An honest look at "free-will" #1: Gen.3:4-6

[BobRyan]

There isn't a thread open about evolution that I've seen, but besides that. My point Canady is that the story of Adam and Eve is NOT REAL.

In Romans 5 Paul makes his argument from the REAL fall of the REAL Adam.

In Paul's letter to Timothy Paul makes his argument from the REAL fall of the REAL Eve and the REAL temptation involved.

In Exodus 20:8-11 God makes His argument from the REAL seven day creation event. God says that mankind was to observe a REAL 7 day week because "IN SIX days GOD CREATED... and RESTED the Seventh day therefore YOU are to WORK six days and REST the seventh" Exodus 20:8-11.

But imagine if you will that Paul in Romans 6 and in his letter to Timothy - and God in his own Ten Commandments were both arguing from "an EASTER BUNNY fairy tale" to make their case!!

How "different the Bible would be read today".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I disagree, if adam adam and eve where sinless, how did they bring forth the fruit of sin ? The bible teaches against that !

Matt 7

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The scripture says they were good, yeah very good, but no where does it say sinless !

Adam and Lucifer and all the Angels were created by God SINLESs - holy and perfect.

God looked and "behold it was GOOD".

The idea that God created THEM ALL EVIL IS never condoned in all of scripture. And frankly you are the first one I have found to speculate that wild idea on this board.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[canadyjd]

No one has addressed the main comment I made concerning this passage.

What is the deception?

The deception of Satan is that Eve could use her own human will to make choices between good and evil, and "be like God" when doing it. That is, she would always choose the good over the evil.

Will anyone address that point? If you don't think that is what the passage says, please tell me why not.

peace to youraying:

 

[BobRyan]

That is not true at all.

By simply choosing to eat the fruit (regardless of what she might choose afterward disobeying) Eve was already DEMONSTRATING the fact that a sinless perfect holy being created in the image of God AND in full obedience to God -- could ALSO CHOOSE to rebel - to transgress - to sin.

Even if NTHER ACT of sin - no other choice had been made by Eve AFTER eating the fruit - the ONE ACT ALONE showed both options were ALREADY within her grasp AS made from the very start!

The CLAIM of the Serpent was NOT that disobeying God "is not disobeying God" as some seem to imagine - (as hard as that is to believe) -- the claim of the serpent was that she would not DIE for doing it just as the serpent also ATE and clearly did not die!

But we have NO data at all from scripture saying that Eve was sinning BeFORE eating from the tree. This sinless holy being -- called Eve - was already CHOOSING obedience prior to the temptation at the tree... then that SAME sinless holy being chose rebellion! She was capable of BOTH (obviously) and that demonstrates free will from the very start!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tragic_pizza]

Eve gets a bum rap. The sin was Adam's, who was right there, yet did not bother to involve himself.

 

[bmerr]

No one has addressed the main comment I made concerning this passage.

What is the deception?

The deception of Satan is that Eve could use her own human will to make choices between good and evil, and "be like God" when doing it. That is, she would always choose the good over the evil.

Will anyone address that point? If you don't think that is what the passage says, please tell me why not.

peace to youraying:

canadyjd,

bmerr here. I think you might be missing the point. Look at what Satan brings their focus to first, "Yea hath God said..." Satan, then as now, attacks the word of God, attempting to make men doubt it and call it into question. I would grant you that Satan's aim was to decieve Eve into thinking that she could make a better choice than God had made, but to deny her free will is to effectually blame God for her sin, isn't it?

Adam and Eve were given the same choice that all men have been given, namely to either obey God or to disobey God. They had God's word on the subject of the forbidden fruit - "Thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die".

They were then presented with a lie from Satan, "Thou shalt not surely die."

They, as most men do today, chose to believe a lie from Satan, and reject the word of God.

Free will then, free will now.

In Christ (by choice),

bmerr

 

[canadyjd]

As best as I can tell bmerr and BobRyan, you are saying the deception of Satan was that Eve "would not die."

Then you must believe that Satan was not being deceptive when he told Eve she would "Be like God, knowing good and evil"? Is that correct?

peace to youraying:

 

[bmerr]

As best as I can tell bmerr and BobRyan, you are saying the deception of Satan was that Eve "would not die."

Then you must believe that Satan was not being deceptive when he told Eve she would "Be like God, knowing good and evil"? Is that correct?

peace to youraying:

canadyjd,

bmerr here. Oh, I'd agree that the "you'll be as God" thing was part of the deception. My point, (though apparently not made well), was that Adam and Eve had the same choice that all men have had: to either obey God, or disobey God. God said one thing, Satan said something else, and they opted to go with what Satan said. It's a choice any responsible person has to make day in and day out.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[DHK]

No one has addressed the main comment I made concerning this passage.

What is the deception?

