Ananais and Sapphira...lost?

[James_Newman]

At the same time the fact that we are people of the new covenant drives home the absolute necessity of living in obedience to God’s commands as the expression of our faith in his promises.

Which promise? The promise that if we keep His commandments, we'll be raised up on the last day? Oh wait, thats not a promise He made. Is it?

 

[James_Newman]

But maybe my undeducated mind just wasn't able to get around the complexities of your post It sure sounds like works salvation to me.

That's the simplicity that is in Christ??? It's a far cry from
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[Blammo]

God is the source and supply of all our lives, as demonstrated by his calling and equipping his people for service in a covenantal relationship with him. The call of God takes place by virtue of the work of Christ, and the service takes place by means of the Spirit. There is no synergism in the covenant in which God contributes his part and we do ours in order to accomplish something together that is greater than either of our efforts in isolation. God is not looking for our help. The importance of the cross in salvation and on the work of the Spirit in justification and sanctification makes it evident that the initiative, origin, and sustenance of the new covenant is due solely to the unilateral and merciful work of God on behalf of his people.

It is the Spirit, in bringing one to Christ for forgiveness of sins, who brings into being the new life of the new creation. One can claim faith in Christ and remain faithful to him only by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our covenantal relationship with God is from beginning to end based on God’s previous act of redemption and continuing acts of provision. This is the great indicative reality of the gospel.

At the same time the fact that we are people of the new covenant drives home the absolute necessity of living in obedience to God’s commands as the expression of our faith in his promises. Keeping God’s commands is what trusting in God as the source and supply of our lives looks like in everyday life. Given God’s justifying and sanctifying work in the lives of his people as guaranteed and brought about by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, there is no excuse for habitually failing to trust God’s gracious provisions and promises in Christ. Faith that trusts God to meet one’s needs invariably expresses itself through love as the fulfillment of the law. (Gal. 5:6, 14; Rom. 13:10).

As I had mentioned earlier, God commands his people not to steal because he has committed himself to meet their needs. To steal is to disbelieve God’s promise in this regard. As some of you have argued, God commands his people not to covet because he has already promised to satisfy their deepest longings, ultimately in himself (Eph. 5:5; Col. 3:5). Therefore to say all that I need to be happy is found in something material is to commit idolatry by failing to trust God’s covenantal commitment that he will be enough for us.

The fundamental point concerning our covenantal relationship with God in this regard is that every command from him is a call to trust in his promises and provisions, culminating in his greatest provision, the joy and delight that come from experiencing the transforming effect of his personal presence. For this reason, although God’s provisions and promises are all undeserved as unconditional gifts of grace, they are at the same time conditional upon the obedience that comes from faith (Rom. 1:5, 15:18, 16:26).

For as Paul warned the Corinthians, “Do you knot know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?” (1Cor. 6:9). We are saved “by grace… through faith” as the “gift of God,” a gift that includes being re-created in Christ Jesus in order that we might do “good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” (Eph. 2:8-10). The necessity of obedience to God’s commands, as the expression of faith in God’s promises, is therefore not works righteousness, since both the promises of God and the power to trust them are gifts of God’s unmerited, saving grace. IN OTHER WORDS, God gives what he demands, and we he demands is the obedience that flows from faith (Rom. 1:5, 16:26).

Persistent disobedience, without concern for repentance, is the life of unbelief. God’s wrath is meted out on all who dishonor God by a hardened refusal to acknowledge his provisions and trust in his promises (Rom. 1:18-21), which shows itself in an inability to obey and callousness toward his commands.

This is a very well worded post by a calvinist who has been educated to the point of confusion.

This type of discussion is most interesting to me, but, unless someone can present a clear, understandable, scriptural case for SOMETHING, I will stick with this:

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[EdSutton]

I don't know if you are referring to me or what, but if so then state what I misquoted please. Also, I see you misquoted yourself at the bottom of this page so what goes around comes around.

Also Ed;
As a whole nation God did Give the gift of repentance so that they could repent if they chose. Before hand they were aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, without God and having no Hope in the world but gave Gave them the gift of repentance so they too could be saved.


Act 11:18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Brother Bob, I never said anything about you misquoting anything, I don't think. Let me check! Nope, it's not there. In fact, I did not recently say anything about anyone misquoting anything, as far as I can tell.
And I could not have "misquoted yourself", for as far as I can tell, I made no quotes, other than the 'made up phrase' about "helpin' God out". I did cite some "quotes" I've heard over the years, that I referred to as "'religious speak'". Perhaps I did use, in a less than clear way, a collective "WE" (for the church, as a whole) near the beginning of the post. If that confused you ar anyone else, I apologize.

So, if you please, would you explain to me how I could have possibly misquoted myself? And I'm not trying to play 'dense' as another recently accused me of. Obviously, if I am, in fact, 'dense', it ain't 'cause I'm playing at it.
As to your reference to Acts 11:48, I said something about the 'difference' between "grant" and "give" in post #273, the one just above your response. That might help explain what I was trying to get across.

