Michael Wrenn
New Member
Amen to that!
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An Inclusivist Church
- Thread starter Michael Wrenn
- Start date
Amen to that!
Many churches are leaving the (American) Episcopal Church and joining other conservative episcopal (ie Reformed Episcopal ) or Anglican Church of North America
or you could become Free Will Baptist
seekingthetruth
New Member
WOW..... I actually agree with you on this! :laugh:
Ohhhhhh LOL..... Trust me Michael..... Ole Biblicist, or whatever he wants to call himself, has mellowed allot from what he once was but he holds to orthodox principles & we need more of that. Perhaps if you & your family also stood tall to those very principles they wouldn't be where they are today.
We are all humans & so therefore have sin natures & it is our stinking sin natures we need to be aware of every day. I'd prefer a disciplined "Biblicist" brother that is aware of his natural man nature & disciplines himself against it to a guy who falls into apostate false churches.....however I dont think he would ever have a beer with me & let his guard down. Funny I'm thinking!
convicted1
Guest
It is torturous to listen to people speak in nowadays tongues, when you know that they are not speaking supernaturally, when you know that they do not understand the scriptures that tell us about speaking in tongues.
It is hard to listen to feel good pastors with a large church full of people teaching them, “Don’t try to be perfect,” when the Word of God says, “Aim for perfection.”
It is impossible to be in a Catholic Church, surrounded by statues, and a ‘father’ in front turning the wafer into the real flesh of Jesus.
It is frustrating to be in a church with Calvinists or Lutherans who believe we are all totally depraved and cannot believe in God after learning of Him, when that is the very way the Bible tells us that we do have faith.
I can still love people with different beliefs, and I can spend time with them, eat with them, and help them out if I can. I cannot be part of their gatherings where they teach things that are not biblical.
It is hard to listen to feel good pastors with a large church full of people teaching them, “Don’t try to be perfect,” when the Word of God says, “Aim for perfection.”
It is impossible to be in a Catholic Church, surrounded by statues, and a ‘father’ in front turning the wafer into the real flesh of Jesus.
It is frustrating to be in a church with Calvinists or Lutherans who believe we are all totally depraved and cannot believe in God after learning of Him, when that is the very way the Bible tells us that we do have faith.
I can still love people with different beliefs, and I can spend time with them, eat with them, and help them out if I can. I cannot be part of their gatherings where they teach things that are not biblical.
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glfredrick
New Member
Moriah, I DARE you to show one example of a Calvinist pastor preaching or teaching that people cannot believe in God after learning of Him.
Please post videos of actual sermons to that effect.
Please post videos of actual sermons to that effect.
I do not do or not do things because someone has dared me. Anyone can check out Calvinist pastors and listen to them tell you that exact thing. A video that stands out to me is a YouTube video of Paul Washer trying to pound the lie of Calvinism into a young man who asked Washer questions. It is hard to watch someone leading anyone astray.
This is the perfect opportunity to point out the confusion and deceit Calvinists use in entangling others. They say we CAN believe in God after learning of Him, but that is not true in what they believe, since they are leaving out the part that they believe we cannot believe on our OWN, not without first being saved and born again. That is not the Word of God.
God does NOT save us while we hate Him, see John 14:23.. We can choose to believe in God on our own after learning of Him, see Romans 10:14, Colossians 1:5, 7, 2 Timothy 3:14, and 2 Corinthians 5:11. We do NOT receive the Holy Spirit before we obey. See Acts 5:30-32. THAT is the Word of God.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: IF, I say again IF one believing as Biblicist, disciplines himself away from the draw of the draw of the flesh, it would be in spite of what he believe NOT because of it. If one believes as Biblicist does, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to sin and fall prey to the flesh.
It is a natural impossibility to strive to do what one believes is a natural impossibility. May the following admonition be taken carefully, and may it not be named once among us.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
What you seem to be saying is, that if a person believes they have a sin nature then they will be prone to sin rather than prone to live a godly life, simply because they will attempt to live out what they believe.
But is what you are saying even rational? Don't I believe in an inward new man created in true holiness and righteousness? Don't I believe in the indwelling Spirit that provides power to overcome indwelling sin? Why wouldn't that belief lead me to resist sin by depending upon God's provision to overcome indwelling sin?
