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Andersonville Seminary
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
UZThD,
The posture of your response is disturbing. I apologize if I am taking your post the wrong way, but you are attacking this man without provocation. You are making assumptions about his motivation and this is unfair. He constantly explained why he took the route he did. It is possible that he didn't know about other routes. He is now very far into the program and needs to decide if he is going to finish or pursue an accredited degree, but that is no reason to attack his motivations. J_Barner please continue to pursue God's will and I'm sure everything will work out fine. God Bless.
The posture of your response is disturbing. I apologize if I am taking your post the wrong way, but you are attacking this man without provocation. You are making assumptions about his motivation and this is unfair. He constantly explained why he took the route he did. It is possible that he didn't know about other routes. He is now very far into the program and needs to decide if he is going to finish or pursue an accredited degree, but that is no reason to attack his motivations. J_Barner please continue to pursue God's will and I'm sure everything will work out fine. God Bless.
J Barner and Brother Ian,
I agree with Brice. Just continue to be faithful. I applaud both of you for wanting to continue your biblical training. The Lord will tell you to stay with Andersonville or find another school. I cannot second guess your motivations on this particular issue- omniscience is not an attribute that was given to me the moment of my conversion. Regardless of the school of choice- both of you are co-laborers in ministry and I pray the Lord continues to bless your ministries.
I agree with Brice. Just continue to be faithful. I applaud both of you for wanting to continue your biblical training. The Lord will tell you to stay with Andersonville or find another school. I cannot second guess your motivations on this particular issue- omniscience is not an attribute that was given to me the moment of my conversion. Regardless of the school of choice- both of you are co-laborers in ministry and I pray the Lord continues to bless your ministries.
Sorry, Brice and hvnhlpr, but UZThD has hit the nail on the head. He's not making assumptions or questioning motivation. All he has done is to take what J_Barner has written in previous threads and responded to them. It is more loving to speak the truth bluntly than to offer comfort to those who continue down the wrong path.
We've bought so much into the secular "I'm okay; you're okay," that responding truthfully is somehow out of bounds for a Christian. An Andersonville degree is worthless as a degree. The only people who think otherwise know nothing about theological education. UZThD is right---if you only want the "education," buy the tapes and texts.
Many of us could have gone the Andersonville route and been called "Doctor," but we knew it would be a sham. No, UZThD is right. Most who do Andersonville programs cannot be accepted into credible programs because the requisite degrees come from non-credible programs.
Let's not be like the false prophets of the OT and cry out "Peace! Peace!" where there is no peace. This is not a matter of personalities; it's a matter of truth.
Some folks get sucked into the Andersonvilles of the theological world unwittingly. However, once they are confronted with the truth, then their response reveals their motivation or hard-headness.
If someone wants to debate the worthiness of Andersonville (yet again), please start another thread with that intent. Andersonville is easy to assess just by looking at its faculty and requirements.
To Bill G.: I can see that you've recovered enough to see issues clearly. May God continue to restore you to good health and bless your ministry at Faith.
Blessings,
Bill
We've bought so much into the secular "I'm okay; you're okay," that responding truthfully is somehow out of bounds for a Christian. An Andersonville degree is worthless as a degree. The only people who think otherwise know nothing about theological education. UZThD is right---if you only want the "education," buy the tapes and texts.
Many of us could have gone the Andersonville route and been called "Doctor," but we knew it would be a sham. No, UZThD is right. Most who do Andersonville programs cannot be accepted into credible programs because the requisite degrees come from non-credible programs.
Let's not be like the false prophets of the OT and cry out "Peace! Peace!" where there is no peace. This is not a matter of personalities; it's a matter of truth.
Some folks get sucked into the Andersonvilles of the theological world unwittingly. However, once they are confronted with the truth, then their response reveals their motivation or hard-headness.
If someone wants to debate the worthiness of Andersonville (yet again), please start another thread with that intent. Andersonville is easy to assess just by looking at its faculty and requirements.
To Bill G.: I can see that you've recovered enough to see issues clearly. May God continue to restore you to good health and bless your ministry at Faith.
Blessings,
Bill
Welcome back, indeed. Praying for your speedy recovery. BTW did you go with the pump or not the pump? I'm kind of curious about the CABG. I have some cardiac issues myself. </font>[/QUOTE]===Originally posted by PatsFan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by UZThD:
QUOTE]
----------
PS To my praying friends: Thankyou Bitsy and all. Got home yesterday. The doc did FIVE bypasses. Not much good yet.
