Animism?

[Walpole]

In another thread (now closed), a poster asserted the mysticism of apparitions has its origins in Animism.

Sts. Stephen and Paul both had mystical experiences with apparitions:

Acts 7:54-56 --> Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”


Acts 9:3-6 ---> Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”


Were these men adherents of Animism?

 

[Revmitchell]

Not the same thing as the completely false claims of seeing Mary

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Nothing mystical about Stephens and Paul's visions.

 

[Particular]

In another thread (now closed), a poster asserted the mysticism of apparitions has its origins in Animism.

Sts. Stephen and Paul both had mystical experiences with apparitions:

Acts 7:54-56 --> Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”


Acts 9:3-6 ---> Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”


Were these men adherents of Animism?

In both your instances, God reveals himself to his chosen servants.
Jesus, the one who rose from the dead, welcomes Stephen into the kingdom of God. Jesus, the living God, chooses Saul to graciously save, despite him being a terrorist.
What we don't see in scripture is any dead saint being sent as a sign...except for the witch of endor bringing up Samuel from the dead and Saul being cursed for such an evil thing.
A witch. An animist, called up Saul and it scares her to no end. Why? Because God ordained it to happen as a judgment upon Saul.
That's it. That's all we see in scripture.
To claim God as an apparition is to make God less than who he is. It cheapens him and it denies that Jesus rose from the dead and is very much alive. It also places dead person's in apparitions on a pedestal with the living God. Such an equation should cause the person of God to shudder as it demeans the God of Creation.
Now, if this is to be a discussion of animist beliefs and how they were co-opted by the Roman Catholic Church, we can certainly discuss this.

 

[Particular]

Animism

Animism

 

[Jerome]

the witch of endor...A witch. An animist, called up Saul....That's it. That's all we see in scripture.

Animism

Luke chapter 9:28-32 in the precious Geneva Bible:

"he tooke Peter and Iohn, and Iames, and went vp into a mountaine to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was changed, and his garment was white and glistered. And beholde, two men talked with him, which were Moses and Elias: Which appeared in glory, and tolde of his departing, which he shoulde accomplish at Hierusalem. But Peter & they that were with him, were heauie with sleepe, and when they awoke, they saw his glorie, and the two men standing with him."

Halleujah!

 

[Jerome]

Animism

John Calvin, on Stephen's vision of Heaven:

"The heavens were opened, to give him a view of the happiness he was going to, that he might, in prospect of it, go cheerfully through death, so great a death. Would we by faith look up stedfastly, we might see the heavens opened"

Hear, hear!

 

[Particular]

Luke chapter 9:28-32 in the precious Geneva Bible:

"he tooke Peter and Iohn, and Iames, and went vp into a mountaine to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was changed, and his garment was white and glistered. And beholde, two men talked with him, which were Moses and Elias: Which appeared in glory, and tolde of his departing, which he shoulde accomplish at Hierusalem. But Peter & they that were with him, were heauie with sleepe, and when they awoke, they saw his glorie, and the two men standing with him."

Halleujah!

So, let's look at the Transfiguration, because it clearly shows the failure of the Roman Catholic Church to learn from this passage.
First, note that Jesus, God, is praying when Moses and Elijah appear. Note that Jesus is glorified.
Second, note Peter's wrongful reaction. Peter attempts to make a shrine to these old saints and make Jesus equal to them. God rebukes Peter in front of his brethren. God then reveals himself in the cloud to declare Jesus as greater than the Prophets of old.
The very shrine making of Rome is shown to be rejected by God as anathema. Yet, Rome does it anyway. Why? Animism does such things. That's why.

Luke 9:28-36 Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!” And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

 

[Jerome]

LOL, What happened to your previous pronouncement?:

we don't see in scripture...any dead saint....
except for the witch of endor....animist, called up Saul and it scares her

That's it. That's all we see in scripture.

