Andersonville Seminary

[Broadus]

Originally posted by Brother Ian:
Broadus,

Let's say you were looking for an Associate Pastor or Minister of Education. Would you, as a pastor, look negatively on the degree from Andersonville? In other words, if you saw it on a resume, would you discard that candidate?

Hi Ian,

Honestly, I would look negatively upon the degree. If I had a large stack of resumes, it would certainly go on the bottom.

One might think that unfair, but a resume introduces the applicant to the employer, if you will. I recognize that an Andersonville degree does not mean necessarily that the candidate is unqualified, but it is something the candidate would have to overcome. The Andersonville degree would certainly not enhance the candidate's standing.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Brother Ian]

Thanks Bill. Unfortunately, the candidate would not be able to overcome it because he's at the bottom of the stack.

 

[Broadus]

That's true, but that's the nature of resumes. Let me add that I would never call a staff member by requesting resumes alone. I would query other pastors and church leaders concerning possible candidates. The quality for which I would look, besides godliness, is being teachable.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Brother Ian:

As I approach retirement, I have been keeping an eye on ministry placement websites. I have found some pretty distubing things. For example, I looked at a church's posting that is looking for a pastor. The qualifications included: five years experience as a senior pastor and a master's degree from an accredited SBC seminary. The church size was 50 people. I'm not saying the Lord won't provide for that church, but I wonder what some churches are thinking. It seems more and more, churches are seeking highly qualified people but are not willing to pay them accordingly. Mind you, I am definitely not entering the ministry to get rich, but you've got to feed the family.

I'm trusting the Lord to provide the right opportunity for me and my family.

So true.

It is amazing how demanding small churches can be. When I went to work for a car dealership where the average salesman made $75,000 plus, it took three five to ten minute interviews on three succcessive days! But apply for a minimum wage job and see how long it takes to get hired!

Churches remind me of the minimum wage job!

 

[Brother Ian]

Originally posted by Broadus:
That's true, but that's the nature of resumes. Let me add that I would never call a staff member by requesting resumes alone. I would query other pastors and church leaders concerning possible candidates. The quality for which I would look, besides godliness, is being teachable.

Blessings,
Bill

Roger that Bill. I know the best chances I have for getting a position is from the personal recommendations of friends in the ministry.

My point was that I wouldn't have gotten a chance with you to get to the next step after the resume.

What credence would you give to my lay leadership and Navy experience?

 

[El_Guero]

Chief,

Probably about as much credence as you gave my analogy

Except that I wrote that analogy in your language. Bill told you that in his language, Andersonville does not communicate very well.

As a leader, your military service is positive. But, even with me, your service might not overcome the fact that you chose Andersonville. And my concern would be your choosing the Andersonville training over obtaining a more practical associate pastor position. Experience would have added value to your time.

I am not certain that Andersonville will add as much as much value as 2 years part time (volunteer if need be) experience as an associate pastor position would have.

 

[Brother Ian]

El Guero,

I hope I didn't come across as being short, because I didn't intend to.

I was approached by my pastor in 1999 recommending that I be ordained. The Lord called me to full time ministry the year before. I have diligently worked in all facets of the church since that time, but I have no title. It would have been great if the church had put me in an Assiciate position even as a volunteer or Director of Missions, etc. just to give me something to put on my resume. I was the Lay Leader while onboard my last submarine. In that capacity I was responsible for all aspects of protestant services onboard. Kind of like being the boat's pastor.

The Director of Church Development was a little disappointed my church had not put me on in a position (even if volunteer). Of course, I spoke with him only recently. Hindsight again. I can't go back in time. Again, this man encouraged me to continue until completion. I sent him my resume and he said it looked good. I asked him to be critical and I believe he would have told me if there were problems. He related how he deals with pastors of all types of educational backgrounds.

Again, I'm sorry if I sounded short in my earlier post.

 

[j_barner2000]

I am currently studying at Andersonville and have found that the instruction is of a good quality. I had previously studied through the Seminary Extension program offered by the SBC. It is also a good program. I served also as youth minister for 2 years and as a pastoral intern. The senior pastor I served under suggested Andersonville and the Extension programs as both solid educational options in the distance format.

Let me give my perspective…

First, you must determine your purpose for studying through a seminary. If your purpose is to obtain credentials, then seek the seminary which will provide the finest credentials. If you are seeking help in studying to show yourself approved, then seek a school which will assist you in this endeavor.