Blessings,
Bill Grover
I believe I was on the pump. My doc has read on the issue and questions the validity of the research which attempts to correlate neural losses to using the pump. He pointed out that there can be some difficulty in attaching bypasses to a beating heart.
I came out of the IC unit quickly and remember pointing to the tube down my wind pipe pipe and motioning for them to remove it. I had good focus and in a couple of days was rereading Martin Chemnitz' The Two Natures of Christ.
I REALLY had several very bad nights. They kept two tubes in my chest for twp nights and one up my penis into the bladder for draining for four nights. About 5PM one night the nurse began a drip using one of the catheters in my wrist area. Unknown to her the catheter was bad. The liquid instead of going into a vein was dispersing under skin. I woke up 2 hrs later with a terrible burning in my arm which lasted for 6 hrs.
Oh well, I don't know how many times I have God in the last 6 days when as it usually happened something was done right.
My good brethren: I hope this not an improper comparison . But I wonder if not only does Christ in His humanity share our frailty and understand us , PRAISE GOD, but in our greatest physical trials we understand better what He has suffered by pain in His humanity FOR US !
Bill
===Originally posted by Brice:
UZThD,
The posture of your response is disturbing. I apologize if I am taking your post the wrong way, but you are attacking this man without provocation. You are making assumptions about his motivation and this is unfair. He constantly explained why he took the route he did. It is possible that he didn't know about other routes. He is now very far into the program and needs to decide if he is going to finish or pursue an accredited degree, but that is no reason to attack his motivations. J_Barner please continue to pursue God's will and I'm sure everything will work out fine. God Bless.
I 'm sorry that you are disturbed because I disagree with Ian over ATS. But your being disturbed has absolutely no bearing on the issue of the quality of the ATS ThD.
I don't believe I am attacking Ian. But I am attacking what passes at Andersonville for a ThD program. It is deceptive and it is a disgrace!
Ian asked for a response. I gave him mine as one who knows quite a bit about higher Christian Ed. If you don't like it, oh well.
Originally posted by Brice:
[QB] UZThD,
The posture of your response is disturbing.
===
Here are some "postures" that disturb me:
1) Not getting ready to even begin to do credible doc work in Bible or theology by avoiding the learning experience of a credible ThM, and by avoiding learning the Biblical languages, and by avoiding the completion of a scholarly master's thesis which shows the ability to do doc work.
Being happy that you do not have to meet all of those nasty old prerequisites which are associated with beginning real ThD work. You can just jump right in..ready or not.
Then supposing somehow that avoiding all of those prereqs honors Christ.
2) Thinking that the level of ITS tapes is what real ThD programs are made of, when they are not.
Being happy that one's doc work does not require the rigor connected by those in the know to real ThD work .
Thinking that avoiding such rigor honors Christ.
3) Being content to be taught at what should be the highest level of learning (PhD/ThD) by those who at all costs have themselves avoided the rigor of doing real ThD work.
Being happy that one is not required to meet the very high standards of learning required by real profs in real ThD programs.
Supposing that having unqualified profs, profs who choose themselves to remain unqualified by their avoidence of experiencing the rigor of real grad studies, honors Christ.
4) Being content to get a ThD by doing less than 1/4 of what real ThD students in real ThD programs do .
Being happy that while such good Christian brethren endure long and rigorous programs, you have found an easy way to get the same high degree but do a low quality of work to get it.
Thinking that doing such honors Christ.
5) Allowing oneself to be called "Dr" by people who know nothing about what really is required to complete a ThD/PhD program.
Thinking that it is quite all right to be called "Dr" under such circumstances.
Imagining that this deception [of "Give of Your Least to The Master" ] honors Christ.
Those are some "postures" that disturb me.
christianmilvet
New Member
As a Bachelors student at Andersonville I have found the program to be outstanding. The teachings of JESUS were viewed as wrong in HIS time. Andersonville is not for everybody but neither is Harvard or Yale. If the LORD leads a person to Andersonville then who are we to question the decision to enroll there. Accreditation can be a very political process. One of the institutions which the Rev. Billy Graham attended was not accredited when he was there. This has not in any way hindered the theology of Rev. Graham. When I was in prayer regarding an institution to enroll in, I saw problems with many of the distance learning schools supported by many of this Board. While considering all factors, I believe a person should allow the LORD to be the final determining factor in which program to enroll in.
