Another thought concerning the blood. Scriptural or not?

[HankD]

And how does choosing what you will have for supper disprove that the lost man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death? Or how does the choosing what you will have for supper disprove that the saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ.

The very error of mistaking free will for the ability to make choices seems to prove the conflation.

"We are all sinners by nature ,therefore we are held under the yoke of sin . But if the whole man is subject to the dominion of sin , surely the will , which is it's principal seat , must be bound with the closest of chains. And indeed if divine grace were preceded by any will of ours, Paul could not have said that ," it is God that worketh in us to will and to do " (Phil. 2:13) - John Calvin

This speaks of and to believers. Whatever we do in our freedom apart from punctiliar sin is ultimately the will of God.

The reproving Spirit of truth constantly abides with the lost to convince them of sin ready and waiting to give the power to turn.

Conflation - Chapter and verse? I can't seem to find that word - conflation - in the bible.
OBTW it was broiled rib steak tonight.

Free will exists at every level.
I may want to visit Italy but unless I am provided the means to get there I cannot exercise my will.
So I do have the will but not the means.
John Bunyan wanted to be forgiven of his sons but it was several years before the Spirit of God translated him.
"My sins rolled down to the cross and were gone" he had the will but not the means.

So, a lost man's will is not in bondage to the law of sin and death and is therefore able to choose heaven on his own merits?

Not on his own merits but on the merit of the death burial and resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ.

Yes those who are continuously given over to sin (present participle sinners) are slaves to sin but will be freed by turning to Christ. I believe all have that ability to turn at their disposal.
Not in their own power or ability but the power of the enlightenment of the almighty of their sinful status.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

So you assume Lazarus was dead when he responded to Christ's command to come forth? Why not believe Christ gave him life and the ability to hear and he came forth in the power of that restored life?

OK but it seems that hearing comes first
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Yes it is selective - "they that hear" but they are indeed dead when He speaks.

Mark 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Ironic.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Conflation - Chapter and verse? I can't seem to find that word - conflation - in the bible.

I see. So, as the word "Bible" never occurs in the bible you don't believe in the bible? And as the word "Trinity" never occurs in the bible you don't believe in the Trinity?

I can't help but think you are dodging the questions. How does deciding what you are going to have for supper disprove the law of sin and death?

Free will exists at every level.

So the law of sin and death does not exist at every level?

 

[HankD]

I see. So, as the word "Bible" never occurs in the bible you don't believe in the bible? And as the word "Trinity" never occurs in the bible you don't believe in the Trinity?

I can't help but think you are dodging the questions. How does deciding what you are going to have for supper disprove the law of sin and death?

So the law of sin and death does not exist at every level?

I never said the law of sin and death did not exist at every level.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion.
You are putting words in my mouth or at least attributing to me something I never said.

I also never made a claim that what I am having for dinner disproves the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death coexists with man's free will at every level.

con·flate
verb
gerund or present participle: conflating
combine (two or more texts, ideas, etc.) into one.

I did indicate that making a difference between man's ability to choose and man's free will is not a conflation.
To which two or more biblical principle(s) are you alluding that leads to my view of man's free will?

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

You said

Free will exists at every level.

After I said the will of the unsaved man is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

If "free will exists on every level" then it exists on the level of the lost man whose will is not free, but in bondage to the law of sin and death.

You seem to have created a contradiction.

 

[HankD]

You said After I said the will of the unsaved man is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

If "free will exists on every level" then it exists on the level of the lost man whose will is not free, but in bondage to the law of sin and death.

You seem to have created a contradiction.

Oh, OK - Though the unsaved man is technically in bondage to sin and death, I believe I said the ability to turn to God from sin and death is at their disposal.

Here God is speaking with a man obviously dead under the law of sin and death:

Genesis 4
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Presumably "doest well " - yatab - is synonymous in this context with "exercise faith" (unless God is deceiving him and us).

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

I said the ability to turn to God from sin and death is at their disposal.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[HankD]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

How then is anyone saved seeing we ALL come into the world this way?

No one can be saved because we all come into this world under the law of sin and death at enmity with God.

Unless of course God intervenes and obviously He has or again, no one would be saved since we are ALL in this condition before our redemption.

My view is that every human being (not just the "elect") is afforded this special intervention and enlightenment of God the Holy Spirit otherwise no one would/could be saved. So say the scripture...

