety of senses to be set in the margin, lest the authority of the Scriptures for deciding of controversies by that show of uncertainty, should somewhat be shaken. But we hold their judgment not to be so sound in this point.

They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A couple of thoughts on the KJV's use of outdated words, specifically 'bowels' and 'reins.'
Many years ago I was preaching at a church that used the KJV, and I was due to preach on some verses on the Song of Solomon. I read out (5:4), 'My beloved put his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him.' The term 'bowel movements' means something very different today to what it meant then. The elders kept commendably straight faces, but there was general tittering from the pews. I was able to explain the meaning of the word in my sermon, but doing so took away time better used in explaining the text.
There is also 2 Cor. 6:12, where Paul tells the Corinthians, 'Ye are straitened in your own bowels.' It sounds like a nasty medical condition!
With reference to 'reins,' Psalm 16:7 says, 'My reins also instruct me in the night seasons.' The only reins most people have ever heard of are the ones that steer a horse, but 'reins' here actually means 'kidneys,' but to say, 'My kidneys also instruct me in the night seasons' suggests that the Psalmist was suffering from nocturnal incontinence.
Now none of this was the fault of the KJV translators, but the meaning of words have changed, and there's no way to change them back.

Better to use the NKJV which gives:
Song 5:4. 'My beloved put his hand by the latch of the door, and my heart yearned for him.'
2 Cor. 6:12. 'You are restricted by your own affections.'
Psalm 16:7. 'My heart also instructs me in the night seasons.'
 
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