And The Pulpits Are Silent

[saturneptune]

If you cannot produce a single Scripture that says the Holy Spirit will give us guidance on every single decision we ever make, then why should I believe you? I only believe the Bible. The bible says He will guide us into all Truth, but some decisions are not about "Truth".

For instance, the Holy Spirit did not guide me in whether I was to have the Caesar Salad or the House Salad with my meal last night. That was *my* choice. I may have felt "peace" about my decision, but that does not mean I can blame God for guiding me in one direction or another.

You should not attribute opinions to God unless He has made it clear what his opinion on the matter is. And God has not made clear that it is right to sacrifice thousands of innocent Iraqi lives in order to avenge or protect thousands of other innocent Iraqi lives. He has not made that any more clear then He has made clear what salad I should choose. There are questions that occur in life in which *we* must choose the answer... prayerfully asking for wisdom, but deciding for ourselves nonetheless in the end.

God has only one opinion on the Iraq war... and He has not told us what it is. Neither Christians who feel it is right nor Christians who feel it is wrong can say what *God's* opinion is. No one knows but God, unless we have a prophet amongst us. And no pastor, or baptistboard poster should pretend to be a prophet... people used to get killed in the Old Testament for that kind of thing.

First of all, you should learn to read a post before responding and talk about the points being made. John 16:13, He will guide you into all truth, not the times of truth you pick and choose, but all truth.

This thread is not an agenda about the war in Iraq. Since posters did not decide whether to go to war or not, and Bush did, it is not relevant to the discussion. God works His will, and however He uses the Iraq war is His business, not yours or mine.

His direction is quite clear through is Spirit if one listens. Asking in prayer in guidance from the Holy Spirit. Maybe you are not listening. Your comparison of ordering a Caesar salad to choosing to go to war is ridiculous, as it lacks common sense, and is not worth commenting about.

No one has claimed to be a prophet. If you choose your own direction in your life, that is your problem.

 

[jsn9333]

First of all, you should learn to read a post before responding and talk about the points being made. John 16:13, He will guide you into all truth, not the times of truth you pick and choose, but all truth.

This thread is not an agenda about the war in Iraq. Since posters did not decide whether to go to war or not, and Bush did, it is not relevant to the discussion. God works His will, and however He uses the Iraq war is His business, not yours or mine.

His direction is quite clear through is Spirit if one listens. Asking in prayer in guidance from the Holy Spirit. Maybe you are not listening. Your comparison of ordering a Caesar salad to choosing to go to war is ridiculous, as it lacks common sense, and is not worth commenting about.

No one has claimed to be a prophet. If you choose your own direction in your life, that is your problem.

It is easy to say a position is "not worth comment". It is harder to actually show it to be wrong. You have taken the easier road.

I can't blame you for wanting to avoid the topic though... because you're now having to defend the ridiculous position that the Holy Spirit offered me guidance last night as to whether I should get the Caesar or Dinner Salad and I had to choose whether or not to accept that guidance. Give me a break!

What AJ thinks about the war in Iraq is relevant only because he (and other pastors) has said *God* guided America into the war. And they have no way to prove it.

I'm not comparing the Iraq war to a Salad choice as far as *importance*. Rather, I'm giving the Salad choice as a more simple example of times when the Holy Spirit does not guide because there is no "truth" issue involved. Yes, it is an oversimplification... but it is there to make a point.

The point is this. There exists questions to which the Bible does not speak clearly. Therefore there is no Truth to guide us toward specifically. Salad choice is one... but there are more complex questions and more important questions which, nonetheless, the Bible does not specifically tell us how to answer. The Bible gives no clear answer to the question of whether or not it is right to take actions which will probably sacrifice one *unwilling* innocent live in order to save another innocent life. Hence, AJ does not have any more right to say God guided America into the war then I have to say God did not do it. We could argue all day about which of us has more "peace" about his side and "feels" more guided... but at the end of the day there is no "Truth" on this matter that has been declared clearly by God.

