An honest look at "free-will" #1: Gen.3:4-6

[canadyjd]

I purpose to thouroughly debate one passage of scripture at a time, to this end. What does the passage say to us about the notion of "free-will" in men? Let's begin with Genesis 3:4-6

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You surely shall not die! (5) For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil' (6)When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desireable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate."

Is it not clear that the deception/lie of Satan here was that mankind would be capable of using their own human will or "free-will" to make choices of good and evil, just like God does? That must mean they would always be able to choose the good over the evil, just like God does?

Doesn't that make the concept of "free-will" choices in men (always choosing the good instead of evil) a deception from Satan; according to this passage?

peace to youraying:

 

[Arminius]

No. I have many commentaries from all sides and have yet to see your "points" in their exegesis. What it does show is that Eve was able to disobey a direct command from God under the most favorable of circumstances. It actually argues against OSAS, for Eve had no sin nature, yet she and Adam sinned and died that day--spiritually. There is no help for a Calvinist here, but the exact opposite! Adam and Eve acted apart from the stated will of their Creator in Paradise, without a sin nature driving them! Calvinists are so comical. Talk about striking out! Keep posting passages, it gets worse for Calvinism the further into THE BOOK we go.

 

[canadyjd]

No. I have many commentaries from all sides and have yet to see your "points" in their exegesis. What it does show is that Eve was able to disobey a direct command from God under the most favorable of circumstances. It actually argues against OSAS, for Eve had no sin nature, yet she and Adam sinned and died that day--spiritually. There is no help for a Calvinist here, but the exact opposite! Adam and Eve acted apart from the stated will of their Creator in Paradise, without a sin nature driving them! Calvinists are so comical. Talk about striking out! Keep posting passages, it gets worse for Calvinism the further into THE BOOK we go.

Like I said, I want to take an honest look at the passages. You did not do that. You simply stated you haven't seen anyone else exegete the passages that way, make a comment about eternal security (not the question) and then attack Calvinists. :sleep:

If that's how you want to respond, please don't respond. I want to take an honest look at scripture, not be bored to death.

peace to youraying:

 

[Arminius]

You asked questions from a Calvinistic presupposition. Do you not think we don't see that? There is nothing in that passage that supports Calvinism, and plenty that goes against it, as I pointed out. And there really isn't that much to discuss, as it is plain and straighforward. Adam and Eve disobeyed God in paradise with no sin-nature to blame. It is clear then, that mankind was in fact created with the ability to choose to obey God or the Devil, and when our first parents obeyed Satan, our Lord did not destroy them, but reconciled Himself to them, and revealed the plan for the coming Redeemer-Gen 3:15.

 

[BobRyan]

I purpose to thouroughly debate one passage of scripture at a time, to this end. What does the passage say to us about the notion of "free-will" in men? Let's begin with Genesis 3:4-6

"And the serpent said to the woman, 'You surely shall not die! (5) For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil' (6)When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desireable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate."

Is it not clear that the deception/lie of Satan here was that mankind would be capable of using their own human will or "free-will" to make choices of good and evil, just like God does? That must mean they would always be able to choose the good over the evil, just like God does?

Doesn't that make the concept of "free-will" choices in men (always choosing the good instead of evil) a deception from Satan; according to this passage?

peace to youraying:

IF the truth is mankind did NOT have the freedom of Free Will to openly rebel against God if they so chose -- since God CREATED mankind sinless THEN we would have the Calvinist Bible saying...

"And the Serpent came to Eve saying you can not choose anything BUT obedience to your creator since you were made by HIM without Free will".

On the other hand - if we have the Calvinist argument that God was making Eve Sin -- then the serpent would say "Eve it matters not what you want or how much you claim to know what God told you not to do - you are going to sin anyway for God is on my side this day CAUSING you to sin. you have no choice".

But in fact NEITHER Calvinist scenario is true - so what we have is an ARMINIAN scenario where the free will being is being ARGUED into taking an action that they KNOW to be wrong and are at first Rejecting.

It is compelling argument ALONE - debate and emperical data given as EVIDENCE that is convincing Eve to CHOOSE.