The deception of Satan is that Eve could use her own human will to make choices between good and evil, and "be like God" when doing it. That is, she would always choose the good over the evil.

Will anyone address that point? If you don't think that is what the passage says, please tell me why not.

peace to youraying:

The deception was one with the ultimate goal of getting Adam and Eve to rebel against God. God gave Adam and Eve with a will to choose to obey or disobey. He created them with a free will, the ability to choose. They made choices all the time. They made choices in their diet, in their conversation with the Lord as they walked and talked with them. They made choices in what they did from day to day. The fall did not occur immediately after creaton. We are not told how much time elapsed between Creation and the fall. It could have been quite some time. God did not force them to do anything.

Up to the point that Satan entered into the garden and tempted her to do wrong, there was no evil. They had not known evil up to that point. Even with the command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, there was no such thing as evil. They had known only good. Only good existed in the garden. They chose only good. The temptation was to disobey God. Once they disobeyed God, then they would experience evil, and their eyes would be open to what evil was. They would see the difference between good and evil, something that they had never known before.
"And their eyes were opened." Opened to what? Opened to the difference between good and evil. Opened to the fact that they had disobeyed God, and now there would be a consequence for their disobedience. That is why they tried to hide from God. They knew they had sin. They had now experienced evil.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Proposition was:

"An honest look at "free-will" #1: Gen.3:4-6"

Now does that not say it all? Adam's was free will if ever there was. What did he do the very first moment he exercised that free will of his?

Whose will since has been free?
Everybody's : free to sin, yes, everybody's!

It's very freedom is the bondage of fallen man's will.
There no escaping the truth, the confrontation of ourselves with ourselves . . . except through the grace of our sovereign and gracious Lord God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

As DHK has noticed: "And their eyes were opened."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by beloved57
I disagree, if adam adam and eve where sinless, how did they bring forth the fruit of sin ? The bible teaches against that !

Matt 7

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The scripture says they were good, yeah very good, but no where does it say sinless !

BobRyan:

Adam and Lucifer and all the Angels were created by God SINLESs - holy and perfect.

God looked and "behold it was GOOD".

The idea that God created THEM ALL EVIL IS never condoned in all of scripture. And frankly you are the first one I have found to speculate that wild idea on this board."

GE:

You, BobRyan, and I, have before debated this enigma. I came up with the solution Adam fell into sin the very first day of his life -- although he was created perfect and sinless. You objected the same way then as you now object - quite rightly - to beloved57. But there is a great difference between saying or holding that Adam was created sinful, and that he fell directly after that he was created perfect and sinless.

The Bible contains NTHER HISTORY of Adam or Eve.

 

[canadyjd]

The deception was one with the ultimate goal of getting Adam and Eve to rebel against God. God gave Adam and Eve with a will to choose to obey or disobey. He created them with a free will, the ability to choose. They made choices all the time.

I maintain they had human will, subject to deception, not "free-will". The very term "free-will" implies their will was free from coercion or deception. At that point, they were probably free from coercion, but not from deception.

"And their eyes were opened." Opened to what? Opened to the difference between good and evil. Opened to the fact that they had disobeyed God, and now there would be a consequence for their disobedience. That is why they tried to hide from God. They knew they had sin. They had now experienced evil.

And this goes directly to the deception of Satan, knowing good and evil. They did know good and evil, after the fall. The deception was they would "be like God" in the choosing of the good over the evil.

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

And this goes directly to the deception of Satan, knowing good and evil. They did know good and evil, after the fall. The deception was they would "be like God" in the choosing of the good over the evil.

peace to youraying:

There was no evil to know. God is not the author of evil. Everything that God created was Good. He created all things in six days. He looked on his creation and behold "it was very good. There was no evil in it, and that included in Adam and Eve. God did not create evil in Adam and Eve. They were created in a state of innocence. There was no evil. There was no evil to choose. They could only realize evil once they had disobeyed God.
Let me give you another example. Remeber that Adam is "the first Adam," and Christ is the "Second Adam." As Adam was created without sin, so Christ came without sin. As Adam was tempted with sin and failed, so Christ was tempted with sin, and overcame. It is not sin to be tempted. The temptation in and of itself is not sin. The ability to choose "evil" if you want to call it that, is not sin. Otherwise Christ would be a sinner. Christ did not know sin. He was sinless. He never chose to sin. He was tempted, and yet without sin. It was not so with Adam. He was tempted and gave into sin. Notice also that the sin is not imputed to Eve, but to Adam. It was Adam that directly rebelled against the authority of God. Eve was deceived. Adam rebelled. The fall was in Adam's rebellion, not so much in Eve's deception.

 

[canadyjd]

There was no evil to know.

Exactly. There was really nothing to "choose" from. Eve was deceived, Adam ate willingly, but neither understood they were "rebelling" against God when they did so. They weren't choosing evil over good. They were making human will choices that had been manipulated by Satan.

