Another verse that blows ME out of the water

Where do you get that from? Who said he was?

 

Why is it so hard to accept that Paul is talking to both believers and unbelievers? How many times does your pastor preach salvation through Christ? Does he offer an invitation to come and accept Christ as Savior? Is he speaking to the believers in your church? Is he trying to save them over and over again? There are unbelievers and those who are in the process of coming to Christ in every church.

This is just common sense.

 

1. I know of no Scripture that says that general revelation in itself leads to saving knowledge of God. Let me know if there's such.

2. If Romans 10:9-13 doesn't address the issue of salvation, I don't know what else it has in mind.

3. On Pentecost, Peter quotes the same verse form Joel in a salvific context (Acts 2:22).

 

1. Paul is not trying to lead these people to the Lord again. Rather, Paul is laying out what is the gospel. He hopes to get support from them as he heads toward Spain (Rom 15).

2. Rom 1:16, 17 is a summary statement of the gospel by which they were saved and everyone else is saved.

3. It's precisely because you think because a letter is addressed primarily to believers, Paul cannot refer to unbelievers.

4. Romans 1:1-5; 14-17 are objective statements about the global scope of the saving gospel.

 

And I, my dear brother, cannot understand how when faced with a clear warning, contingent on doing good works and not doing bad works, that anyone could ascribe the warning to the unsaved, without then embracing the logical consequences of such a theory:

If the unsaved are warned "quit fornicating or go to Hell" then that is absolute 100% works based salvation.

At least in my system, works is always delegated to rewards and always directed to the saved.

But salvation how? By heeding the Pauls warnings to be good or miss the Kingdom? (Or by grace through faith?)

He is quite incorrect and the theology is so full of holes that you couldn't carry bowling balls in it.

Lacy

 

I'll take the observant status for right now.

 

The Book of Romans is the greatest treatise ever written on the theme of soteriology. In just the few verses that we have discussed where have I mentioned kingdom; where has Paul mentioned kingdom? This book is not about the kingdom; it is about salvation. Your pre-conceived bias is evident in your statement "or miss the kingdom" when not one word has been said about the kingdom: not by the Apostle Paul, or by any one of us.

 

Your a hard taskmaster. First you take away all our straw but Paul, so we prove the doctrine frpm Paul.

But as predicted, you don't accept it and so you double our brick output by whittleing us down to Romans exclusively.

This is exactly why I refused to answer your absolutely irrelevant and unbiblical request in the first place.

OK guys. let's prove ME from the book of Romans alone. {I will as soon as you prove the Trinity, or the Virgin Birth, or even That God exists, from the book of Esther.)

Lacy

 

1. These either/or fallacies have become a trademark of these guys hermeneutic.

2. What then do we do with the universal statements of Paul from Rom.3:20ff:

because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20)

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (Romans 3:21)

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; (Romans 3:22)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23)

being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (Romans 3:24)

whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; (Romans 3:25)

for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:26)

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. (Romans 3:27)

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (Romans 3:28)

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, (Romans 3:29)

since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. (Romans 3:30)

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? (Romans 4:1)

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (Romans 4:2)

For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Romans 4:3)

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. (Romans 4:4)

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Romans 4:5)

3. The bolded portions are objective statements abou man's relation to the free offer of the gospel and the faith he must faith if he is going to be justified because of the propitiation of Christ.

4. Why do we wish to complicate the sweet gospel message?

 

Golly DHK! I did not even have to go looking for it! You said it here AGAIN!

Works salvation.

As promised I have provided the direct quote. When I asked you if you think a person has to have works to PROVE he is saved, you said to quit putting words in your mouth. Yet here you are, using the EXACT word I did but you denied it at that time. CONTINUALLY

In order for you to have your cake and eat it too you CANNOT escape the fact that you are espousing works salvation if you wish to continue with this false notion that "a true Christian" will not continue in sin. For don't you see that even if that person sins continually right up til the day before he dies; it is NOT his works which determine whether he is "truly saved" or not?

Are you forgetting the thief on the cross? What was it that determined he was saved? He HAD NO CHANCE to prove he was "truly" saved yet he was indeed saved as declared by the mouth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. And what was that based on? Simply that man's DECLARATION of faith in Jesus. NO WORKS!!!!!

You are preaching a works salvation and it is as unbiblical as transubstantiation.

 

You have not proved your doctrine from Paul. Period. Were we asleep?

 

Hope that works out better for you than it did for me.

 

AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN !!!!!

I am having a hallelujah fit here bro!!!!! :applause:

They ask for one thing; we give it; they deny it and ask for another thing; we give it; they deny it and ask for another thing; we give it; they deny it..........:BangHead: :BangHead:

 

Yes. You were asleep.:sleeping_2:

 

1. Your debating tactics have become legendary on BB.

2. I'm done with this ME doctrine. DHK, all the best.

 

Fair enough TC. As long as you agree that ALL Christians will stand before Christ one day at the JSOC to give account for themselves and that you must strive to live a holy and obedient life as one of His children, you and I have no beef.

Fare thee well.

 

Romans 2:8-9 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Read carefully. You just said: "If the unsaved are warned...then that is absolute works salvation."
Who said anything about the unsaved being warned?
There is nothing in that verse but condemnation of the unsaved. They face the terrible judgement of God. They are condemned for all eternity: indignation, wrath, tribulation, and anguish are theirs for eternity. That they will suffer in hell because of their disobedience to the truth (of the gospel).

 

No, I don't preach a works salvation. You just get pleasure in accusing me of believing that.
I believe that a man's life is changed when he is born again. The Holy Spirit works within to change a person.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I once had a religion; now I have a relationship. That is what I preach. The rest you can figure out on your own.

 

Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Ok, DHK, having cited Romans 2:8-9, can you make a pretzel for us out of verse 10?

 

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The chapter contrasts the saved to the unsaved. The saved, who seeks spiritual things: glory, immortality, eternal life, will receive glory, honor and peace, not only in this earth but in glory to come.