Another verse that blows ME out of the water

[TCGreek]

I'm ready to deal with Paul on ME. Let's forget about those other stuff. Let's prove ME from Paul. That sounds reasonable to me.

 

[lbaker]

What if Peter had died the same night he denied Christ? What would then be the difference between him and Judas?

If Judas ever once believed on Christ, he was saved. If not, he wasn't.

To me, evidence suggests that he was included up until the time he betrayed Christ. In Matthew 26:50 , at the betrayal, Christ calls him "friend".

This makes sense to me, although I don't believe it adds any credibility to ME.

Les

 

[DHK]

This makes sense to me, although I don't believe it adds any credibility to ME.

Les

We are off topic. However Judas never believed in Christ in the first place. Christ made that clear during the Last Supper. Peter never stopped believing, even when he denied Christ. What he did was out of a moment of weakness in his flesh, and immediately repented of it afterward.

 

[lbaker]

I'll give you fifteen.

Matthew 18:21-35
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him a hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I have started a thread on interpretting parables in case your not sure what this means.

I don't understand what the above has to do with an earthly, millenial kingdom.

Les

 

[lbaker]

We are off topic. However Judas never believed in Christ in the first place.

Yeah, I guess maybe we are.

I think Judas did believe, how else could he have cast out demons, etc.?

But, I still don't understand what that has to do with proving ME.

Les

 

[Rufus_1611]

1. It has been well demonstrated and even admitted from some of you that Tozer does not believe in ME. So let's just put that foolishness to rest quickly.

What do you believe probation is?

2. Posting a list of verses proves nothing. The J.W.'s, Mormons, and every cult under the sun do the same thing.

It proves that we have not argued solely on the books that you or your like are encouraged to omit such as Matthew, Hebrews and/or James.

If you can't give a logical explanation of how ME doctrine is found in the Pauline gospels, then I will assume it is not there.

It can be done and it's been done on this board.

I have already come to that conclusion any way after two days of asking and getting nowhere. (clarification: this is my second day, and it is half over).

You can assume and conclude whatever you want. You've already made up your mind that those who believe in this, are heretical cult members. I'm not really in the mood to discuss with ya'll today. I'd rather have lemon juice poured in a papercut, listen to fingernails on a chalk board or talk politics with Carpro before I would desire to be on the receiving end of more rudeness and disrespect from you and your team.

 

[DHK]

Yeah, I guess maybe we are.

I think Judas did believe, how else could he have cast out demons, etc.?

But, I still don't understand what that has to do with proving ME.

Les

Jannes and Jambres, two of the "wisemen" of Pharoah could work miracles. Satan works miracles also.
He is the world's greatest imitator, and also has great power.

 

[DHK]

What do you believe probation is?

Does it matter? What is the price of tea in China these days? Show me how it is relevant to your case first.

It proves that we have not argued solely on the books that you or your like are encouraged to omit such as Matthew, Hebrews and/or James.

I encourage you to omit such books as Matthew because I am tired of going around in circles about dubious interpretations of parables where you insert or impose doctrine that isn't there. If you want to discuss doctrine do it from doctrinal books. Every major doctrine of the NT can be found in the Pauline epistles. Thus the challenge to you. Besides that, we ask you a simple question and you simply complain about the question. Why? Are we not permitted to ask MEers questions on this board. Do you think that you own the board, set the rules, and have the authority to say what questions can be asked and not be asked? Pretty arrogant aren't you!! Why can't you answer a simple question?

It can be done and it's been done on this board.

If that is true then why have't you provided a URL to where it has been done. Why can't you do it again? Why do you complain about it. Why can't you just provide an answer instead of complaining about the question for the past two days. This is very tiresome and this thread will close very quckly if this type of complaining carries on. This is a debate forum not a complaint forum! Remember that!

You can assume and conclude whatever you want. You've already made up your mind that those who believe in this, are heretical cult members. I'm not really in the mood to discuss with ya'll today. I'd rather have lemon juice poured in a papercut, listen to fingernails on a chalk board or talk politics with Carpro before I would desire to be on the receiving end of more rudeness and disrespect from you and your team.

