Another verse that blows ME out of the water

[James_Newman]

The teaching is disowning the very conclusions his writings lead to. No wonder I got a C!

It's not rocket science. I will try it one more time for you and you can quote it for the Beav.

Matthew 18:23-35
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him a hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

That red part there, the primary event in the warning, is the part that Jesus is referring to when He says 'likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you'. That is the literal warning in the parable. Mock and scorn all you like, but you haven't made it go away. All the rest of the parable is teaching a lesson about forgiveness, yes, but the warning of what will happen if you don't is to be taken literally. A wise man will say 'I'm not sure what being delivered to the tormentors means, but I sure want to forgive my brethren their trespasses'. The fool will say 'Good thing I don't owe God any money, huh? What, me worry?'.

 

[TCGreek]

Your words

Parables are stories that usually have figurative or symbolic elements that represent literal subjects. The primary warning or action in the parable is literal.

Emphasis mine.

1. As I continue to apply your interpretive principle to Matt.18:24-35, this too I have found:

a. Verse 35, is not part of the parable, but is actually the conclusion drawn from the parable.

b. So we are back to 24-34 and where that leads. It leads to torment/torture for 10, 000 talents years worth of life in torment, for this is the primary warning or action in the parable that must be taken literally.

 

[James_Newman]

Your words Emphasis mine.

1. As I continue to apply your interpretive principle to Matt.18:24-35, this too I have found:

a. Verse 35, is not part of the parable, but is actually the conclusion drawn from the parable.

b. So we are back to 24-34 and where that leads. It leads to torment/torture for 10, 000 talents years worth of life in torment, for this is the primary warning or action in the parable that must be taken literally.

So you're an option 2 kinda guy. Thats fine. Anyone else who has an ear to hear, let them hear. I'm about to go home for the day. The 'conclusion' in verse 35 is just Jesus reemphasizing the point I'm trying to make, that God is going to deliver some folks to the tormentor.

 

[TCGreek]

Mock and scorn all you like.

I'll like for you to provide examples from my posts where I've mock and scorn.

 

[James_Newman]

I'll like for you to provide examples from my posts where I've mock and scorn.

It was an invitation, not an accusation.

 

[TCGreek]

It was an invitation, not an accusation.

"Mock and scorn all you like, but you haven't made it go away."

1. What do you mean this is an invitation and not an accusation?

2. We have been debating all along. Therefore, "Mock and scorn all you like" is relative to "but you haven't made it go away." This is no invitation but an accusation.

3. Can anyone else help with this interpretation? I might be wrong.

 

[James_Newman]

"Mock and scorn all you like, but you haven't made it go away."

1. What do you mean this is an invitation and not an accusation?

2. We have been debating all along. Therefore, "Mock and scorn all you like" is relative to "but you haven't made it go away." This is no invitation but an accusation.

3. Can anyone else help with this interpretation? I might be wrong.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. You have been very civil, and though I think you are making light of the subject, I was primarily referring to npetreley, who can't see what I type and honestly in my opinion is not a very sober fellow.

 

[TCGreek]

I've already made my point on Matt 18, following the logical end of James' interpretive principle and the conclusions are dangerously unbiblical.

The reader can decide for himself or herself.

Grace and peace.
tcgreek.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Notice it is only the ones who do not forgive their brothers their trespasses that are getting handed over to the tormentors in the parable.

So if we have forgiven men their trespasses, we ain't gotta worry about being handed over to the tormentors.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

After the rapture of the saints, if a saved person has to go to outer darkness/hell/lake of fire for a thousand years to pay for sins, then Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient.

My Bible tells me that the blood covered it all, not just a portion.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Notice it is only the ones who do not forgive their brothers their trespasses that are getting handed over to the tormentors in the parable.

So if we have forgiven men their trespasses, we ain't gotta worry about being handed over to the tormentors.

What if you don't forgive your brothers their trespasses?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

My Bible tells me if one regards iniquity in one's heart the Lord will not hear that one.

The tree is known by its fruit. Unforgiveness is a fruit not of God. I reckon that one who is unwilling to forgive never was of the Lord in the first place.