Finally, I do not hesitate to call someone's hand when using 'church speak' or 'religious speak'. For I see less than no need to 'help God out' in His terminology, and wording. And I do call someone's hand on it. For example, when someone uses another oft repeated phrase of "really and truly saved", or "genuinely saved", I' will always ask if that is somehow different from "saved". One of those three word or words in quotation marks is found in Scripture; two are not. Wanna' guess which two aren't found there? How about another example or two? "Really and truly believe"; "genuinely believe"; "believe"; "believe not"- four phrases. Guess which two are never found in Scripture?

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Tell me J. Jump; Why do you resent me so much? Also, I am sure that you are smart enough to know that among every gathering they had and we have there are unsaved among us. You do acknowledge that don't you?

I'm not J.Jump, but will use this opening to say that I don't 'resent' any individuals, per se. But personally, I do "highly resent" 'religious speak'

No Ed; I think you had a typo or something in one of your posts. I only ask because you used my return posts in one of your to make a statement about misquotes and I don't care just wanted to know what I had misquoted.
It is all just a misunderstanding, forgive?

 

[EdSutton]

No Ed; I think you had a typo or something in one of your posts. I only ask because you used my return posts in one of your to make a statement about misquotes and I don't care just wanted to know what I had misquoted.
It is all just a misunderstanding, forgive?

If you request, I will 'forgive', even though there is really nothing to forgive.

And I wasn't 'resenting' anything you or anyone else may have said, save the use of 'church speak' by any and all. I do wish that stuff would go the way of Paul's epistle to the Laodecians, and be forever lost! I did have a typo in a post that I replied to Tom Butler, I think it was, on and did later correct it, when it was pointed out.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Getting back to the original poster's question, it seems that by and large, the 'grace crowd' sees Ananias and Saphirra as saved individuals who lost their reward and/or were taken home by God for this; while the "Lordship salvation" group, the "Calvinist" gang, and the "Arminian" bunch all see them as either never saved, or they lost it somewhere along the line.
For about the umpteenth time, there is no real difference in these last three positions. For the last three all have an effective modus operandi of 'saved and yet unsure'.

Ed

 

[James_Newman]

I don't understand why the C and A guys get into such heated arguments over whether you lost your salvation or you never had it to begin with.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well the A guys would like to feel that if they never had it then they would still have a chance to be saved. Where if they had tasted of the good fruits of the Lord and then were to fall there would be no other sacrifice made for them. So we like to say or hope they never had it to start with. I let the C answer for themselves.
(disclaimer) I am speaking for myself and not all A's!!!!!

 

[James_Newman]

Well the A guys would like to feel that if they never had it then they would still have a chance to be saved. Where if they had tasted of the good fruits of the Lord and then were to fall there would be no other sacrifice made for them. So we like to say or hope they never had it to start with. I let the C answer for themselves.
(disclaimer) I am speaking for myself and not all A's!!!!!

Man, I can't even tell the difference anymore. I took you for a C! :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

No Way!!!!!!!!!!

 

[James_Newman]

All right, I have to tear myself away from the computer. Friday night we go street preaching in Ft Worth, or as some like to call it, yelling at sinners. God bless you guys, have a good weekend.

 

[James_Newman]

No Way!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I had you mixed up with BP\T for a minute, I would have figured it out eventually.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Man, I can't even tell the difference anymore. I took you for a C! :laugh:

I am a "C"
I am a "C-H"
I am a "C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N" . . . .

 

[LeBuick]

No Way!!!!!!!!!!

Hey buddy, let me be the first to congrats on the 5K post club... :thumbsup:

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks, I feel sick :laugh: :laugh: :BangHead:

Hey, I hit the 5000 club.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

This is not a C&A issue, as much as this is a Lordship and Sufficiency of Christ issue. As much as I may believe in the doctrines of grace, I do not think it is fair that some of you here would try and dismiss my thoughts as merely Calvinistic. I am pretty sure there are some Arminians on here, look no further than Bro. Bob, who think very highly of the Lordship and Sufficiency of Christ.

My thoughts are based on a three fold structure.

God's unconditional act of redemption to establish the covenant relationship (the indicative provisions and promises of the covenant, given as an act of grace in the past)

which leads to

the covenantal stipulations or 'conditions' upon which the covenant relationship is maintained (the imperatives of the covenant to be kept in the present)

which leads to

the fulfillment of the covenant promises of the covenant (the consummation of the covenant promises or curses, to be imparted in the future)

God judges according to our works because the expression of our having been forgiven, justified, and sealed in the Spirit is the growing life of the obedience of faith that flows from the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Our obedience demonstrates publicly the validity of God's justifying act and saving actions on our behalf. All this is from God. The fruit in our lives is the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Our obedience demonstrates publicly the validity of God's justifying act and saving actions on our behalf.

Our obedience only demonstrates that we are obedient.

Why do ya'll go mystical on obedience. God's for us, while we were yet sinners, is all the validity God's "justifying act" needs.

lacy

 

[Brother Bob]

If it were not for the obedience of one man we would all still be lost.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.