The second consideration is availability. The traditional (classroom) model is likely the best option, if it is feasible. It provides face time and usually some level of mentoring and better evaluation by your instructor. The distance education model has it's advantages and disadvantages. For me, the greatest advantage is availability. The nearest traditional opportunity is approximately 100 miles from the church I serve as pastor. As a bi-vocational pastor, that option is entirely unfeasible. The next advantage is scheduling. You can study when it is most convenient for you. My secular employment as a security guard allows me to study for 4 to 6 hours while at work 6 nights a week. My employer is not only amenable but encourages me to study when I am not making rounds. The largest disadvantage is the lack of face time with the instructors. This means you are responsible to find a suitable mentor and be willing to objectively evaluate your own learning because it is difficult for your instructor to do this for you. Taped lectures or the book format makes it largely impossible for the institution and instructor to tailor the lessons to meet the students' particular needs, which means you will likely need to do more personal study to maximize the benefit of the learning experience.

As far as accreditation goes, I am not sure if that is an important consideration, so I can not comment on it. If you plan to move on to another institution, it can help to ensure the maximum credit that is transferable.

As far as depth of the studies at Andersonville goes, I have found that that is much like my experience in a secular institution in that it really depends on the instructor and amount of contact hours. I would say the same expectation stands in both models, as far as personal study time goes. I spent about 45 to 60 minutes of personal study for each contact hour I received. I have held to the same standard. Due to the limited amount of lecture time involved in any line of instruction, the instructor normally lays a foundation that you are responsible to build upon. As far as exams go, I have throughout my academic experience found that some instructors expect you to memorize and regurgitate the covered material and some expect you to cogitate upon the material and require essays on the material presented to show you actually understand the material and put in personal time to broaden your learning. This has held true with my experience with Ansdersonville.

My assessment of Andersonville, from experience, is that like any educational experience, I am receiving a quality education and a good value for my investment of time and finances. Distance education, no matter the institution, requires the student to have a high commitment in ensuring the success and quality of their own education.

If I am deemed less than desirable by a man or men because of the school I studied through, then I figure it is not God's will for me to minister with them.

 

[El_Guero]

Chief,

I didn't take it as short. I took it as you are running out of time and options. You are hoping that Andersonville will pay off, but in your gut it is beginning to feel like a correspondence course to become a SEAL.

Personally, I like military service. Many of the young men going into the pastorate are too inexperienced. But, that is life.

You have to pray that God has allowed the deck to be stacked against you to place you in the right place at the right time for the correct position in ministry.

Sometimes that takes great faith.

 

[TCassidy]

Not all military people are seals. Nor should they be. But it would be pretty silly to insist that every unassigned boatswains mate attend BUDS school.

Every soldier, sailor, airman, and marine has a specific job, his MOS. Not all train in the same way and not all train for the same job.

The ministry is the same. We each have the ministry God has called us to, and we should each train for that ministry in a way that is conducive to achieving the goal of fulfilling the ministry God has called us to. Contrary to popular opinion, one size does not fit all.

I never attended CPOIC, but Brother Ian probably didn't attend "knife and fork school." That does not mean that Brother Ian is not completely qualified to be a career Chief. Different career paths require different training. As is the military, so also is the ministry.

 

[Broadus]

I don't want to belabor points made. The issue with Andersonville is not essentially "best credentials" versus "best preparation." That's not an either-or. The issue is not residential versus distance education. The issue is with quality and rigor.

Andersonville simply will not measure up to credible seminaries such as Luther Rice, Mid-America, the SBC six, or Bob Jones, Detroit, or Central (Minnesota). Why do an Andersonville program when you can do distance education with Luther Rice, for instance?

Those who have never had the rigor of a Southern Seminary may find Andersonville a quality program. Those of us who have never faced major-league pitching might be able to hit the best pitcher in our small town and think we swing a pretty hot bat.

The seminary extension program of the SBC (not to be confused with the SBC seminary extensions---confused yet?) is good for what it does, but it is not very challenging. I've seen some of the courses, and they wouldn't hold up to Luther Rice.

My point is this: There are credible distance-education opportunities available without having to choose an Andersonville. Please, please, please do not take this personally, but I think most folks who get involved in Andersonville simply do not have the required prerequisite training to get into a credible seminary. My advice remains to back up and punt. Go back and get a credible bachelor's degree, if need be. It will mean more in the long run than a doctorate from Andersonville.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Brother Ian]

El Guero,

What is your educational background?

Thanks,

Ian

 

[El_Guero]

As little as possible ...

