Andrea Yates - Justice Served?

[pinoybaptist]

Hopefully. Mental healthcare is really not very good in the US. I don't know about the rest of the world, but here it is a hit-or-miss process.

yeah ? check out mental health care in my country, Daisy. you'll be glad you're an American ('less, of course, if my people have finally stepped into the 21st century).

 

[pinoybaptist]

All of us are just as sick as Yates, only she is obviously very sick. Some of the comments here about her would be best aimed at terrorists who blow themselves up to kill innocent civilians, or send their young people to do the job.
Those sickos are not sick in the head, they know exactly what they were doing.
Andrea Yates, however, is mentally and emotionally sick.

 

[KenH]

For those of you bringing her husband into the discussion, can you present any evidence that he had reason to believe that she would commit such a evil act for which she should have been hanged?

 

[JGrubbs]

She is guilty of killing her kids, we all know she did that. But we also know that she was mentally ill, her husband knew she was mentally ill, and I believe he actually contributed only to making her mental illness even worse, he should be held accountable for endargering his children. His one of those religious idiots who thinks mental illness is simply and issue with sin that can be prayed away.

These are the warning signs he had available to him, as reported in The New York Times:

• his wife's suicide attempt in June, 1999, about 6 months after the birth of her fourth child (diagnosis: post-partum psychosis and depression )
• signs of stress from having to take care of her father, who had Alzheimer's disease
• less than a month later, the husband finds her holding a knife to her neck (she describes hearing voices, she says she had a vision about getting the knife, she says she first had such a vision after the birth of her first child, she had stopped taking her medicine)
• the birth of the couple's fifth child, and also possibly the death of her father, cause additional episodes of depression and psychosis (between March and May she spends four stints at a psychiatric hospital, at one point her physician seeks involuntary commitment because she is catatonic and has scratched bald spots into her head)

Even without knowing anything further, this is not the type of person a rational person would leave five young children with. But the husband's contribution to the tragedy is more causative than just ignoring warning signs:

• the husband, described as "controlling" by one doctor, allows her only "two hours of personal time a week"
• after the birth of their fourth child and his wife's two suicide attempts, he doesn't change the decision with his now obviously mentally ill wife to have as many babies as nature will allow
• the decisions to have more children and to home school the children come despite their psychologist's warning that these courses of action would not be in Mrs. Yates' best interest
• at one point during her hospitalizations, the husband puts pressure on her to leave the hospital, claiming that she was 90-95% normal, while she reports 70-75%
• he allows her to be discharged from the hospital for the last time prior to her murdering her children, even though records indicate that at the time she is still depressed and suicidal

A rationally thinking man would not have additional children with a wife who is obviously incapable of caring for even the four they already have. A rationally thinking man would not foist the home-schooling of five children on a woman like Andrea Yates. A rationally thinking man would not leave five young children alone with her.

The severely mentally incapacitated state of Andrea Yates meant that decision-making fell by default to her husband, and he made some egregiously bad ones.

 

[KenH]

Thanks for the info, Jonathan.

Acting stupidly is not the same thing as acting criminally.

The chances of him being charged are as likely as her being hanged in the public square.

You may think that he should be charged and I may think that she should be hanged but neither will come to pass.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

I wonder what some on this thread would be thinking and saying if she had murdered their 5 children?

 

[KenH]

An excellent point!!!!

 

[El_Guero]

Ken

Do you really think that crime deserves punishment?

But, why can't we just get along? Why can't you just do things the way I want them? Why can't you forgive? If you do not forgive her right now, and stop this nonsense - you will die and go to the lake of fire! 1 . 2 . 3 your there!



Kinda funny how Christians can attack other believers with a verbal battle-ax, and let the guilty not pay the consequences of their actions. Kinda funny how the OT is valid only when it supports our politic. Kinda funny how the good Samaritan is an example of forgiving a murderer - never knew the guy was beaten for murder. I kinda always thought he was a pretty good stand up guy and the bad guys stole from him. Funny how the Word of God is wrong so much of the time . . .

 

[El_Guero]

Question:

Had a police officer found Yates drowning her children and determined that deadly force was necessary to prevent the murder of a child - would you be angry at him/her for using deadly force to prevent the commission of a murder?

Then the death penalty is an appropriate response to the crime. Will she get what she earned? No. And it is not the bleeding heart problem - Yates is white, a woman, and middle class. Had she been a man, poor, a crack addict, or black woman - she would have not have gone free from death row.

When pity changes my politic on an issue, my politic needed changing.

 

[KenH]

Do you really think that crime deserves punishment?

Absolutely.

Genesis 9:5-6 (ESV)
And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

[6] "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image."


I see no "insanity exception" in the above command from God.

 

[TaterTot]

I certainly understand compassion. It does seem from the post a few up that there were some serious issues that may or may not have been dealt with.
However, I just cant see the logic here. Let's say a sick man raped your little girl. Would you still be so kind and compassionate? He was sick, afterall. Lets rehabilitate him.
I dont want Andrea yates to go to hell or anything like that, but I just cant see why people are saying she is basically excused because she is sick.

 

[El_Guero]

I am afraid of what some of them might say. Wouldn't be the same as what they claim it would be.

I wonder what some on this thread would be thinking and saying if she had murdered their 5 children?

 

[JGrubbs]

I wonder what some on this thread would be thinking and saying if she had murdered their 5 children?