QUICK QUESTION!! Ref:ANDERSONVILLE Doctoral progams -vs- other doctoral programs.
Let's, if we can, put aside all the emotion and stuff. Let's just look at this from a educational stand only. Ok?
I want you to look at two degree programs. One is from Andersonville, one is from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Then I want you to answer the questions. Please visit the two sites and read ALL the info carefully before answering.
The first program is Andersonville's Doctorate of Theology program. Examine that program by clicking here . Program info is on page 6. Also look at the entrance requirements by clicking here .
The second program is Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries PhD program. Examine that program by clicking here . Be sure to look at entrance requirments (etc). Read the pages carefully.
After you have read/compared those pages carefully please take a few moments to answer the following questions:
1. Compare and contrast the entrance requirements for Southeastern and Andersonville's doctoral progams. Discuss languages, standardized tests, graduate degrees, etc. Which requires more?
2. Compare and contrast the actual doctoral programs. Which sounds more challenging? In answering this question look at all requirements.
3. After carefully looking over both programs which one do you believe will be most widely accepted by employers (seminaries, universities, colleges, churches, etc).
4. After carefully looking over both programs which one do you honestly believe will better prepare a person for effective service in areas such as church history, New Testament/Old Testament studies, etc?
5. Which of the two programs has turned out top of the line, God fearing and Bible believing, Seminary/University professors? Which one has not? On both please also explain why you believe this to be the case.
6. While Andersonville is more convenient than Southeastern, do you believe making some adjustments for the Southeastern program would be more fulfilling and rewarding in the long term than Andersonville? Why or why not? Also if Southeastern expanded their online program would that make Southeastern more accessable?
The point here is not to bash Andersonville. The point is the make clear the differences between Andersonville and a accredited institution of Christian higher learning. Btw you could compare Andersonville to Liberty, Luther Rice, or any other school that has a extended distance/online learning degree program and get the same type answers.
Martin.
Let's, if we can, put aside all the emotion and stuff. Let's just look at this from a educational stand only. Ok?
I want you to look at two degree programs. One is from Andersonville, one is from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Then I want you to answer the questions. Please visit the two sites and read ALL the info carefully before answering.
The first program is Andersonville's Doctorate of Theology program. Examine that program by clicking here . Program info is on page 6. Also look at the entrance requirements by clicking here .
The second program is Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries PhD program. Examine that program by clicking here . Be sure to look at entrance requirments (etc). Read the pages carefully.
After you have read/compared those pages carefully please take a few moments to answer the following questions:
1. Compare and contrast the entrance requirements for Southeastern and Andersonville's doctoral progams. Discuss languages, standardized tests, graduate degrees, etc. Which requires more?
2. Compare and contrast the actual doctoral programs. Which sounds more challenging? In answering this question look at all requirements.
3. After carefully looking over both programs which one do you believe will be most widely accepted by employers (seminaries, universities, colleges, churches, etc).
4. After carefully looking over both programs which one do you honestly believe will better prepare a person for effective service in areas such as church history, New Testament/Old Testament studies, etc?
5. Which of the two programs has turned out top of the line, God fearing and Bible believing, Seminary/University professors? Which one has not? On both please also explain why you believe this to be the case.
6. While Andersonville is more convenient than Southeastern, do you believe making some adjustments for the Southeastern program would be more fulfilling and rewarding in the long term than Andersonville? Why or why not? Also if Southeastern expanded their online program would that make Southeastern more accessable?
The point here is not to bash Andersonville. The point is the make clear the differences between Andersonville and a accredited institution of Christian higher learning. Btw you could compare Andersonville to Liberty, Luther Rice, or any other school that has a extended distance/online learning degree program and get the same type answers.
Martin.
Brother Ian
Active Member
FYI for all, not that it matters. . . I am pursuing a D.Min., not a Th.D. at Andersonville.
The D.Min. is distinguished from a Doctor of Philosophy or Doctor of Theology in that it focuses specifically on excellence in practical ministry rather than academic research and languages.
I am certain there is backlash to follow.
