Ananais and Sapphira...lost?

[webdog]

Well, let me ask you this, how can Satan, who is not omni-present/science/powerful, come into your thoughts if the Lord is present in your body?

Maybe God allows it? Did God not say satan could do anything but kill Job? Why do you think Job's wife said "curse God and die"? Would you say she was a believer? Why are we told to resist satan...if he can not influence us? Me thinks you are the confused one...

 

[James_Newman]

Ephesians 4:23-27
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.

What does it mean to give place to the devil?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

James 4:7
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

BPT, if Satan could have no influence on a believer, why would we have verses like this in the bible?

I never said he could have no influence over the believer. I said he cannot possess/infill/put thoughts in your head/et al, etc. etc.

As a pastor Satan tries to influence me through varies means, circumstances, other people, etc.

The fact is that Satan is able to temp but that does not mean he is able to spiritually enter your body (body/soul/mind) in anyway.

I interpret the above passage as making reference to the temptation that a believer faces.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Maybe God allows it? Did God not say satan could do anything but kill Job? Why do you think Job's wife said "curse God and die"? Would you say she was a believer? Why are we told to resist satan...if he can not influence us? Me thinks you are the confused one...

No I am not at all confused. I am theologically trained, biblically well informed, and spiritually well grounded.

So on the one hand you say that Satan cannot exist where the Holy Spirit exists. I said Satan cannot co-exist where the Holy Spirit exist. You replied that you never said he could nor did you claim to have ever suggested such.

Yet, read your above quote.

You are claiming that Satan can enter the thoughts of an individual who is a believer.

Your defense for such a contradiction? Maybe God allows it? Please. Jesus said that Satan is not against Satan for a house divided will not stand. Do you think any less of God? Do you think that on the one hand God is holy and will not allow Satan into the holy of holies, except when he feels like it?

You have no textual evidence that Job's wife was possessed by the Devil. Yet, you make a desperate appeal to that as your biblical evidence.

As to why we are told to resist read my above response.

 

[2BHizown]

Nay, James 2 shows us that faith alone cannot save a man, and that a man is justified by works as well as faith. It says nothing about works being the result of faith. It is also written to folks that are already saved by faith alone, so it is talking about another type of salvation.

I beg your pardon! It is clearly showing that if one has faith, there will be works as evidence! The absence of works shows a persons faith to be 'dead'. Read verse 18 again. True faith always involves a whole commitment of oneself to God with resulting good works!

 

[webdog]

You have no textual evidence that Job's wife was possessed by the Devil. Yet, you make a desparate appeal to that as your biblical evidence.

Did I say anything about her being "possessed"? Influenced? Yes.

What's your take on this?
Mat 16:23 But He turned and told Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me because you're not thinking about God's concerns, but man's."

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Ephesians 4:23-27
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.

What does it mean to give place to the devil?

Do not give the devil a foothold to work from... has nothing to do with possession/oppression.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Did I say anything about her being "possessed"? Influenced? Yes.

What's your take on this?
Mat 16:23 But He turned and told Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me because you're not thinking about God's concerns, but man's."

First of all, Peter was not born again with the Holy Spirit. That did not occur until Pentecost. Second, Satan spoke directly face to face with Jesus. He tempted him in the desert and was not successful in getting Jesus to fall into sin. Third the Satan means, adversary or enemy. Forth, Jesus in this case is not saying that Peter was filled with Satan but that the words Peter uttered were in fact the very opposite of what God intended. If Peter would have persisted in his belief it may have been possible that Satan was possessing Peter, but Peter also confessed Jesus to be the Christ, which was of God. Can both fresh and salt water flow from the same stream? My take is that Peter was in the flesh and full of pride and that his sinful nature was in full force, so much so that Jesus rebuked the thought as straight from the pit of hell. But even if you believe otherwise you do not have a case here. Why? The New Covenant is that once saved always saved. The once will take care of the always. The moment you are born again, you have benefit and receive protection from the Holy Spirit, not before.

 

[James_Newman]

I beg your pardon! It is clearly showing that if one has faith, there will be works as evidence! The absence of works shows a persons faith to be 'dead'. Read verse 18 again. True faith always involves a whole commitment of oneself to God with resulting good works!

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

There is nothing in this chapter about 'true faith'. In fact there is nothing in the bible at all about 'true faith'. Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. But dead faith (faith alone) is still faith. If you have faith, but you do not exercise it and add works to it, what does it profit? Nothing in this context. But faith will deliver a lost sinner from the lake of fire.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

What is the operative word here? Show me. Show me thy faith without thy works. Probably can't do it. Why do we need to show our faith by our works? James says it is because we are justified by works. Justified in what sense?

 

[2BHizown]

I'm not saying that a believers soul is not in peril, brother. Rather I affirm it, brother. Christ would not have us lukewarm, and we may find ourselves spewed out of His mouth. But nevertheless, to add conditions to the free gift of salvation is to nullify the blood of Christ. He said believe.

You are confusing evidence with conditions here! How would you prove you had in fact received the gift? By the evidence of a changed life with love for the brethren and good works. That is NOT a condition but it is the proof!