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by j_barner2000:
My assessment of Andersonville, from experience, is that like any educational experience, I am receiving a quality education and a good value for my investment of time and finances.

I agree with Broadus. You may like the program at Andersonville, but it really will limit your job opportunities. With a degree from Andersonville there's a good chance you'll need to keep the part-time job to make ends meet. Training from a more rigorous seminary will give you more ministry opportunities and will stretch you. If you compare Andersonville to the seminaries that Broadus mentioned you'll see how very different it is. Don't do something for which you will have regrets later.

 

[j_barner2000]

I can coninue in my education at other schools. As far as being Bi-Vocational... If I remain at the church I am at... with a Community of 200-300 (Depending upon season) which is actually in decline. I think God is doing well bringing attendance from 12 a year ago to 30. I am not going to go church hoppong like some preachers do every year or 3 to get a "better position," like I did in the secular job market. I am satisfied to be right where God has placed me and I will move when He moves me... Or I will stay right where I am, if that is His will.

I plan to stay right in His will.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by j_barner2000:
I can coninue in my education at other schools. As far as being Bi-Vocational... If I remain at the church I am at... with a Community of 200-300 (Depending upon season) which is actually in decline. I think God is doing well bringing attendance from 12 a year ago to 30. I am not going to go church hoppong like some preachers do every year or 3 to get a "better position," like I did in the secular job market. I am satisfied to be right where God has placed me and I will move when He moves me... Or I will stay right where I am, if that is His will.

I plan to stay right in His will.

Can you name a reputable school that will accept your Andersonville credits or degree?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I think I would ask Andersonville what is the fruit they have born in the way of developing Christian leaders.In other words who are some of thier notable graduates and what have they done?

 

[j_barner2000]

Paidagogos... At this time I have not investigated that. However, that is a good question. And Bill, you have once again asked the right question. Perhaps I should survey some of thier graduates, if schools like that to be done. Could be interesting to see what they think of their investment.

 

[UZThD]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Brother Ian:


If the state of Georgia grants the authority to issue degrees by the school, why would you,

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why would Paid not suppose that validates ATS? Because that state granted authority has little do with the quality of the ATS ThD program.

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If the degree is legally earned, why couldn't I be called Dr.?

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It is also legal to sell and buy ministerial titles and degrees. Legality is not equaivalent to honesty or quality.

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If you read all of my posts, you have seen that earning this degree has nothing to do with me being called Dr.

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Really! Then why are you getting a doc degree at all?

Naw, you want to be called "doc"!!

If you do not want the title, then prove that now by just buying the ITS tapes and your own text books.

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I have no desire to teach in a college, university or seminary.


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Then why do you need a title which is associated with that?

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I wanted practical ministry teaching that would equip me to be a better Sunday School teacher, shepherd, and counselor before the Lord puts me in the position of pastor.

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Why does any of these ministries require a doc? But,if they actually do require a doc , why not get a real one-huh?

You wish to have it both ways: On the one hand you think your future ministry may require a real doc, but on the other hand the ATS doc, while being far from real, you say is suitable. Makes no sense at all to me.

A ministry that requires one have a phony doc? I think not!

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I've read Bear's book (after I was already enrolled in Andersonville) and it mentions Andersonville in a small paragraph, not in a negative or positive light.

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If you seek insight from academe re the ATS ThD, why don't you email the academic Deans of six accredited schools and have them evalute that very ATS ThD program? That will really give you insight!!

Then share your results right here with us. Give me those names and results because, be assured, I will check! Those will be my facts, but, then, you are impervious to facts.

People will go right on getting ThDs from ATS and then will tell all of us "Oh, I was just looking for encouragement."

You don't want that. You want someone to say that Andersonville's ThD is good when it is not. It is just about as far from good as bad can be, and if I deny that so am I !

Look : If you want to pay $4000 for a really stupid doc instead $2500 for a South African credible one , then go ahead.

BUT the REAL reason you CANNOT enter a credible doc is that you not have a credible masters in the area. Isn't that right??? Oh well, fill in that little hole with putty ..no one will notice.

In fact, just fill all of the holes at Anfersonville with putty too: SEE: no credible teachers; just putty it in ! SEE: no coursework rigor ; just putty it in . SEE: no entry teqs ; putty it in!!!


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PS To my praying friends: Thankyou Bitsy and all. Got home yesterday. The doc did FIVE bypasses. Not much good yet.

Blessings,

Bill Grover

[ October 01, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: UZThD ]

 

[El_Guero]

Bill

Welcome back!

Ya' might not be good for a while ...

Wayne