Do you believe in the existence of sin? Do you believe in the Devil? Do you believe in hell? Does that belief make you prone to sin, serve the Devil and strive to go to hell?? Your rationale simply is illogical and irrational.
Overcoming indwelling sin is not about personal discipline but personal dependency upon the power of the Indwelling Spirit of God. It begins by experientially learning that I cannot overcome it in my strength (Rom. 7:18) and thus by experiencing "O wretched man that I am" when I attempt to discipline myself or will myself against sin, that drives me to Colossians 2:6 practice - "as you received the Lord Jesus Christ so likewise walk ye in him". I received Christ by faith and the only way I will be able to "walk" is by faith in the provision He has given me to overcome sin - the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.
You see that is my real belief! So would not that believe lead me in a tendency to yeild to the Spirit to fight sin rather than yeild to sin and suffer the "wretched" experience????? Where is your logic?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
One certainly dos not have to strive against sin too hard to have a testimony such as I have heard by so many, of sinning everyday in thought word and deed. Sin looses it's heinousness and shame when sin is reduced to the mere natural consequence of being born human, depraved from inception by ones creator. One might as well believe the color of their skin is heinous as to believe something were are born with is. Sin looses its blameworthiness when sin is reduced to the same level as of any other inherited human trait, much like the color of ones eyes or hair.
What is the worth of all the striving against sin when ones actions have absolutely nothing to do with ones salvation, and absolutely nothing one can do can in any way have any affect upon ones final standing, i.e., due to OSAS? How can one fight against sin when they honestly believe it is impossible to overcome sin in this present world, denying that even with the help profferred by the Holy Spirit, sin cannot be resisted? Why strive against sin when the only freedom from sin one can expect to find in this world either is imputed via ones position in Christ, and that apart from anything we do or could do? Why fight against sin if one honestly believes the Spirit of God is not able to keep one from sinning, or to make one free from sin, and in reality deliver one faultless......except for in some 'positional' manner as is so often touted by the OSAS followers, which happens automatically in reality from the first moment of salvation and continues until this world is over, regardless of any and all efforts on our part, at least in their own eyes and minds?
One of the most important, if not the most important issue of doctrine is the lifestyle and actions it imbibes in this present world. I have live long enough to see the clear effects upon the lives and testimonies of those holding fast to OSAS. We shall soon see how those holding to OSAS faired in securing what they claim they had inseparably found.
One thing is certain, I will not be their judge, but a Just God will be that they seem to have little regard for true obedience to His laws, seem to stumble over the many warnings in Scripture, and seemingly show little regard to the testimony of conscious as testified to by the daily sinful lifestyles so many openly confess to living. One can only hope that in reality their hearts have faired better than their outward testimonies and doctrines testified to.
One of the most telling passages in Scripture concerning the end times is:
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Pay close attention to the latter part of verse 3. If there was anything that I see among some on this list is their absolute abhorrence to one living or claiming to live, via the help of the Holy Spirit, a life of holiness. To even suggest that such a walk can be achieved in this world brings a great variety of personal attacks and insults. False accusations, fierce insults, and total and complete reprobation of any and all that again, only believe that such a life is not only possible but is to be sought by all claiming they love God and who take the name of Christ.
Biblicist has shown himself to be such a person. He has gone out of his way, even in clear violation of the rules of this forum on many occasions, to demeanor and besmirch any and all that would testify or even point to living a good life pleasing to the Lord in this present world. His vociferous hatred and relentless attacks towards any and all professing or seeking godliness (that I believe should be denoted as a 'good' thing according to Scripture) in this present world, is well noted.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
What is the worth of all the striving against sin when ones actions have absolutely nothing to do with ones salvation, and absolutely nothing one can do can in any way have any affect upon ones final standing, i.e., due to OSAS? How can one fight against sin when they honestly believe it is impossible to overcome sin in this present world, denying that even with the help profferred by the Holy Spirit, sin cannot be resisted? Why strive against sin when the only freedom from sin one can expect to find in this world either is imputed via ones position in Christ, and that apart from anything we do or could do? Why fight against sin if one honestly believes the Spirit of God is not able to keep one from sinning, or to make one free from sin, and in reality deliver one faultless......except for in some 'positional' manner as is so often touted by the OSAS followers, which happens automatically in reality from the first moment of salvation and continues until this world is over, regardless of any and all efforts on our part, at least in their own eyes and minds?
