An Inclusivist Church

[glfredrick]

It is torturous to listen to people speak in nowadays tongues, when you know that they are not speaking supernaturally, when you know that they do not understand the scriptures that tell us about speaking in tongues.
It is hard to listen to feel good pastors with a large church full of people teaching them, “Don’t try to be perfect,” when the Word of God says, “Aim for perfection.”
It is impossible to be in a Catholic Church, surrounded by statues, and a ‘father’ in front turning the wafer into the real flesh of Jesus.
It is frustrating to be in a church with Calvinists or Lutherans who believe we are all totally depraved and cannot believe in God after learning of Him, when that is the very way the Bible tells us that we do have faith.
I can still love people with different beliefs, and I can spend time with them, eat with them, and help them out if I can. I cannot be part of their gatherings where they teach things that are not biblical.

Here is the thread by Moriah to which I take exception.

I bolded the parts that I am concerned with. Moriah lumps a false view of Calvinism in with other views that are actually at odds with Scripture.

I ask him to DEMONSTRATE that Calvinists ACTUALLY preach or teach that message.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: I believe I understand your position, and I believe Scripture clearly shows you are in error. "Being made free from sin ..." "Sin shall no more have dominion over you." On and on the list goes.

As you usual you have no competence with scriptural context. Romans 6 follows a detailed exposition of justification by faith (Rom. 3:24-5:2). We are therefore POSITIONAL free from all sin by the representative person of Christ acting in our behalf legally before God thus vindicating us from all charges of sin.

We can be free from the dominion of sin in our life as we "yeild" to the Spirit of God. But to say we are comprehensively free from sin is advertising complete ignorance of the very basics of salvation and the fundementals of the faith.

Of course anything is "reckless" when it condemns your unbiblical teachings.

What should concern you is that you always ignore the Biblical evidence and simply dismiss it by your own personal opinions rather than any valid exegetical basis whatseover. This is your MO in responding to Biblical evidence.

 

[Moriah]

Here is the thread by Moriah to which I take exception.

I bolded the parts that I am concerned with. Moriah lumps a false view of Calvinism in with other views that are actually at odds with Scripture.

I ask him to DEMONSTRATE that Calvinists ACTUALLY preach or teach that message.

Do you not know that Calvinists believe we cannot believe in God after learning of Him?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thanks GLF. Interesting point. I will have to think about that one and respond when I have time if that is ok.

 

[DaChaser1]

Do you not know that Calvinists believe we cannot believe in God after learning of Him?

Do you know that the Bible does NOT say that we have any "natural faith" residing within us, as all that we have is spiritual death, and as such , we cannot come to saving faith in jesus unless the Lord Himself opens up our minds to receive the truth of the Gospel, as He must intevene and grant us even the faith needed to be able to get saved!

 

[mandym]

Show me :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DaChaser1]

Show me :smilewinkgrin:

Acts 13:48
luke 24:45

Boh show us theat the Lord has to open hearts/mids first, that those whom were "already" to be saved hy God actually get saved!

Epesians 2:8-9

faith part of the Gift that God grants unto us in order to be the saved!

 

[mandym]

Acts 13:48

Nothing there about granting faith. To suggest so is eisegetical at best.

luke 24:45

Nothing there about granting faith. To suggest so is eisegetical at best.

Boh show us theat the Lord has to open hearts/mids first, that those whom were "already" to be saved hy God actually get saved!

I concur that the Lord has to open the heart.

Epesians 2:8-9

faith part of the Gift that God grants unto us in order to be the saved!

That is quite a stretch, sometimes reformed folks are not very careful with scripture. It says nothing about being part of the gift.

 

[DaChaser1]

Nothing there about granting faith. To suggest so is eisegetical at best.




Nothing there about granting faith. To suggest so is eisegetical at best.



I concur that the Lord has to open the heart.



That is quite a stretch, sometimes reformed folks are not very careful with scripture. It says nothing about being part of the gift.

We don't possess the "natural faith" in us as sinners to be able to even come to Christ in a saving fashion, hence the gift of faith by god!

 

[glfredrick]

Do you not know that Calvinists believe we cannot believe in God after learning of Him?

No, and as an actual Calvinist with some considerable background in doctrinal study, exegesis in biblical languages, and theology, both historical and modern, I cannot say that any Calvinist would "know" this.

Again, YOU brought this to the table, so YOU are the one who must either defend your statement or recant.

Which is it?

So far you have brought exactly NOTHING except your strawman claim.

 

[Moriah]

No, and as an actual Calvinist with some considerable background in doctrinal study, exegesis in biblical languages, and theology, both historical and modern, I cannot say that any Calvinist would "know" this.

Again, YOU brought this to the table, so YOU are the one who must either defend your statement or recant.

Which is it?

So far you have brought exactly NOTHING except your strawman claim.

Just because you claim I am not telling the truth, that does not make you right and me wrong. Calvinists and Lutherans teach total depravity. That is what they teach. For you to say they do not teach that that is a deceitful debate tactic. You do not agree with what I say, then you go and show me proof that I am wrong.