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The elect freely choose to come and drink of the water of life, the others not so.

No one's free will is violated, God's sovereignty is not violated. God is glorified.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

How then is anyone saved seeing we ALL come into the world this way?

By the Sovereign, unmerited regeneration of the Spirit.

No one can be saved because we all come into this world under the law of sin and death at enmity with God.

Except those regenerated by the Sovereign, unmerited regeneration of the Spirit.

Unless of course God intervenes and obviously He has or again, no one would be saved since we are ALL in this condition before our redemption.

God has Sovereignly intervened to regenerate His elect completely apart from any merit on their part.

My view is that every human being (not just the "elect") is afforded this special intervention and enlightenment of God the Holy Spirit otherwise no one would/could be saved. So say the scripture...

Me thinks you seriously misunderstand the scriptures.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

God has provided the Light so that every man will know that sin kills. No man will be able to claim he did not know.

But remember, Jesus said "I am the light of the world." (John 8:12) Surely you don't believe the entire world will be saved?

You seem to have conflated "Light" with "Regeneration." They are different. Jesus explains that in Matthew 5:14 "Ye are the light of the world." We are the Light to the lost and dying world so that they will know that all have sinned, and that the wages of sin is death. But we are not regeneration.

The elect freely choose to come and drink of the water of life, the others not so.

How can the elect freely choose when, prior to regeneration, their will is in bondage to the law of sin and death, they are enemies of God, do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, and reject Christ and all that He has done?

You have the cart before the horse. The elect come and drink as a result of their regeneration, not as the cause of it. Dead men don't drink.

No one's free will is violated, God's sovereignty is not violated.

No one has free will. You keep making a claim for the existence of something that is a Roman Catholic myth.

One more time. The will of the lost man is in bondage (IE not free) to the law of sin and death.

The will of the saved man is bound (IE not free) to the law of new life in Christ.

God is glorified.

Not by a myth. (That was a nice way of saying an "untruth.")

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And "whosoever will?" Those whom God has regenerated.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yes. Exactly. That is a clear statement of limited atonement.

 

[HankD]

Me thinks you seriously misunderstand the scriptures.

This is the only statement I will address: methinks you should of said "Me thinks you seriously misunderstand Calvin"

I know I don't fit anyone's mold which did cause a bit of grief to my professors to this very day.
Not that I'm proud to be a mugwump cuz it dies get lonely on occasion.
Also I was once a 5 point calvinist until I went to Bible school.

I'm not going to change Tom.


HankD

 

[TCassidy]

"Me thinks you seriously misunderstand Calvin"

I haven't mentioned Calvin. I have only mentioned the bible.

I'm not going to change Tom.

Do you mind if I continue to pray that God will open your eyes to the truth of His word that man is dead in trespass and sin and without hope in the world, in bondage to the law of sin and death, and that the only solution is to be in bondage to the law of new life in Christ?

 

[HankD]

I haven't mentioned Calvin. I have only mentioned the bible.

Calvin has BO, I recognized the odor.

Do you mind if I continue to pray that God will open your eyes to the truth of His word that man is dead in trespass and sin and without hope in the world, in bondage to the law of sin and death, and that the only solution is to be in bondage to the law of new life in Christ?

Sure. Feel free.



HankD

 

[TCassidy]

I recognized the odor.

No, you didn't, as God's word does not stink.

 

[HankD]

No, you didn't, as God's word does not stink.

Actually now that you mention it, it did smell like TULIPs.

HankD

 

[HankD]

But I do have hay fever when it comes to TULIPs,

HankD

 

[Yohanon]

Oh my word who cares? Does scripture even try to define the exact moment? Jesus shed His blood, had His body broken, for our salvation. Diving into the mechanics that are never one mentioned in scripture in any kind of way only serves to draw more questions and lead to false doctrines. The gospel is simple. Leave it that way. Good grief.

Well said

 

[Aaron]

Oh my word who cares?

Those who have been washed, and those who want to be.

 

[Yohanon]

My limited mortal mind cannot reconcile the fact that the moon is made of green cheese and the contradictory fact that the moon rocks brought back by the Apollo missions are not made of green cheese.

Perhaps the problem is not with my mortal mind, but with the non-factual nature of my "facts." The moon is NOT made of green cheese. There! Conflict resolved!

The will is NOT free! The unsaved man's will is in bondage to the law of sin and death. The saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ. Conflict resolved.