One of the most important, if not the most important issue of doctrine is the lifestyle and actions it imbibes in this present world. I have live long enough to see the clear effects upon the lives and testimonies of those holding fast to OSAS. We shall soon see how those holding to OSAS faired in securing what they claim they had inseparably found.
One thing is certain, I will not be their judge, but a Just God will be that they seem to have little regard for true obedience to His laws, seem to stumble over the many warnings in Scripture, and seemingly show little regard to the testimony of conscious as testified to by the daily sinful lifestyles so many openly confess to living. One can only hope that in reality their hearts have faired better than their outward testimonies and doctrines testified to.
One of the most telling passages in Scripture concerning the end times is:
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Pay close attention to the latter part of verse 3. If there was anything that I see among some on this list is their absolute abhorrence to one living or claiming to live, via the help of the Holy Spirit, a life of holiness. To even suggest that such a walk can be achieved in this world brings a great variety of personal attacks and insults. False accusations, fierce insults, and total and complete reprobation of any and all that again, only believe that such a life is not only possible but is to be sought by all claiming they love God and who take the name of Christ.
Biblicist has shown himself to be such a person. He has gone out of his way, even in clear violation of the rules of this forum on many occasions, to demeanor and besmirch any and all that would testify or even point to living a good life pleasing to the Lord in this present world. His vociferous hatred and relentless attacks towards any and all professing or seeking godliness (that I believe should be denoted as a 'good' thing according to Scripture) in this present world, is well noted.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
glfredrick
New Member
Moriah... You made the accusation. I'm calling you out on it. Either produce or recant.
You do not grasp or understand the Biblical definition of sin! You understand one definition of sin but you do not understand the biblical comprehensive doctrine of sin.
Sin originates within the heart of man as Jesus clearly states in Matthew 15 and in his definition of violating the sixth and seventh commandment in Matthew 5.
Sin has to do with the a wrong motive in "thought" processes whether or not the actual external act is carried out to fruition or not.
Sin is failure to recognize and thank God for all blessings of life.
Sin is failure to love the Lord your God with ALL of what you are ALL the time.
Sin is acting upon something contrary to what YOU believe whether it is right or wrong in itself or in the eyes of others.
For any unglorified human being to declare that at any moment in his life that he is comprehensively free from sin is the utter advertisement of complete ignorance and arrogance and thus sin in and of itself. It is the claim to be as Good as God when the Bible denies such a man exists outside of Jesus Christ simply because all men are YET UNGLORIFIED and thus still sinners - missing the mark of the glory of God.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
GLF, can you cite where the so called accusation was made so we can understand the issue you are raising with Moriah? Thanks.
glfredrick
New Member
Read the thread before you start butting in...
Moriah, just above in this thread made a radical statement concerning the message that Calvinist preach. I called him out on it -- if it is true he should be able to find any number of evidences to prove it -- but if it is false, then Moriah is spreading falsehoods about something that he really does not understand well, or worse, that he is intentionally trying to harm with those falsehoods.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I believe I understand your position, and I believe Scripture clearly shows you are in error. "Being made free from sin ..." "Sin shall no more have dominion over you." On and on the list goes.
The biggest problem I have with your approach, is not necessarily your position, but the absolute reckless abhorrence you have towards any that you find in disagreement with your position. You present yourself and your positions as to be the truth, all others liars or heretics etc.
In one of the most thought provoking messages I have ever encountered was the following admonition: Consider what if I could be wrong.
Some of the most brutal and heinous attacks by individuals upon others have been carried out by individuals that have never taken that wise and careful introspective advice. They thought it impossible for them to be wrong. Biblicist, I see such an attitude expressed by you on a regular basis.
It is not called "butting in" you rude person.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Sorry, GJF, but this reader cannot understand your response to what Moriah wrote. I see nothing in his comment that would elicit your response.