Bill, I am happy that all went well, I prayed for you the morning of the surgery.
Ian
The D.Min. is distinguished from a Doctor of Philosophy or Doctor of Theology in that it focuses specifically on excellence in practical ministry rather than academic research and languages.
I am certain there is backlash to follow.
Bill, I am happy that all went well, I prayed for you the morning of the surgery.
Ian
My complaint against Andersonville has nothing to do with "the teachings of Jesus" being acceptable or not. The quality of work required is the issue.Originally posted by christianmilvet:
As a Bachelors student at Andersonville I have found the program to be outstanding. The teachings of JESUS were viewed as wrong in HIS time. Andersonville is not for everybody but neither is Harvard or Yale. If the LORD leads a person to Andersonville then who are we to question the decision to enroll there. Accreditation can be a very political process. One of the institutions which the Rev. Billy Graham attended was not accredited when he was there. This has not in any way hindered the theology of Rev. Graham. When I was in prayer regarding an institution to enroll in, I saw problems with many of the distance learning schools supported by many of this Board. While considering all factors, I believe a person should allow the LORD to be the final determining factor in which program to enroll in.
If you do your bachelor's through Andersonville, you will find no credible graduate program accept your work. At the very best you may be accepted on probation, but most will not acknowledge your diploma.
Again, a school which Billy Graham attended has nothing to do with Andersonville. Are you talking about Bob Jones? Bob Jones has always been seen as credible, accredited or not, with rare acceptions. Comparing Andersonville with Bob Jones is like comparing a pen light with a flood light.
I always love the "if the Lord leads me, then who are you to question that" argument. Evangelical feminists use the same argument, as well as homosexuals who claim a call to the ministry. How do you know the Lord led you to Andersonville? I find it hard to believe that the Lord led you to an inferior program for training to do His work. There are quality distance education opportunities out there, but Andersonville is not one of them.
Also, this has nothing to do with accreditation. There are highly credible non-accredited programs.
No, the issue is legitimacy. I do have less of an issue with Andersonville's offering a bachelor's degree than I do with its offering a grad degree, especially a doctorate. My concern for you is that if you do post-bachelor work, it will have to be at a non-credible institution.
Why did you choose Andersonville for your foundational degree? Why not Luther Rice Bible College, where you could earn an accredited degree?
Bill
ITS tapes are accredited
You will notice in the list below, Denver, Gordon-Conwell, Dallas Theological Seminary (Their site was where I first learned about ITS)
web page
Now A DMin or ThD or PhD should not have very many classes from the MDiv level applied to the doctoral level (usually 3 is the number I see referenced)
You will notice in the list below, Denver, Gordon-Conwell, Dallas Theological Seminary (Their site was where I first learned about ITS)
web page
Now A DMin or ThD or PhD should not have very many classes from the MDiv level applied to the doctoral level (usually 3 is the number I see referenced)
Originally posted by Brother Ian:
[QB] FYI for all, not that it matters. . . I am pursuing a D.Min., not a Th.D. at Andersonville.
The D.Min. is distinguished from a Doctor of Philosophy or Doctor of Theology in that it focuses specifically on excellence in practical ministry rather than academic research and languages.
I am certain there is backlash to follow.
===
On that point I myself will give you NO backlash. My MA is in Theogy (in general) , my ThM is in Biblical Studies, my ThD is in Systematic Theology. No degree at all have I in Praxis.
Broadus and Rhet do have DMins ; let them comment.
I do not feel qualified to evaluate the ATS DMin program. That is why I've mostly limited my remarks to specically the ThD.
===
Bill, I am happy that all went well, I prayed for you the morning of the surgery.
===
Thankyou. Much appreciated!!
Originally posted by El_Guero:
[QB] ITS tapes are accredited
===
Who "accredits" cassette tapes?
Can you give the names of some RA schools which actually give ThD/PhD credit in Bible or in theology for listening to ITS cassette tapes and for submitting products based on these tapes to be evaluated by mentors who have no RA docs in the area of instruction ?
"Wish you would make the comparison for us."