As Christians we are supposed to show compassion and forgivness, but I would still want her to pay for her crimes, I do think she should pay for the crimes she committed against her children, but I also think her husband should be punished for endangering his children. I believe this case should be an eye opener to the huge problem of mental illness in America today. Especially to those Christians like her husband who brush it off as simply a sin issue that can be prayed away. The Church needs to stop shooting it's wounded in regards to the issue of mental illness, and start educating themselves on what they can do to help these people find the proper treatment they need for their illnesses before it's too late.

I have a friend whose husband, Deputy Eugene Gregory, was responding to a disturbance call, and ended up in a confrontation with Alan Singletary, a man whose schizophrenia went untreated for years. Alan Singletary killed Deputy Gregory, wounded two other deputies, and was himself killed in the ensuing 13-hour standoff.

Linda Gregory and Alan's sister, Alice Petree, know well the pain that can come from the unintended consequences of failing to treat a severe mental illness. Since this tragedy they have become close friends and have been working together to educate everyone they can on the issue of mental illness. They even worked together to help pass "The Baker Act" here in Florida two years ago. This law allows court-ordered outpatient treatment for people with severe mental illnesses, like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, who have a history of noncompliance combined with either repeated Baker Act admissions or serious violence.

Linda could have become bitter towards Alan's family because of what he did to her husband, instead she has shown compassion and forgivness to his family, and has allowed the Lord to use her to bring healing and knowledge to thousands of families here in Florida. She has even been a personal blessing to my family as the Lord has allowed her to persoanlly counsel my wife, who suffers from bi-polar disorder.

 

[TaterTot]

If you have ever read "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" by Mark Noll, this "praying it away" is all part of the scandal. We have some terrible messes as evangelicals that we have allowed to fester. Then when they come to a head, we wonder where we went wrong.

JGrubbs, I am so sorry to hear about your friend. That is wonderful that the wife is able to minister in the midst of her pain.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Good point Tater.

JGrubbs I understand your points. I do understand compassion and I would hope that I am a compassionate person.

Yet, I have to be honest and say if she murdered my children, I would want her to have her life taken for her crime whether she was insane or not.

 

[El_Guero]

I certainly understand compassion. It does seem from the post a few up that there were some serious issues that may or may not have been dealt with.
However, I just cant see the logic here. Let's say a sick man raped your little girl. Would you still be so kind and compassionate? He was sick, afterall. Lets rehabilitate him.
I dont want Andrea yates to go to hell or anything like that, but I just cant see why people are saying she is basically excused because she is sick.

DITTO!

DITTO!

And DITTO! again.

 

[El_Guero]

I also think her husband should be punished for endangering his children. I believe this case should be an eye opener to the huge problem of mental illness in America today. Especially to those Christians like her husband who brush it off as simply a sin issue that can be prayed away. The Church needs to stop shooting it's wounded in regards to the issue of mental illness, and start educating themselves on what they can do to help these people find the proper treatment they need for their illnesses before it's too late.

We have lost so much of our family values - it is sad when we continue to look the other way and do not try to help while help would still do some good.

I know that one problem I have with 'helping her' now is that help will no longer protect her children. Where were the calls to help her when it would have mattered?

 

[JGrubbs]

Those calls should have been coming from her husband and other family members, and those in her "church" who God put in her life to help her. Your right there is no help available now that will bring back her children. But sometimes the "knee jerk" call for the death penalty is not always the best solution. If this "knee jerk" form of justice would have been used against Paul in the Bible for his murder of so many Christians, we wouldn't have half the New Testament.

I don't think an "insanity defense" should be allowed for everyone, but I do believe that it is a valid defense in some cases, and I do believe that we need to use this case as a wake up call to Christians to start seeing how God can use them in regards to the issue of mental illness.

None of us are 100% healthy physically, mentally or spiritually, and there are some in our lives who have more severe illnesses in one of the three areas that others, we need to look for ways to let the Holy Spirit use us to minister to these people daily, so they can find the help they need before we end up personally knowing the next "Andrea Yates".

 

[TaterTot]

nicely put :thumbs:

 

[El_Guero]

I agree that knee jerk executions won't do any better than knee jerk forgiveness.

But, I really have a difficult time thinking of those poor children trusting their mother as she murdered them. I just cannot understand that kind of evil.

I just wish that the "insanity defense" was used much less than it is. I realize that she is crazy (as her husband must be as well), but it is difficult for me to forget the children. Only an evil, crazy woman would want to live with that memory in her head.

Those calls should have been coming from her husband and other family members, and those in her "church" who God put in her life to help her. Your right there is no help available now that will bring back her children. But sometimes the "knee jerk" call for the death penalty is not always the best solution. If this "knee jerk" form of justice would have been used against Paul in the Bible for his murder of so many Christians, we wouldn't have half the New Testament.

I don't think an "insanity defense" should be allowed for everyone, but I do believe that it is a valid defense in some cases, and I do believe that we need to use this case as a wake up call to Christians to start seeing how God can use them in regards to the issue of mental illness.

None of us are 100% healthy physically, mentally or spiritually, and there are some in our lives who have more severe illnesses in one of the three areas that others, we need to look for ways to let the Holy Spirit use us to minister to these people daily, so they can find the help they need before we end up personally knowing the next "Andrea Yates".