And Now, the Antichrist!

[agedman]

Exactly. When Christ comes, He will need nothing more than “the brightness of His coming” to destroy the Antichrist and his works (2 Thess. 2:8). Antichrist will be condemned to the Lake of Fire forever, along with his false prophet, and Satan who empowered him (Rev. 19:20).

Whoa!

Not so fast, John.

The time of the return of Christ certainly destroys the Anti-Christ and the false prophet, but not Satan.

He is held captive for that millennium, released, causes another uprising, then he is cast into the lake of fire.

Of course, this is probably to be understood in your post, but for those who read casually out of interest, I thought I would startle them into reading more closely.

 

[John of Japan]

Whoa!

Not so fast, John.

The time of the return of Christ certainly destroys the Anti-Christ and the false prophet, but not Satan.

He is held captive for that millennium, released, causes another uprising, then he is cast into the lake of fire.

Of course, this is probably to be understood in your post, but for those who read casually out of interest, I thought I would startle them into reading more closely.

Well, yes, I was a little careless in my phraseology. I agree with your understanding here. Satan will be in the bottomless pit for 1000 years (Rev. 20:2-3). Some identify the bottomless pit with the lake of fire. Others identify it with their teenagers' stomachs.

 

[John of Japan]

Just a little more about 666. There have been many suggestions down through the centuries based not only on Hebrew gematria, but on Greek or Roman numbers. John Walvoord says, "Speculation continues ad infinitum using the letter equivalents for numbers in Hebrew, Greek, or Roman numerals. The very variety of the suggestions, however, ...leaves serious question as to all of these imaginative explanations" (The Revelation of Jesus Christ, p. 210

 

[agedman]

Perhaps we should start a thread on the bottomless pit.

I know that when I bottomed out in what I thought was a bottomless pit of despair, my Lord was there with me.

1
I’m pressing on the upward way,
New heights I’m gaining every day;
Still praying as I onward bound,
“Lord, plant my feet on higher ground.”
Lord, lift me up, and let me stand
By faith on Canaan’s tableland;
A higher plane than I have found,
Lord, plant my feet on higher ground.
2
My heart has no desire to stay
Where doubts arise and fears dismay;
Though some may dwell where these abound,
My prayer, my aim, is higher ground.
3
I want to live above the world,
Though Satan’s darts at me are hurled;
For faith has caught the joyful sound,
The song of saints on higher ground.
4
I want to scale the utmost height
And catch a gleam of glory bright;
But still I’ll pray till rest I’ve found,
“Lord, lead me on to higher ground.”
(Johnson Oatman Jr. - also wrote, "There's Not a Friend Like the Lowly Jesus," and "When Upon Life's Billows You Are Temptest Tossed")​

 

[Covenanter]

Hi folk - thanks John for an interesting topic.

I've been aware of this thread & seen a few posts, & now it's a bit late to join it, but here goes ....

I think there are three time periods relevant -

1. The time prior to the destruction:
John, like Paul in 2 Thes. 2, & Peter in 2 Peter 3, was warning people of his own generation - this generation - to watch out for antichrists who were trying to gather support for their rebellion/apostasy leading up to AD 70.
Those antichrists, & the antichrist/man of sin perished.

2. Throughout the Gospel age:
But all these things are written for general instruction for the church down the ages. There have been plenty of antichrists, rising up in power, & perishing. Many have been named in the thread.
Perhaps the most dangerous of these was Constantine who, with the connivance of the Bishops "Christianised" the Empire, so that church & state became one entity with two arms, two swords - word & steel, to control the world.
True Christians, Donatist, Anabaptists, & others maintained their witness as a persecuted minority.
Rome fell, but the antichristian RC church retained its authority by associating with whoever had military power.
And the Reformers continued with that church-state association & continued to persecute the Anabaptists & other non-conformists.

3. At the end of time:
How will living Christians recognise him? That is what this thread is all about. There have been many antichrists in history, & they have been identified at the time. I think, though, none fit the prophetic description - but will HE? Not if he died in AD 70 & we are looking for powerful & evil men who are antichrist, but not THE antichrist.
I think the focus on the nation of Israel in the land promised to Abram could be significant, but I consider the restoration prophecies were fulfilled by Christ & the many thousands of Israelites who formed the church after Pentecost. IMO the present nation is not relevant to prophecy.
Christians should always be aware of antichrists, but I do not consider the futurists who have gained the popularity over the last 70 years are better at guessing than the rest of us.