The fact is, neither AJ nor the many pastors who agree with him have any basis to say God guided America into Iraq. We know Bush guided us there; we don't know if God did. They should not be telling us what God's opinion is on unclear matters unless they know it for sure (meaning it is written in the Bible or they are prophets).

 

[ajg1959]

It is easy to say a position is "not worth comment". It is harder to actually show it to be wrong. You have taken the easier road.

I can't blame you for wanting to avoid the topic though... because you're now having to defend the ridiculous position that the Holy Spirit offered me guidance last night as to whether I should get the Caesar or Dinner Salad and I had to choose whether or not to accept that guidance. Give me a break!

What AJ thinks about the war in Iraq is relevant only because he (and other pastors) has said *God* guided America into the war. And they have no way to prove it.

I'm not comparing the Iraq war to a Salad choice as far as *importance*. Rather, I'm giving the Salad choice as a more simple example of times when the Holy Spirit does not guide because there is no "truth" issue involved. Yes, it is an oversimplification... but it is there to make a point.

The point is this. There exists questions to which the Bible does not speak clearly. Therefore there is no Truth to guide us toward specifically. Salad choice is one... but there are more complex questions and more important questions which, nonetheless, the Bible does not specifically tell us how to answer. The Bible gives no clear answer to the question of whether or not it is right to take actions which will probably sacrifice one *unwilling* innocent live in order to save another innocent life. Hence, AJ does not have any more right to say God guided America into the war then I have to say God did not do it. We could argue all day about which of us has more "peace" about his side and "feels" more guided... but at the end of the day there is no "Truth" on this matter that has been declared clearly by God.

The fact is, neither AJ nor the many pastors who agree with him have any basis to say God guided America into Iraq. We know Bush guided us there; we don't know if God did. They should not be telling us what God's opinion is on unclear matters unless they know it for sure (meaning it is written in the Bible or they are prophets).

You still have missed the point,

The Bible doenst addreess heroin, or embezellment from savings and loan association or securites fraud....

God sent the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus promised to guide us. He is supposed to be our daily guidance, even when there is not a scripture to confirm our immediate need.

If the Bible was all we needed, then why did God send the Holy Spirit? What is His purpose?

I was going to say more, but all I can say to you is please, listen to "the inner voice", the Holy Spirit.

AJ

 

[saturneptune]

You still have missed the point,

The Bible doenst addreess heroin, or embezellment from savings and loan association or securites fraud....

God sent the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus promised to guide us. He is supposed to be our daily guidance, even when there is not a scripture to confirm our immediate need.

If the Bible was all we needed, then why did God send the Holy Spirit? What is His purpose?

I was going to say more, but all I can say to you is please, listen to "the inner voice", the Holy Spirit.

AJ

Good post and well said. You got the point across better than me.

 

[JustChristian]

But is being a humanitarian the same as being humanistic?

I think they are two far different issues.

I searched but I couldn't find anywhere he used the word humanistic. You did but he didn't. He described humanitarian goals which many Christians seem not to be their concern.

 

[ajg1959]

I searched but I couldn't find anywhere he used the word humanistic. You did but he didn't. He described humanitarian goals which many Christians seem not to be their concern.

Thats because you didnt look

I was responding to post #6 (humanitarian), who was responding to post #5 which was talking about humanism......it was evident to me that #6 didnt know the difference between humanism and humantarian......

Read it again

AJ

 

[ajg1959]

I searched but I couldn't find anywhere he used the word humanistic. You did but he didn't. He described humanitarian goals which many Christians seem not to be their concern.

Is this all you have to do all day? Is to look for misquotes or mistakes?

AJ

 

[jsn9333]

You still have missed the point,

The Bible doenst addreess heroin, or embezellment from savings and loan association or securites fraud....

God sent the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus promised to guide us. He is supposed to be our daily guidance, even when there is not a scripture to confirm our immediate need.