Total depravity means that no one can believe in Jesus fter learning of him, but that Jesus has to save you first, cause you to be born again, and then you will be able to say you believe in God.

Now stop harassing me. You go and try to prove that I am wrong, just do not claim I am wrong by your own opinion.

 

[Moriah]

Do you know that the Bible does NOT say that we have any "natural faith" residing within us, as all that we have is spiritual death, and as such , we cannot come to saving faith in jesus unless the Lord Himself opens up our minds to receive the truth of the Gospel, as He must intevene and grant us even the faith needed to be able to get saved!

That is not true what you say. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say we cannot believe in God after learning of Him. In fact, the scriptures say that is how we do get faith. The message of Jesus Christ is powerful. I gave scriptures, but you cannot give not one scripture that says what you believe.

 

[Moriah]

Acts 13:48

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Calvinists falsely use Acts 13:48 to support Calvinism. The newly appointed Gentiles, who were once excluded, all the Gentiles who were there--they believed! All the Gentiles that were there, the newly appointed Gentiles, all of them there believed. Calvinism twists these scriptures into something else.

luke 24:45

Boh show us theat the Lord has to open hearts/mids first, that those whom were "already" to be saved hy God actually get saved!

Jesus opening minds to understand the gospel does NOT disprove that we get faith from hearing the word. Jesus opened the minds of his disciples to understand the scriptures, his disciples already BELIEVED AND HAD FAITH IN GOD FIRST.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Epesians 2:8-9

faith part of the Gift that God grants unto us in order to be the saved!

In Ephesians 2:9, that is about grace being a gift, not faith.

 

[DaChaser1]

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Calvinists falsely use Acts 13:48 to support Calvinism. The newly appointed Gentiles, who were once excluded, all the Gentiles who were there--they believed! All the Gentiles that were there, the newly appointed Gentiles, all of them there believed. Calvinism twists these scriptures into something else.



Jesus opening minds to understand the gospel does NOT disprove that we get faith from hearing the word. Jesus opened the minds of his disciples to understand the scriptures, his disciples already BELIEVED AND HAD FAITH IN GOD FIRST.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.


In Ephesians 2:9, that is about grace being a gift, not faith.

Why did the gentiles who believed in acts actually believe in what theyheard?

God had already selected/chose them out and enabled them to believe it!

The gentiles that were not preappointed to eternal life heard same message, nothing happened!

 

[DaChaser1]

That is not true what you say. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say we cannot believe in God after learning of Him. In fact, the scriptures say that is how we do get faith. The message of Jesus Christ is powerful. I gave scriptures, but you cannot give not one scripture that says what you believe.

Until,God grants yopu the ears to hear, mind and heart to believe and receive, you will stay in your spiritual state of being dead to God!

 

[glfredrick]

Just because you claim I am not telling the truth, that does not make you right and me wrong. Calvinists and Lutherans teach total depravity. That is what they teach. For you to say they do not teach that that is a deceitful debate tactic. You do not agree with what I say, then you go and show me proof that I am wrong.

Total depravity means that no one can believe in Jesus fter learning of him, but that Jesus has to save you first, cause you to be born again, and then you will be able to say you believe in God.

Now stop harassing me. You go and try to prove that I am wrong, just do not claim I am wrong by your own opinion.

If I thought that you had a clue what you were talking about I might consider continuing this discussion, but it is now patently obvious that you need to do some homework first.

Do you even understand the doctrine of total depravity and that it is in regard to our ability to come to God based in our own efforts? You seem to indicate that we can indeed do that -- and if you do (as it appears) then it is you who stand outside the norm for Christian belief down through the ages.

 

[glfredrick]

That is not true what you say. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say we cannot believe in God after learning of Him. In fact, the scriptures say that is how we do get faith. The message of Jesus Christ is powerful. I gave scriptures, but you cannot give not one scripture that says what you believe.

Do you realize that the Scripture you gave points to GOD having to do the work of enabling the believer to hear?

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

 

[Moriah]

If I thought that you had a clue what you were talking about I might consider continuing this discussion, but it is now patently obvious that you need to do some homework first.

Do you even understand the doctrine of total depravity and that it is in regard to our ability to come to God based in our own efforts? You seem to indicate that we can indeed do that -- and if you do (as it appears) then it is you who stand outside the norm for Christian belief down through the ages.

Now that you ADMIT that what I said about Calvinism is correct, why do you not apologize? You harassed me throughout this thread demanding I recant. Now you can apologize for the false accusations.

 

[Moriah]

Do you realize that the Scripture you gave points to GOD having to do the work of enabling the believer to hear?

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Those whom God opened the eyes of, THEY WERE BELIEVERS WITH FAITH FIRST.

 

[Moriah]

Until,God grants yopu the ears to hear, mind and heart to believe and receive, you will stay in your spiritual state of being dead to God!

Jesus opened the mind to the people who ALREADY BELIEVED. THEY BELIEVED IN JESUS FIRST BEFORE THEIR MINDS WERE OPENED.

Jesus' disciples were already his disciples first before he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.