The unsaved man cannot come to Christ on the basis of his free will for he has no free will. His will is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

The saved man cannot reject Christ unto perdition for his will, after regeneration, in now bound to the law of new life in Christ.

Neither has a "free will." Both's wills are in bondage. One to sin and the other to Christ.

Thank you, Sir

 

[percho]

Oh my word who cares? Does scripture even try to define the exact moment? Jesus shed His blood, had His body broken, for our salvation. Diving into the mechanics that are never one mentioned in scripture in any kind of way only serves to draw more questions and lead to false doctrines. The gospel is simple. Leave it that way. Good grief.

The question is not about, when the moment of the shed blood took place, that was the moment following when he said, Father into your hands I commend my spirit. The question is when, at what moment, did God the Father demonstrate that the blood had been applied. At what moment was it demonstrated that those who had been dead in trespass and sins were now washed and were begotten again unto a living hope?

Was there any hope in a dead Christ?

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3

Was the resurrection of Christ necessary to the washing away of our sins? Was it necessary for him to be the firstborn from the dead in order to be accepted for us?
Lev 23:10,11 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Could death wash away sins or was, "life again," regeneration, if you will, necessary to the washing away of sins? 1 Cor 15:17

Matt. 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

I contend the above shows death and regeneration. Cup of suffering unto death and regeneration, life from the dead.
The water baptism pictured Jesus dying, Jesus being made alive again, Jesus being renewed with Holy Spirit, Jesus declared the Son of God.
Romans 1:3,4 states the same. -- Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (gave his life, died) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Matt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

We have to follow him in the regeneration Matt 19:28

Titus 3:5 is what took place with Jesus that provides that we can follow him in the same. I know, no Greek but does not the aortic tense imply just that. Something that took place in the past and to take place in the future? Once again I know, no Greek therefore I am asking?

Isn't Romans 6:1-10 about the same thing, us dying with Jesus and being regenerated with Jesus?

Titus 3:5,6 says the very same thing as Acts 2:32,33
Jesus died, was made alive again, received of the Father the Holy Spirit and shed it forth.

Because that took place we now have the Spirit of adoption, sons, heirs awaiting manifestation as sons, the adoption, the time when Jesus will be the firstborn among many brethren. In the regeneration.

 

[HankD]

I know it's hard to imagine/envision but in reality there is no sequence of events in eternity.

It' sounds silly but time is a necessary entity so that things do not happen all at once and that there also is in the time continuum an apparent order and sequence of events.

Even the passage of time has an apparent misapplication for the sequence of events versus the collection of necessary events:

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

fullness - pleroma - with the time
Louw-Nida Lexicon 05202 a) Contents; b) Completeness; d) full; e) enough; a quantity which fills a space.

At least three events had to be in the collection of events... made (ginomai) of a woman, made (ginomai) under (hupo-subject to) the law.

Made of a woman.
Made under the Law.
Subject to the Law.

HankD

 

[Yohanon]

"We are all sinners by nature ,therefore we are held under the yoke of sin . But if the whole man is subject to the dominion of sin , surely the will , which is it's principal seat , must be bound with the closest of chains. And indeed if divine grace were preceded by any will of ours, Paul could not have said that ," it is God that worketh in us to will and to do " (Phil. 2:13) - John Calvin

This speaks of and to believers. Whatever we do in our freedom apart from punctiliar sin is ultimately the will of God.

The reproving Spirit of truth constantly abides with the lost to convince them of sin ready and waiting to give the power to turn.

Conflation - Chapter and verse? I can't seem to find that word - conflation - in the bible.
OBTW it was broiled rib steak tonight.

Free will exists at every level.
I may want to visit Italy but unless I am provided the means to get there I cannot exercise my will.
So I do have the will but not the means.
John Bunyan wanted to be forgiven of his sons but it was several years before the Spirit of God translated him.
"My sins rolled down to the cross and were gone" he had the will but not the means.

Not on his own merits but on the merit of the death burial and resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ.

Yes those who are continuously given over to sin (present participle sinners) are slaves to sin but will be freed by turning to Christ. I believe all have that ability to turn at their disposal.
Not in their own power or ability but the power of the enlightenment of the almighty of their sinful status.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.



OK but it seems that hearing comes first
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Yes it is selective - "they that hear" but they are indeed dead when He speaks.

Mark 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Ironic.

HankD

Beware of those who say "I'm in the club and you're not".