That is pure arminianism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[canadyjd]

You asked questions from a Calvinistic presupposition.

Don't presume to put me in a box, sir.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

IF the truth is mankind did NOT have the freedom of Free Will to openly rebel against God if they so chose -- since God CREATED mankind sinless THEN we would have the Calvinist Bible saying...

Can anyone look at the passage of scripture without bashing the Calvinists?

Adam and Eve would not have recognized they were openly rebelling against God because they did not know good or evil until after the fall. They did not conciously "choose" rebellion, since they didn't know what rebellion was. Eve was deceived, and then she enticed her husband. That is what the passage says.

Adam and Eve had human will, which was manipulated by the deceptions of Satan, according to the passage. These deceptions are clearly identified.

One of the deceptions is that they would be "like God", knowing good and evil. That indicates they could use their own abilities, their own human will, to make choices concerning good and evil. Being "like God", they could always choose the good over the evil.

The concept of "free-will" choices among human beings is a deception of Satan from the fall of Adam and Eve forward.

peace to youraying:

 

[BobRyan]

Can anyone look at the passage of scripture without bashing the Calvinists?

Adam and Eve would not have recognized they were openly rebelling against God because they did not know good or evil until after the fall.

That makes no sense at all.

God TOLD them what to do -

Eve STATED that she KNEW that what the Serpent said "was wrong" AND she correctly identified the penalty.

There is no way to turn around and claim Eve "Did not know it was wrong".

She had not "sinned" she did not know what it was like to "experience evil" but she DID know what it was to "experience good".

Obviously.

They did not conciously "choose" rebellion, since they didn't know what rebellion was.

She was conscious when she CHOSE to do what she "just stated" that God told her NOT to do. The text says "When she SAW that it WAS good and that it DID promote life" -- as in the power given to a snake to talk etc - the evidence of "what she SAW" convinced her against what she KNEW to be God's will. She stated God's will correctly but then we see that the argument of satan was in the form of PROOF that God was wrong.

The snake had eaten and yet it did not die as Eve had expected based on God's instruction and warning. This aPPEARED to her as PROOF that God's warning was not true. Based on that she did what many reasoning, thinking, knowing, free-will beings might do - she decided to risk disobedience.

Obviously.

But of course the snake - (Satan in that form) lied.

Eve was ALREADY chosing obedience - for she had not yet eaten of the forbidden tree - -and now in her SINLESS state she was about to ALSO choose evil.

Clearly she had already demonstrated free will.

This is a huge problem for Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Eve was ALREADY chosing obedience - for she had not yet eaten of the forbidden tree - -and now in her SINLESS state she was about to ALSO choose evil.

Clearly she had already demonstrated free will.

This is a huge problem for Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

Huge indeed.

 

[canadyjd]

That makes no sense at all.

Well, it makes sense to me, but maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. Prior to eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve did not know what "evil" was. They did not know what "good" was. They, therefore, had no basis for making "free-will" choices between "good" and "evil". They had human will which was obviously subject to the deceptions of Satan.

They knew that what they were doing was different from what God told them to do, but they could not know that it was "wrong" because they did not know good from evil.

Eve STATED that she KNEW that what the Serpent said "was wrong" AND she correctly identified the penalty.

That is simply incorrect. Eve did not "state" that she knew what the serpent said was "wrong", in a moral sense. Eve stated more clearly the command concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, including the penalty. She was not completely accurate, however. She only stated they would "die". The serpent more clearly stated the penalty in denying it would happen. "You shall not surely die!"

Everything you said about the serpent eating from the tree and not dying; I can't find that in my bible. Help me a little so I can comment on it.

You still did not address the main comment I made concerning this passage. What is the deception?

The deception of Satan is that Eve could use her own human will to make choices between good and evil, and "be like God" when doing it. That is, she would always choose the good over the evil.

Will you address that point?

peace to youraying:

 

[beloved57]

IF the truth is mankind did NOT have the freedom of Free Will to openly rebel against God if they so chose -- since God CREATED mankind sinless THEN we would have the Calvinist Bible saying...