==Sorry, not going to. The difference between the two types of schools is very, very clear. I don't really care if anyone answers it on the board or not. My concern is that those who promote Andersonville would look at the massive difference between a solid school like Southeastern and a school like Andersonville. There is a world of difference. I put the links up to compare the ThD (Andersonville) with the PhD (Southeastern). Why not compare the MDiv at Andersonville with the MDiv at Regent Divinity School? Or Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, or Southwestern? On each of those fronts, and I could name plenty more, Andersonville will be seen to not even be in the same ballpark (academically). If a person wants a degree (online/distance) I suggest Liberty, Southern, Luther Rice, or another accredited school. The degrees from those schools will enjoy much wider acceptance than a degree from Andersonville. Luther Rice and Southern Evangelical are TRACS accredited, Liberty Theological is TRACS and SACS. I know as a fact Liberty is accepted by state universities, seminaries, etc. Can Andersonville claim that? No. I can name several major schools that will accept degrees/credits from Luther Rice and Southern Evangelical because those schools, while not RA, are nationally accredited with TRACS. Some of the schools that have told me directly that they will accept some/full credits/degrees from Luther Rice or Southern Evangelical are: MidAmerica Baptist Theological Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wheaton, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary etc, etc. Do we even need to ask if they will accept degrees (in full) or credits (in part) from Andersonville? No, because we know what they will say (No).
I am not crashing the individual folks who have degrees from Andersonville. For crying out loud my pastor has a degree from Covington! He got a ThD from Covington but does not call himself "Dr" for very obvious reasons. My point? one should not do what my pastor did. One should get a degree from a school that enjoys academic acceptance. Then one is not limited by their degree.
Martin.
==Sorry, not going to. The difference between the two types of schools is very, very clear. I don't really care if anyone answers it on the board or not. My concern is that those who promote Andersonville would look at the massive difference between a solid school like Southeastern and a school like Andersonville. There is a world of difference. I put the links up to compare the ThD (Andersonville) with the PhD (Southeastern). Why not compare the MDiv at Andersonville with the MDiv at Regent Divinity School? Or Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, or Southwestern? On each of those fronts, and I could name plenty more, Andersonville will be seen to not even be in the same ballpark (academically). If a person wants a degree (online/distance) I suggest Liberty, Southern, Luther Rice, or another accredited school. The degrees from those schools will enjoy much wider acceptance than a degree from Andersonville. Luther Rice and Southern Evangelical are TRACS accredited, Liberty Theological is TRACS and SACS. I know as a fact Liberty is accepted by state universities, seminaries, etc. Can Andersonville claim that? No. I can name several major schools that will accept degrees/credits from Luther Rice and Southern Evangelical because those schools, while not RA, are nationally accredited with TRACS. Some of the schools that have told me directly that they will accept some/full credits/degrees from Luther Rice or Southern Evangelical are: MidAmerica Baptist Theological Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wheaton, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary etc, etc. Do we even need to ask if they will accept degrees (in full) or credits (in part) from Andersonville? No, because we know what they will say (No).
I am not crashing the individual folks who have degrees from Andersonville. For crying out loud my pastor has a degree from Covington! He got a ThD from Covington but does not call himself "Dr" for very obvious reasons. My point? one should not do what my pastor did. One should get a degree from a school that enjoys academic acceptance. Then one is not limited by their degree.
Martin.
Originally posted by UZThD:
This is my point. I've read nothing that makes me think this is his position. It's possible that he made the best decision he could with the information he had. Not everyone has the same information you do. Not everyone knows about all the different seminary options out there. I don't disagree with you on the quality of education at Andersonville. I do disagree with you implying negative things about his motive. I have seen nothing that makes me think his motivation is anything but Godly. I just say give him the benefit of the doubt. Attack the school, but not the man's motives.Originally posted by Brice:
[QB] UZThD,
The posture of your response is disturbing.
===
Here are some "postures" that disturb me:
1) Not getting ready to even begin to do credible doc work in Bible or theology by avoiding the learning experience of a credible ThM, and by avoiding learning the Biblical languages, and by avoiding the completion of a scholarly master's thesis which shows the ability to do doc work.
Being happy that you do not have to meet all of those nasty old prerequisites which are associated with beginning real ThD work. You can just jump right in..ready or not.
Then supposing somehow that avoiding all of those prereqs honors Christ.
AMEN!Attack the school, but not the man's motives.
I would pray that he has decided to give his life to the ministry of reconciliation to honor Christ ... But, then again maybe he hasn't ...supposing somehow that avoiding all of those prereqs honors Christ