I will assume your doctrine to be false merely on the merits that for two days I have asked one simple question and not one of you have had the intestinal fortitude to come forth and answer it. So let me put it bluntly (knowing that it will be offensive to some)--Are you all cowards or just ignorant? IT is a bogus doctrine that cannot be defended, isn't it?

 

[lbaker]

Jannes and Jambres, two of the "wisemen" of Pharoah could work miracles. Satan works miracles also.
He is the world's greatest imitator, and also has great power.

I know this is straying off topic, but...

From Mark 3:

14He appointed twelve—designating them apostles—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15and to have authority to drive out demons.

and Luke 9:

1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Sounds like whatever authority and power Judas had was given him by Jesus, not Satan.

Les

 

[Lacy Evans]

Yeah, I guess maybe we are.

I think Judas did believe, how else could he have cast out demons, etc.?

But, I still don't understand what that has to do with proving ME.

Les

It really was a side issue. We can't be sure. I think we were debating whether a Christian could sinreally bad, and Judas came up. There are plenty of other verses to prove that a Christian can die/or be found at Christ's coming, in great sin.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I don't understand what the above has to do with an earthly, millenial kingdom.

Les

In several of these parables there is a "day" when the Lord, Owner, "Boss" (if you will) comes back ane "reckons" with his servants. We contend that the so shall "my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." is a literal warning to the disciples, specifically Peter, but by implication, all of us.

If the time period and the audience are correct, then it is a proof text at least for Tozer's and Dehaan's VERY SERIOUS chastening at the JSOC. It would lend much support to Govett and I.M. Haldeman's Millennial Exclusion.

Being delivered to the tormentors sounds alot like "he will SUFFER loss".

Either way, it's not a salvation passage because we don't get "saved" by forgiving our brother.

lacy

 

[Rufus_1611]

Does it matter? What is the price of tea in China these days? Show me how it is relevant to your case first.

If you had scrutinized the sermon you would know why it's relevant.

The current price of tea in China is: ¥ 1.15 with a max bid of ... 70.42 (Source: http://supertart.com/priceofteainchina/index.php)​

I encourage you to omit such books as Matthew because I am tired of going around in circles about dubious interpretations of parables where you insert or impose doctrine that isn't there. If you want to discuss doctrine do it from doctrinal books.

Matthew isn't a doctrinal book? Any doctrine in Hebrews?

Every major doctrine of the NT can be found in the Pauline epistles.

According to whom, Hermen E. Tic?

Thus the challenge to you. Besides that, we ask you a simple question and you simply complain about the question. Why? Are we not permitted to ask MEers questions on this board.

Yes you are.

Do you think that you own the board, set the rules, and have the authority to say what questions can be asked and not be asked?

I do not think that I own this board. I do not think that I set the rules. I have no authority here whatsoever.

Pretty arrogant aren't you!!

If I thought such things perhaps I would be.

Why can't you answer a simple question?

I can, I choose not to.

If that is true then why have't you provided a URL to where it has been done.

If you are sincere about your desire to know, you can go through the myriad of threads and find it. Here's a bit of help...

Watchman Nee - Kingdom Accountability arguments made from the books of Timothy and Revelation
How to defeat the ME heresy - Kingdom Accountability arguments made from the books of Philippians and Romans
Who Appears at the Great White Throne? - Kingdom Accountability arguments made from the books of John, Galatians, & Revelation
Chastened at the JSOC? - Kingdom Accountability arguments made from the books of 2 Corinthians, 1 Timothy, & 2 Peter
Can a believer sin? - Kingdom Accountability arguments made from the books of James, Romans, Revelation, & Acts​

Why can't you do it again?

When it comes down to it...I just don't want to. You and npetreley have contracted what I like to call Herbavicious Evansgelitis. It makes the board no funicus.

Why do you complain about it.

In the prayer that you'll calm down and be nice again.