If the Bible was all we needed, then why did God send the Holy Spirit? What is His purpose?

I was going to say more, but all I can say to you is please, listen to "the inner voice", the Holy Spirit.

AJ

The fact is, if your special "inner voice" is telling you God believes that the Iraq war the right decision, and if the Bible is not clear on that point, and if other Spirit-filled, Spirit-led Christians prayerfully disagree and think that God has not spoken clearly about whether or not the war was wise... then you should check to see if your special "inner voice" is perhaps your own. Chances are, it is.

The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to comfort and to guide us into all truth, which is found in the Scriptures. He comforts us and helps us rightly divide the Word. What you're talking about here is the question of whether or not it is wise or right to sacrifice an unwilling, innocent live to save or avenge the death of another. The Bible does not speak to that topic clearly.

When it comes down to it, you are uncomfortable with the notion that you might have to pic the color of the blinds in your home without guidance from Above. You're even more uncomfortable with, and in fact are apparently unable to deal with, the notion that perhaps the President used his own fallible judgment in starting a war that has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Well, sorry... but that is life. Bush made a judgment call... deal with it. Pastor's need not pretend the know God's opinion on every matter that has ever occurred. There are some things God only knows... otherwise we would all be God.

That being said, the Bible does talk very clearly about stealing, taking something that belongs to another (embezzlement), and lying (fraud). So you can take comfort in that. The Bible speaks to a great many important topics form which we can be guided in our lives. And the Spirit helps you to understand them! The Word even approaches the topic of heroin, though less directly. Heroin is one of the most addictive substances known to man. The Scriptures strongly condemn addiction and being controlled by things. So the Bible does offer fairly clear guidance on the topic of recreational heroin use. Nonetheless, I'm sorry to report to you, the Scriptures are not as black letter clear on the topic as they are with stealing and lying. *You*, yes you, ultimately will have to decide whether or not to take the drug if a doctor ever prescribes it to you (in the form of morphine or Oxycotin).

 

[saturneptune]

The fact is, if your special "inner voice" is telling you God believes that the Iraq war the right decision, and if the Bible is not clear on that point, and if other Spirit-filled, Spirit-led Christians prayerfully disagree and think that God has not spoken clearly about whether or not the war was wise... then you should check to see if your special "inner voice" is perhaps your own. Chances are, it is.

The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to comfort and to guide us into all truth, which is found in the Scriptures. He comforts us and helps us rightly divide the Word. What you're talking about here is the question of whether or not it is wise or right to sacrifice an unwilling, innocent live to save or avenge the death of another. The Bible does not speak to that topic clearly.

When it comes down to it, you are uncomfortable with the notion that you might have to pic the color of the blinds in your home without guidance from Above. You're even more uncomfortable with, and in fact are apparently unable to deal with, the notion that perhaps the President used his own fallible judgment in starting a war that has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Well, sorry... but that is life. Bush made a judgment call... deal with it. Pastor's need not pretend the know God's opinion on every matter that has ever occurred. There are some things God only knows... otherwise we would all be God.

That being said, the Bible does talk very clearly about stealing, taking something that belongs to another (embezzlement), and lying (fraud). So you can take comfort in that. The Bible speaks to a great many important topics form which we can be guided in our lives. And the Spirit helps you to understand them! The Word even approaches the topic of heroin, though less directly. Heroin is one of the most addictive substances known to man. The Scriptures strongly condemn addiction and being controlled by things. So the Bible does offer fairly clear guidance on the topic of recreational heroin use. Nonetheless, I'm sorry to report to you, the Scriptures are not as black letter clear on the topic as they are with stealing and lying. *You*, yes you, ultimately will have to decide whether or not to take the drug if a doctor ever prescribes it to you (in the form of morphine or Oxycotin).

Why don't you worry more about the Holy Spirit in your life and quit worrying about how Bush decided to invade Iraq? There is nothing you can do about it but vote or join the Army.

If "you" are the one guiding your life, its time to look again.