So, what did Jesus say?

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
32 ‘But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: he leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

35 ‘Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back – whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the cock crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: “Watch!”’​

 

[agedman]

Hi folk - thanks John for an interesting topic.

I've been aware of this thread & seen a few posts, & now it's a bit late to join it, but here goes ....

I think there are three time periods relevant -

1. The time prior to the destruction:
John, like Paul in 2 Thes. 2, & Peter in 2 Peter 3, was warning people of his own generation - this generation - to watch out for antichrists who were trying to gather support for their rebellion/apostasy leading up to AD 70.
Those antichrists, & the antichrist/man of sin perished.

2. Throughout the Gospel age:
But all these things are written for general instruction for the church down the ages. There have been plenty of antichrists, rising up in power, & perishing. Many have been named in the thread.
Perhaps the most dangerous of these was Constantine who, with the connivance of the Bishops "Christianised" the Empire, so that church & state became one entity with two arms, two swords - word & steel, to control the world.
True Christians, Donatist, Anabaptists, & others maintained their witness as a persecuted minority.
Rome fell, but the antichristian RC church retained its authority by associating with whoever had military power.
And the Reformers continued with that church-state association & continued to persecute the Anabaptists & other non-conformists.

3. At the end of time:
How will living Christians recognise him? That is what this thread is all about. There have been many antichrists in history, & they have been identified at the time. I think, though, none fit the prophetic description - but will HE? Not if he died in AD 70 & we are looking for powerful & evil men who are antichrist, but not THE antichrist.
I think the focus on the nation of Israel in the land promised to Abram could be significant, but I consider the restoration prophecies were fulfilled by Christ & the many thousands of Israelites who formed the church after Pentecost. IMO the present nation is not relevant to prophecy.
Christians should always be aware of antichrists, but I do not consider the futurists who have gained the popularity over the last 70 years are better at guessing than the rest of us.

So, what did Jesus say?

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
32 ‘But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: he leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

35 ‘Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back – whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the cock crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: “Watch!”’​

You did good until you place Israel (the nation) as unimportant in the scheme. For the scripture prophecy and NT statements validate that a future nation of Jews will occupy and will be redeemed.

IF one was to hold to the thinking that after 70AD nothing concerning them was prophetic, then ONLY 144,000 Jews would EVER be saved, specific to each tribe, and everyone of them martyrs. All occurring before 70A.

Poor Hyman Appelman would have been left out. Hyman Appelman - Southern Baptist Evangelists

 

[Covenanter]

You did good until you place Israel (the nation) as unimportant in the scheme. For the scripture prophecy and NT statements validate that a future nation of Jews will occupy and will be redeemed.

IF one was to hold to the thinking that after 70AD nothing concerning them was prophetic, then ONLY 144,000 Jews would EVER be saved, specific to each tribe, and everyone of them martyrs. All occurring before 70A.

Poor Hyman Appelman would have been left out. Hyman Appelman - Southern Baptist Evangelists

I did write "I think the focus on the nation of Israel in the land promised to Abram could be significant, ...."

The Gospel has been open to all nations, all peoples regardless of ethnicity, including of course Jews, since Pentecost.

But I don't think this is the thread for that discussion.

 

[agedman]

I did write "I think the focus on the nation of Israel in the land promised to Abram could be significant, ...."

The Gospel has been open to all nations, all peoples regardless of ethnicity, including of course Jews, since Pentecost.

But I don't think this is the thread for that discussion.

This is true (both).

I just didn't want the misconception that the prophetic statements concerning the gathering of Israel (nation) as assigned to insignificant from the standpoint that some require nothing from the Jews nor do they see the evidence of more prophetic statements concerning the nation of Israel in the Scriptures.

 

[John of Japan]

I have to add just one more post about 666. I agree with Dr. Paige Patterson about its significance: "The repetition of the ‘six’ in its trifold form 666 is clearly intended to underscore the intrinsic evil bound up in this individual.” (Paige Patterson, Revelation, vol. 39 in The New American Commentary. B & H Publishing Group, 2012, 282.)

 

[John of Japan]

I have to leave in a little while, and we don't have wifi at home, so the thread may end over the weekend without me. So just one more post (maybe).