 

[Hope of Glory]

My Bible tells me if one regards iniquity in one's heart the Lord will not hear that one.

The tree is known by its fruit. Unforgiveness is a fruit not of God. I reckon that one who is unwilling to forgive never was of the Lord in the first place.

So, his works determine whether he's in the family or not?

 

[blackbird]

So, his works determine whether he's in the family or not?

No! But his forgivness proves that he is!!

 

[James_Newman]

Of course. And Christ was just talking to hear Himself talk.

 

[Hope of Glory]

No! But his forgivness proves that he is!!

Actually, I was addressing this statement:

I reckon that one who is unwilling to forgive never was of the Lord in the first place.

Funny thing about it is that this is given a free pass, but when I point out something that is actually in the Scriptures (such as don't commit adultery), I'm accused of being jugmental.

 

[npetreley]

I've already made my point on Matt 18, following the logical end of James' interpretive principle and the conclusions are dangerously unbiblical.

The reader can decide for himself or herself.

Grace and peace.
tcgreek.

Here are a few more interesting samples:

“The kingdom of heaven is like leaven...”

Obviously, the kingdom is like yeast. Using the ME principle of interpretation, OT yeast represents evil, therefore the kingdom is like evil.

45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant

The kingdom is like a merchant. This also means the kingdom is like evil, as you'll see in a moment.

44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Ah, so the kingdom is like a buried treasure. But it must be ill-gotten goods, because the man didn't simply claim it -- he had to hide it again and buy the field to make the trasaction appear legitimate.

Worse, in a very real sense, you can BUY the kingdom! Here's the tie-in with merchants. Merchants can be "bought", too. They're all about money. Flash an extra $50 and they'll cut you a special deal. That's an immoral (evil) aspect of being a merchant (that merchants can be "bought"). So, once again, this parable is saying that the kingdom is evil.

Thank you, ME School Of Parable Interpretion!

 

[skypair]

It's not rocket science. I will try it one more time for you and you can quote it for the Beav.

Matthew 18:23-35
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him a hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

...but the warning of what will happen if you don't is to be taken literally. A wise man will say 'I'm not sure what being delivered to the tormentors means, but I sure want to forgive my brethren their trespasses'. The fool will say 'Good thing I don't owe God any money, huh? What, me worry?'.

That's a good passage you cite there, James.

But let me suggest another meaning. The KoH, and parables for that matter, is about events here on the earth. I believe that "servants" refer to Israel. I believe that the "torment" happens to be the tribulation that is coming upon Israel and the world. The "servant" was about to have his wife and kids sold into bondage (one would think to Satan) but the king relented upon the servant's pleas for mercy.

So who did Israel approach to pay their debts without mercy? I find these KoH parables are usually historical so there is likely a real person or people that this "fellowservant" refers to -- maybe Jesus, maybe Ephraim vs. Judah. Perhaps it tells about something done during the 490 "silent years" (re: 18:22 that preface the parable), Malachi to Christ, at the end of which Jerusalem was destroyed by the "King" per Mt 22:7 -- I don't know.

I do know that God or Christ "tormenting" believers beyond this life is unscriptural. It surely does say something about forgiving others in this life, though.

skypair

 

[Hope of Glory]

I believe that "servants" refer to Israel.

Why?

(I only wanted to ask the question, but it didn't use enough words.)

 

[skypair]

Why?

(I only wanted to ask the question, but it didn't use enough words.)

:laugh: :laugh: I have that problem too -- so I just spew out more words! :laugh:

Why? Study the parables and you will see to correspondence. You know, we are "householders" or "goodmen" (Mt 24:43) - the ones "in charge" of the "house"/dispensation now. We are "virgins" espoused/promised to Christ, 2Cor 11:2. The church are "hired" in the "11th hour," Mt 20:6 (kinda interesting, eh?). Everywhere in the parables, Jesus uses some other term to refer to the church but always the same for Israel -- "servant."

Jesus, when He was here, said, "I call you no longer 'servants' but friends" for you know what I am doing, John 15:15. This is a critical change of symbology in scripture, don't you think?

skypair