Why can't you just provide an answer instead of complaining about the question for the past two days. This is very tiresome and this thread will close very quckly if this type of complaining carries on.

If I thought you were going to close this thread, I just don't think I could bear it. Btw...I thought the OP of this thread was regarding 1 John 3:8 and how it blows "ME" out of the water. I have yet to see anyone demonstrate this.

This is a debate forum not a complaint forum! Remember that!

Yes sir.

I will assume your doctrine to be false merely on the merits that for two days I have asked one simple question and not one of you have had the intestinal fortitude to come forth and answer it. So let me put it bluntly (knowing that it will be offensive to some)--Are you all cowards or just ignorant?

I suspect in your mind, we are both.

IT is a bogus doctrine that cannot be defended, isn't it?

Certainly it can be defended.

 

[James_Newman]

I know a man that spent 6 years writing a book...
t
h
i
s
t
h
i
c
k
(sorry about the bandwidth.) that answers all these questions and even some that nobody on here has even thought to ask. I think that if you really want to 'defeat' ME or 'blow it out of the water' you ought to know all the arguments.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Does it matter? What is the price of tea in China these days?

The current price of tea in China is: € 6.98
with a max bid of ... 76.25

disclaimer: not to be confused with a butterfly's wings flapping in China. This price is scientifically derived from numbers only tangentially related to the actual price of tea in China, which we have found is profoundly more accurate than actual prices paid for tea in China. How this affects you, your child, or an acquaintance is derived, again, scientifically, by a patent-pending method we'd love to discuss, but can't, at this time. It has little to nothing to do with the technology behind the magic eight ball. A brief overview of the connections between the price of tea in China and these results (both the price and actual bearing on events) is illustrated here.

[FONT=Helvetica,Arial]Price of Tea in China, hosted by Supertart.com. ©2005[/FONT]​

Now don't you ever say that we never answer a direct question again.

 

[DHK]

Now don't you ever say that we never answer a direct question again.

Aah, Lacy. You have proved my point again. You do answer questions, and are quite capablle of doing so. But when it comes to one certain question you have also proved my point: you are totally unable to answer. From that I conclude that ME is a false doctrine, and from that alone. Why such obstinancy in answering a simple question? I suppose I will never understand. It is either pride, or it indeed is a false doctrine. Which are you willing to admit.

 

[npetreley]

Aah, Lacy. You have proved my point again. You do answer questions, and are quite capablle of doing so. But when it comes to one certain question you have also proved my point: you are totally unable to answer. From that I conclude that ME is a false doctrine, and from that alone. Why such obstinancy in answering a simple question? I suppose I will never understand. It is either pride, or it indeed is a false doctrine. Which are you willing to admit.

For those of us who have been gone a couple days, can you repeat the question? I'm curious as to which question they refuse to answer this time. They still haven't answered this one: "By whose righteousness do you enter the kingdom? Yours, or Christ's?" But I suspect you're asking a different one.

 

[Rufus_1611]

For those of us who have been gone a couple days, can you repeat the question? I'm curious as to which question they refuse to answer this time. They still haven't answered this one: "By whose righteousness do you enter the kingdom? Yours, or Christ's?" But I suspect you're asking a different one.

How would you know whether or not we answered that question? Aren't we all on your ignore list?

 

[npetreley]

I may not believe in ME, but I do believe that we can lose rewards based on what we do, and that teachers will be judged more strictly than the rest of us. I wonder what one loses if one spends their life teaching a false gospel of works?

 

[James_Newman]

There was a time when the words of Jesus held some weight with the followers of Paul, but I guess them were the good ol days.

 

[DHK]

For those of us who have been gone a couple days, can you repeat the question? I'm curious as to which question they refuse to answer this time. They still haven't answered this one: "By whose righteousness do you enter the kingdom? Yours, or Christ's?" But I suspect you're asking a different one.

Can you demonstrate from the teachings of Paul (the Pauline epistles) that ME doctrine is a viable doctrine?
In other words, does Paul teach ME? (simply put)
If he does, please show us where it is taught.