 

[jsn9333]

Why don't you worry more about the Holy Spirit in your life and quit worrying about how Bush decided to invade Iraq? There is nothing you can do about it but vote or join the Army.

If "you" are the one guiding your life, its time to look again.

[Name calling removed.]

Seriously though, perhaps you should take your own advice and worry more about the Holy Spirit in your life then in mine. After all, you're the one who decided to join in on this part of discussion between AJ and I about the common claim made by conservative pastors and other Christians that the Holy Spirit directed Bush to invade Iraq. If it upsets you so much to read the discussions of these ideas as they relate to pastoral silence, then I have a novel idea: find another thread to read!

 

[Sopranette]

Name calling...the last resort.

love,

Sopranette

 

[jsn9333]

Name calling...the last resort.

love,

Sopranette

Name calling?! What are you referring t... oh, wait... I think I see what you're talki... Oh my, Sopranette, that is so [personal attack removed] of you! ;-)

Hessitations 15:6 - Thou shalt not use the name of any of the 9 planets in a joke.

 

[Bible-boy]

Name calling?! What are you referring t... oh, wait... I think I see what you're talki... Oh my, Sopranette, that is so [personal attack removed] of you! ;-)

Hessitations 15:6 - Thou shalt not use the name of any of the 9 planets in a joke.

Feel free to discuss the issues raised in the thread, but leave off with the attacking of the person holding the opposing view (this includes making a "joke" out of your fellow poster's screen names). I suggest you re-read the BB Posting Rules and the User Agreement to avoid problems like this in the future.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-boy,
Forum Moderator

 

[jsn9333]

Feel free to discuss the issues raised in the thread, but leave off with the attacking of the person holding the opposing view (this includes making a "joke" out of your fellow poster's screen names). I suggest you re-read the BB Posting Rules and the User Agreement to avoid problems like this in the future.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-boy,
Forum Moderator

The person whose name I joked about (saturneptune) told me she has not been offended by anything I've said.... so I'm not sure where the "attack" was. I certainly didn't intend it as an attack. I can only guess that Sopranette felt attacked by the fact that she had to witness one of my groaners. Knowing how bad I am at telling jokes, I suppose I can't blame her.

I will not subject Sopranette to any more bad jokes, especially if it is about one of the planets. The solar system is so unfunny.

 

[righteousdude2]

Like it or not, This is the TRUTH!

By Coach Dave Daubenmire​

March 6, 2008​

NewsWithViews.com

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge. Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? Jeremiah 5:26-31 [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Despite what the political parties would like you to believe, the problem in America is not the politicians, it is the pulpits. I hate to break the news to you, but most of America’s pulpits are filled with cowardly men. They are a shame to the Christ they claim to serve. [/FONT]


http://www.newswithviews.com/Daubenmire/dave106.htm

The pulpits are filled with way too many men [and women] who are trying to be politically correct, which means they are simply "tickling the ears" of the multitude.

Amen to your words of admonishment. Unless the church wake up, and wake up soon, this nation will be little more than a third world wanna be, living on memories of what once was.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[jsn9333]

The pulpits are filled with way too many men [and women] who are trying to be politically correct, which means they are simply "tickling the ears" of the multitude.

Amen to your words of admonishment. Unless the church wake up, and wake up soon, this nation will be little more than a third world wanna be, living on memories of what once was.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

I'll go ahead and disagree with that.

Certainly the Church will suffer as long as pastors tickle the ears of their congregations and simply infuse Christ into to whatever political views they think the congregations hold (both the right and the left are guilty of doing this by the way).

But I disagree that America necessarily will suffer because of it. America is great because it was set up on the assumption that people in general (whether in government or in the church) are sinful and make mistakes. America was set up with checks and balances to try to curb the effects of all that. As long as those checks and balances remain in tact, that is the best we can hope for. Sure, many of the founding fathers were believers, but they set up the system under the idea the nation depends on checks and balances to succeed and avoid tyranny, not the idea the church needs to be strong and holy to succeed.