 

[Particular]

LOL, What happened to your previous pronouncement:

Kinda like Paul saying he didn't baptize anyone in Corinth...
What is more telling is that you avoid the point that Rome co-opted Animism and ignored the lesson of the Transfiguration by choosing to build shrines for their saints.
God condemned Peter for his actions. If Peter were truly the first Pope, Peter would have openly condemned shrine building and veneration of saints and relics. Those activities are purely pagan animism...which Rome openly promotes.

 

[Walpole]

So, let's look at the Transfiguration, because it clearly shows the failure of the Roman Catholic Church to learn from this passage.
First, note that Jesus, God, is praying when Moses and Elijah appear. Note that Jesus is glorified.
Second, note Peter's wrongful reaction. Peter attempts to make a shrine to these old saints and make Jesus equal to them. God rebukes Peter in front of his brethren. God then reveals himself in the cloud to declare Jesus as greater than the Prophets of old.
The very shrine making of Rome is shown to be rejected by God as anathema. Yet, Rome does it anyway. Why? Animism does such things. That's why.

Luke 9:28-36 Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!” And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

I must be missing God's rebuke of Peter on Mt. Tabor. Can you please post it?

 

[Walpole]

Nothing mystical about Stephens and Paul's visions.

You consider those just ordinary experiences and visions?

Do you think they are common?

 

[Walpole]

Not the same thing as the completely false claims of seeing Mary

So your issue is not with apparitions of Jesus, but only apparitions of Mary?

What do you think of St. John's vision of an apparition of Mary in his Apocalypse?

 

[Revmitchell]

So your issue is not with apparitions of Jesus, but only apparitions of Mary?

What do you think of St. John's vision of an apparition of Mary in his Apocalypse?

There has never been an apparition of Jesus. Neither was there one of Mary in Revelations

 

[Walpole]

There has never been an apparition of Jesus. Neither was there one of Mary in Revelations

So you do not believe Sts. Stephen and Paul actually saw Jesus? Were they just hallucinating or do you think St. Luke was simply wrong and deceiving his readers? Or, is there another explanation to dismiss the veracity of the story?

What about St. John? Do you think he was just hallucinating when he described his apparition of Mary in the Apocalypse or was he trying to deceive his readers? Or, is there another explanation to dismiss the veracity of the story?

 

[Particular]

I must be missing God's rebuke of Peter on Mt. Tabor. Can you please post it?

Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”

—not knowing what he said.

As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!”

"Not knowing what he said" is a rebuke. God then comes to set Peter strait by telling Peter to listen to his beloved Son.

 

[Revmitchell]

So you do not believe Sts. Stephen and Paul actually saw Jesus? Were they just hallucinating or do you think St. Luke was simply wrong and deceiving his readers? Or, is there another explanation to dismiss the veracity of the story?

What about St. John? Do you think he was just hallucinating when he described his apparition of Mary in the Apocalypse or was he trying to deceive his readers? Or, is there another explanation to dismiss the veracity of the story?

Oh they saw Jesus but He wasn't an apparition.

 

[Walpole]

Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”

—not knowing what he said.

As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!”

"Not knowing what he said" is a rebuke. God then comes to set Peter strait by telling Peter to listen to his beloved Son.

A rebuke is a stern disapproval; a reprimand. Where does God issue a stern disapproval and reprimand of Peter?

 

[Walpole]

Oh they saw Jesus but He wasn't an apparition.

Please explain what it was if it was not an apparition.

(You might want to first look up the definition of an apparition.)

 

[Particular]

A rebuke is a stern disapproval; a reprimand. Where does God issue a stern disapproval and reprimand of Peter?

God has to physically tell the dummy that he is to listen to his Son, not Moses or Elijah. Peter, the dummy, doesn't comprehend the Supremacy of Christ Jesus.
Luke says Peter was ignorant.
I cannot help you get over your obstacle if you cannot see the obvious rebuke God is giving to Peter.
Luke informs us that Peter was ignorant. Let me tell you that you are also ignorant if you cannot see what God is declaring in this passage.
Saints are NOT to be venerated or have shrines built for them. That action is the action of animists and pagans.