"And the Serpent came to Eve saying you can not choose anything BUT obedience to your creator since you were made by HIM without Free will".

On the other hand - if we have the Calvinist argument that God was making Eve Sin -- then the serpent would say "Eve it matters not what you want or how much you claim to know what God told you not to do - you are going to sin anyway for God is on my side this day CAUSING you to sin. you have no choice".

But in fact NEITHER Calvinist scenario is true - so what we have is an ARMINIAN scenario where the free will being is being ARGUED into taking an action that they KNOW to be wrong and are at first Rejecting.

It is compelling argument ALONE - debate and emperical data given as EVIDENCE that is convincing Eve to CHOOSE.

That is pure arminianism.

In Christ,

Bob

since God CREATED mankind sinless

I disagree, if adam adam and eve where sinless, how did they bring forth the fruit of sin ? The bible teaches against that !

Matt 7

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The scripture says they were good, yeah very good, but no where does it say sinless !

 

[Rew_10]

First of all, I take very little of Genesis literally, and the same for the story of Adam and Eve. But, here's my view in a concise form.

God put Adam and Eve in the garden with this huge tree in the center of it. So, this tree is here and you can't ignore it. Likewise, God put the tree there for Adam and Eve to eat off it. It's the same with a child. You tell a 2-year-old not to touch something, they're going to touch it out of curiosity.

But again, I'm a staunch supporter of evolution, and I feel sure "Adam and Eve" is merely a metaphor of sorts.

 

[canadyjd]

First of all, I take very little of Genesis literally, and the same for the story of Adam and Eve. But, here's my view in a concise form.

God put Adam and Eve in the garden with this huge tree in the center of it. So, this tree is here and you can't ignore it. Likewise, God put the tree there for Adam and Eve to eat off it. It's the same with a child. You tell a 2-year-old not to touch something, they're going to touch it out of curiosity.

But again, I'm a staunch supporter of evolution, and I feel sure "Adam and Eve" is merely a metaphor of sorts.

You are not addressing the points and are arguing things way off topic. I am not asking you about your views on evolution. There is another thread for that.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

The scripture says they were good, yeah very good, but no where does it say sinless !

You wouldn't address my points on this in the other thread, why are you bringing it up here? Please go away.

peace to youraying:

 

[Rew_10]

You are not addressing the points and are arguing things way off topic. I am not asking you about your views on evolution. There is another thread for that.

peace to youraying:

There isn't a thread open about evolution that I've seen, but besides that. My point Canady is that the story of Adam and Eve is NOT REAL.

 

[canadyjd]

There isn't a thread open about evolution that I've seen, but besides that. My point Canady is that the story of Adam and Eve is NOT REAL.

Then you won't waste your time posting in a thread that is of no interest to you, right?

peace to youraying:

 

[Rew_10]

No, I'd like for you to explain why you take it literally.

 

[canadyjd]

No, I'd like for you to explain why you take it literally.

You should open a new thread; "why do you believe Genesis, literally", or some such thing. I promise to come and post:type:

peace to youraying:

 

[Rew_10]

Sounds like a plan:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

No, I'd like for you to explain why you take it literally.

It is the "Details" of the Genesis account that are denied by atheist evolutionists and are embraced in God's Ten Commandments as well as in the Gospel and also in the Psalms.

The details of creating directly by speaking "God spoke and it WAS".

The details of 7 actual days "For in SIX days the Lord... and RESTED the Seventh day... therefore SIX days YOU are to Labor and do all your work but THE Seventh day IS the Sabbath"... Exodus 20:8-11

The Details of "God creating them male and female" from the very beginning.

the DETAIL that Eve was first deceived and then Adam

The DETAIL that from ONE man and the sin of ONE man cam ALL condemnation on all humanity.

The very details themselves are what we find affirmed in the rest of scripture -

Hence - we "believe" that the "ACCOUNT" Gen2:4 is a trustworthy "account".

If you want to debate that point - then it would be good to start that as it's own thread. For the C/A purspose of this thread we pretty much have to all agree to trust in the reliability of the DETAILS of the "account" given in Genesis as the starting point.

In Christ,

Bob