It was not until after the deception and the fall, that sin entered into the world. When sin entered into the world, everything was changed. Even if I conceded Adam and Eve had "free-will", the same could not be said of their offspring. All people born of woman (Eve) were born with a "sin nature".

That sin nature so rules us, without Christ, that we are in a constant state of deception. Jesus said that those who commit sin (that is everyone) are slaves to sin. Slaves do the will of their masters. The master of everyone without Christ is sin.

This was the deception of Satan. It wasn't enough to "know" good and evil. You must be "like God" to choose good from evil. Even if that was their desire, to use their own will to choose good from evil, the instant they sinned, they were rendered unable to do so. That inability has been passed on to all peoples.

Would you agree that Adam and Eve were fundamentally different in some way after the fall? If so, how?

peace to youraying:

 

[BobRyan]

Eve told the snake that SHE KNEW it was wrong. She knew that what the Serpent said was not correct. She stated the truth when confronted with a lie.

Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, ""Indeed, has God said, "You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?''
2 The woman said to the serpent, "" From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, "You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die[/b].'''
4 The serpent said to the woman, ""You surely will not die!

The Serpent then -- more directly contradicts God.

Eve does not say "well if you say so" RATHER she does a detail review of the EVIDENCE being presented AGAINST the Word of God.

6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its

 

[canadyjd]

Eve told the snake that SHE KNEW it was wrong.

I think I addressed this once, but I will try again.

Eve DID NOT tell the serpent SHE KNEW it was wrong. "Wrong" had no meaning to her. "Right" had no meaning to her.

She knew the serpent had not stated the commands concerning the trees of the garden completely, and she stated them more completely, but not exactly. Satan stated the commands more exactly, while denying they were true ("you shall not surely die").

When Eve looked upon the fruit, she was not "revewing the evidence" so she could make her "free-will" choice between good and evil. She didn't know the difference between good and evil until after the fall.

She saw the fruit was good for food (like the other fruit of the garden) and that it was a delight to the eyes (certainly other fruit in the garden was a "delight to the eyes" as well) and...

...that it was desirable to make one wise.

Here is the deception. She believed the deception of Satan that she could use her own human will to choose good over evil and "be like God" while doing so.

Why do you continue to refuse to address the main point of the passage? The deception of Satan is clearly stated. If Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, she will be able to use her own will to "be like God" when "knowing good and evil".

Were Adam and Eve fundamentally changed by the fall? If so, in what way?

You have already stated Adam and Eve had "free-will" before the fall. What was different after the fall? Was their "free-will" hindered in anyway by the presence of sin in their lives? Or do you maintain that Adam and Eve were not changed by the fall at all?

peace to youraying:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Breaking of the Tenth Commandment --- was man's very first sin. 'Sin entered', through craving, desire, ambition. The first sin was spiritual and invisible but to God. Eve like Adam were already guilty of death even before they reached out and ate of the tree. They disbelieved God. That was the first principle of sin then, and is the first principle of sin still.

 

[canadyjd]

Breaking of the Tenth Commandment --- was man's very first sin. 'Sin entered', through craving, desire, ambition. The first sin was spiritual and invisible but to God.

That is not what scripture says. There was only one commandment at that time. Scripture says "sin entered" through the transgression of the command not to eat the fruit. God said don't eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He didn't say, "don't look at the fruit"; He didn't say "don't touch the fruit"; He didn't say, "don't desire to become wise". God said don't eat the fruit.

Coveting didn't exist, anyway. Coveting is a sin and sin didn't "enter" the world until after the fruit was eaten.

Eve like Adam were already guilty of death even before they reached out and ate of the tree. They disbelieved God. That was the first principle of sin then, and is the first principle of sin still.

Scripture does not say Adam and Eve were guilty of death even before they ate of the tree. Scripture does not say Adam and Eve disbelieved God. Scripture says Eve was deceived. The deception was she could "be like God" when "knowing good and evil". That is, she could use her own human will to discern good and evil.

If anything, the first principle of sin is that human beings can choose between good and evil of their own human will. That was certainly the first deception of Satan.

Perhaps you will answer the question I have asked several times. Were Adam and Eve fundamentally changed by the fall? Was their so-called "free-will" affected by the fall? If so, how?

peace to youraying:

 

[BobRyan]

Breaking of the Tenth Commandment --- was man's very first sin. 'Sin entered', through craving, desire, ambition. The first sin was spiritual and invisible but to God. Eve like Adam were already guilty of death even before they reached out and ate of the tree. They disbelieved God. That was the first principle of sin then, and is the first principle of sin still.

When God spoke to Adam and Eve - nothig of what you said was mentioned. Rather - only the incident at the tree.

God did not say "Because you desired ambition before getting to the tree we are kicking you out of the garden".

But it is nice to imagine those little Bible "additions" I suppose.

In Christ,

Bob