 

[James_Newman]

I find it humorous to think that Ananias was possessed by the devil, and the best thing Satan could come up with to do was lie about how much money he had. There is no reason to demand that 'Satan filled thine heart' meant that Satan entered and possessed Ananias. Ananias gave place to the devil, was drawn after his own lusts, and sin, when it had conceived, brought forth death.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I find it humorous to think that Ananias was possessed by the devil, and the best thing Satan could come up with to do was lie about how much money he had. There is no reason to demand that 'Satan filled thine heart' meant that Satan entered and possessed Ananias. Ananias gave place to the devil, was drawn after his own lusts, and sin, when it had conceived, brought forth death.

You think that someone in the early church who is recorded to have died on the spot after lying to the Holy Spirit for whatever reason is funny? I find that sad.

In the case of Peter when Jesus called him Satan it was prior to Pentecost and based on his rebound we are lead to believe that he did not commit blasphemy. In these two's case there is no reason to reduce the statement that they were filled with Satan in their heart to an impersonal force. If the Bible does not mean what it says, then why did God not say what he meant?

 

[James_Newman]

You are confusing evidence with conditions here! How would you prove you had in fact received the gift? By the evidence of a changed life with love for the brethren and good works. That is NOT a condition but it is the proof!

I recieved the gift by faith, brother. If works are not a condition for being justified by works, then what is?

 

[James_Newman]

Peter denied Christ three times, not blasphemy. Satan lies about his income, blasphemy.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Peter denied Christ three times, not blasphemy. Satan lies about his income, blasphemy.

Foremost, you are trying to apply extra-biblical logic to these occurrences. The text states that they were filled with Satan, ie possessed by Satan. They are clearly accused by an apostle of having lied to the Holy Spirit. If you take a plain reading of the text that is what you get. Deal with it.

 

[James_Newman]

No, the text says they were filled by satan.

 

[webdog]

Foremost, you are trying to apply extra-biblical logic to these occurrences. The text states that they were filled with Satan, ie possessed by Satan. They are clearly accused by an apostle of having lied to the Holy Spirit. If you take a plain reading of the text that is what you get. Deal with it.

...yet you deny what filled means in the greek.

 

[EdSutton]

Riddlebarger is promoting a works-based spiritual salvation. This should be enough of a clue right here to dismiss what he is saying.

I guess what it boils down to, from Riddlebarger's perspective, is that you must make sure that you are really, really, really, really truly saved, and if your works don't reflect that, then you're not.

What exactly does one mean "that you must make sure you are really, really, really, really truly saved, and if yourworks don't reflect that, then you're not."? Is that somehow different from "saved"? I have never found the phrase "really and truly saved" in any Bible I've looked at. In fact, in the KJV (AV) , RV, or ASV, I don't believe you can even find the words "real" or "really". But I did manage to find "saved", "sure", "know", "certain", and "certainty". Granted, "certain" is rarely, if ever, used in the way we use the word, today. Oh yeah, you do find "truly", but I don't believe you can ever find that word used in the context of "salvation", at least not in the AV. I'm not so sure about the ASV, not havig looked up each word change from the KJV. But both 'truly' and 'certain' are found in Scripture unlike "really". Now back to our story, after shooting at the theological rabbit running by!
I've found, over the years, that "really and truly saved" seems to be little more than a 'code phrase' for "Lordship Salvation", which is itself, a "back-door" attempt to sneak "works" inside the building, and attempt to push them out in front of the 'hoss', rather than having that wagon at the door to hitch to. The problem is the door! The door at "Salvation Stables" is only wide enough to ride the horse of faith thru. The wheels on the 'works wagon' are too wide, and, does not allow the wagon to be pushed through the door. But get that horse out the door, hitch him to that wagon, and he can and does perform admirably and properly. Think about it!

Ed

After reading this passage, it seems to me that Ananias and Sapphira were probably believers, but also wanted the praise. They didn't get it. Instead they got a death sentence for lying to the Holy Spirit. Since they are mentioned in the company of believers, I think they were probably saved. But as SBCPastor pointed out early, Scripture does not make a definitive statement to that effect.

 

[James_Newman]

After reading this passage, it seems to me that Ananias and Sapphira were probably believers, but also wanted the praise. They didn't get it. Instead they got a death sentence for lying to the Holy Spirit. Since they are mentioned in the company of believers, I think they were probably saved. But as SBCPastor pointed out early, Scripture does not make a definitive statement to that effect.

Exactly, they tried to have their cake and eat it too. Jesus said whosoever would have his cake would lose it, and whosoever would lose his cake for His sake would find it. (loosely paraphrased of course) Woe to any hypocrite that would keep his cake and then try to play like he gave it up.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

...yet you deny what filled means in the greek.

You have a paradox solve. On the one hand, the Bible means what it says and therefore you have to deal with it. Or on the other, you can go and try and make it say what you want it to but you cannot have not have it both ways.

The very same verb is used in 4:31 to refer to the filling of the Holy Spirit. So which is it are they filled with the Holy Spirit or are they filled with Satan? It cannot be both... even you admit that.