So as far as a nation's government is concerned, checks and balances play more of a vital role in the survival of the country then a strong church. History has shown that even if the church gets too powerful it can destroy a country (by abolishing the religious freedoms who may disagree with it, and since corruption tends to seep into the heart of the powerful... even those in the church).

I'm not saying we need not worry about the church. I'm saying we need to worry about the church for the *church's* sake, not for America's sake or the sake of politics in general.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Certainly the Church will suffer as long as pastors tickle the ears of their congregations and simply infuse Christ into to whatever political views they think the congregations hold (both the right and the left are guilty of doing this by the way).

But I disagree that America necessarily will suffer because of it. America is great because it was set up on the assumption that people in general (whether in government or in the church) are sinful and make mistakes. America was set up with checks and balances to try to curb the effects of all that. As long as those checks and balances remain in tact, that is the best we can hope for. Sure, many of the founding fathers were believers, but they set up the system under the idea the nation depends on checks and balances to succeed and avoid tyranny, not the idea the church needs to be strong and holy to succeed.

The checks and balances are not working well in this country, the way I see it. The church has lost its impact in our culture for the most part. I'm told a few times each week that science has proven the Bible wrong which shows the entire book is wrong. I'm ask saved from what and so on, our culture has been removed or past by in so much of the country as well as in so many churches. As a child I would say 80% of the folks went to a church or their place of worship at least once a month or more. The city I live in maybe 25% go to a church or a place of worship a month and they don't want to hear about God.
I can't believe we have police in schools, people not showing respect to one another in school or at work. A country is only as strong as the morals they live by and all laws are moral, just which ones are we going to write as law. The only laws that can be enforced are the ones people will obey. Good sound churches will have a lot of sound Christians which will have a good foundation to build upon.

 

[2serve]

wow! I mean WOW!!!
If this isn't an Independant, Fundamental, PreMillinial, Tempermantal, Judgemental, KJV Bible Thumpin Baptist Wednsday night Business Meeting then I've never been to one.
Noone is still on the original subject, and do you suppose that we can assume that feelings run deep on the subject of the war and President Bush.

I find it interesting that in ten pages of postings about whether or not the pulpits are silent, only three or four postings reference scripture, and most of that out of context.

I do believe that for the most part the pulpits of America are silent and that the rather embarassing lack of scripture in your postings is a huge testament of that fact.

So allow me.

1.) Gods Word says that "The poor ye have with you always" as Jesus himself chastized Judas for railing on Mary when she annointed Jesus' feet rather than feeding the poor
2.) Gods Word says " If any would not work neither should he eat"
Nothing wrong with helping people IF they are willing to help themselves
3.) Most all of you need to go back to the Old Testament and get a good understanding of how, when and why God him self sent his children to war.

That would end 90% of your bickering in this thread.

Now then!
It is unfortunate that most of the pulpits in America are very, very liberal today.
And by liberal I mean that they don't hold to basic tenants of The Word Of God (in context) yet again as wittnessed by the previous postings on this thread.

And unfortunatly a large percentage of ones who aren't are wraped up in their own agenda.

The Good news is that i have the answer to the problem.

Stop your meaningless bickering and stick your face in the Bible and Pray that God would teach you to Love others even if you don't like them.


Ok so I'll be waiting on the stones:tonofbricks:

 

[Sopranette]

Apparently you have already cast the first stone.

love,

sopranette

 

[gb93433]

It is unfortunate that most of the pulpits in America are very, very liberal today.And by liberal I mean that they don't hold to basic tenants of The Word Of God (in context) yet again as wittnessed by the previous postings on this thread.

And unfortunatly a large percentage of ones who aren't are wraped up in their own agenda.

The Good news is that i have the answer to the problem.

Once you have read the following websites tell us how you compare.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1906.htm

http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm

"He that never saved a sinner after years of work is not a minister of Christ." -- C. H. Spurgeon