Some consider Antiochius IV Epiphanes, who defiled the Jewish Temple, sacrificing an unclean animal (perhaps a pig) on the altar, to be a type of the final Antichrist. The Jews nicknamed Antiochus IV "The Madman." This event ignited the Maccabean rebellion, and eventually an independent Israel.

I love the way Paul Lee Tan puts it: “The madman Antiochus Epiphanes typifies the antichrist (Dan. 11), who will frolick in the tribulational scene in person. The unfolding of the type into the antitype can be from the literal to the literal—not necessarily from the literal to the non-literal.” (The Interpretation of Prophecy. Dallas: Bible Communications, Inc., 1974, p. 172.)

 

[Covenanter]

I have to add just one more post about 666. I agree with Dr. Paige Patterson about its significance: "The repetition of the ‘six’ in its trifold form 666 is clearly intended to underscore the intrinsic evil bound up in this individual.” (Paige Patterson, Revelation, vol. 39 in The New American Commentary. B & H Publishing Group, 2012, 282.)

Irenaeus' famous quote, questionably used to assign a late date to John's visions, is pertinent:

“We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision.

For [it or he] was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.”

– Saint Irenaeus, Adversus haereses 5, 30, 3
​

Long ago it was suggested to me that with all those sevens in Revelation relating to the activities of God, that 666 refers to man trying to be like God. But of course failing at every attempt, even though he may deceive many.

But people will go on speculating ..... meanwhile, watch & pray.

 

[prophecy70]

Well, duh, of course Messiah means "anointed one" in Daniel. That is also what the Greek Christos (Christ) means. So in a word, you accept a "Jews for Judaism" interpretation over that of every single Christian interpreter of Daniel down through the ages. That's very surprising, and even sad.

I said a lot about it. So? Are you aware of polysemy in the term? (A linguistic term for multiple meanings in a word.)

Apparently, if we follow your Jewish interpreters and you, "messiah" never means our blessed Savior Jesus Christ, in spite of all of the Christian interpreters of all the ages.

PS added in: Just a quick look shows that these Hebrew interpreters are conflating the verbal and the proper noun usages of the word. Just sayin'. I guess it suits their purposes to do that, but it's hardly honest.

I am not denying what you saying here.

and Im not saying it even if it meant anointed one, it doesn't mean Jesus.

In other Hebrew websites It does say the another one here Is Jesus.

The point I was trying to make is they make it, is that Jewish rabbis see this passage as the destruction of Jerusalem not some future antichrist.

I think adding an antichrist in here is a gross interpretation.

 

[prophecy70]

I have not figured you out yet. To my knowledge, this is the first time you've self-identified as a preterist. By the same token, I don't think you have figured out preterism yet.

Because I don't believe Jesus came spiritually but just in judgment?

 

[prophecy70]

The website you gave doesn't exist. You probably meant JEWS FOR JUDAISM keeps Jews Jewish by teaching Jews Judaism.

Are you aware that Jews for Judaism was established to keep Jews from becoming Christians? So everything on their website is with that agenda. They write on their home page, "Jews for Judaism responds to the threat of Christian missionary groups...."

So, in your agreement with their interpretation, even with your denial as to spiritual things, you are aligning yourself with the enemies of Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

My bad.

http://jewsforjudaism.org

Oh goodness, Im not aligning my self with anything.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Has anyone else heard the speculation that Antichrist will lead the UN (Tim LaHaye)?

 

[agedman]

Has anyone else heard the speculation that Antichrist will lead the UN (Tim LaHaye)?

yes,

No doubt that person will have much sway across the world, but it is unknown if the UN will remain in existence and supported by the US, or if some regrouping will happen when the US is no longer a viable nation.

 

[John of Japan]

Has anyone else heard the speculation that Antichrist will lead the UN (Tim LaHaye)?

I stick to what Scripture says. I don't think such speculation about Antichrist's identity and actions is useful.

 

[agedman]

I stick to what Scripture says. I don't think such speculation about Antichrist's identity and actions is useful.

Hey proffessor,

You spending time in the office, today?

 

[John of Japan]

Because I don't believe Jesus came spiritually but just in judgment?

No, because you have been vague about your beliefs since coming on the BB.

 

[John of Japan]

Hey proffessor,

You spending time in the office, today?

Nah, just a few minutes before our Christmas concert begins. Have to go now.