Answering the major objection against Calvinism

[J.D.]

J.D.'s response is in bold.

Was it now? Or could it be that Paul was anticipating the protest of a Jew who was being judicially hardened? read on...
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Jew or not, unregenerate man always protests against God's sovereignty.

I could not agree more. However, you must consider who Paul is addressing in this passage. He is not addressing the idea of God saving some random individual and rejecting other random individuals. He is addressing the idea that God is hardening his chosen people, the Jews, all the while saving dirty sinful Gentiles. So it not of the Jew who runneth after the law, but it it up to God who can show mercy even to dirty Gentiles.
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So, are you saying that this has some jewish-only understaning? Are you a hyperdispensationalist? Does this passage teach us that God can harden whomever He will, as long as he is a jew? Or can he harden Gentiles also? And, is this passage teaching us that God can only have mercy on dirty rotten Gentiles? Or can he have mercy on the Jews also?


This is a key verse. Why? Because it clearly tells us that God is speaking of judicial hardening. Have you studied the doctrine of judicial hardening? It is very different from the Calvinistic teaching men being born totally depraved and unable to respond. Being hardened is something that happens over time, not from birth. A man grows hardened only after continual rejection of the truth and judicial hardening of that individual only happens when God chooses to seal that man in his unbelief...which is show to be done for a greater purpose of mercy.

What do you mean, "judicial" hardening? Are you saying they were hardened because they deserved hardening? Who, then, among us sinners, does not deserve to be judicially hardened?

Was Pharoe a Jew? No. God hardens whom He will. Jew or not.

Men are not born hardened, they become hardened. If your doctrine of Total depravity were true then explain to me how a man who is born blind could "grow blind." Read Acts 28:21-28. Notice how it teaches that they grow hardened and especially notice what they might been able to do had they not grown hardened. Also notice the difference in the condition of the Jews and the Gentiles as they are contrasted in verse 28.
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The blinding was an act of God. He can blind them in the womb and keep them blind till the tomb. That's His call to make. When He does and how He does it is up to Him. He also opens the eyes of those He has chosen to receive light. Jews and Gentiles.

I was 19 when I first was confronted with the doctrine of Calvinism and I too had a similar "awakening" when reading Romans 9, but 10 years later I realized my error and I pray you do too. This has nothing to do with supporting Calvinistic doctrine. It has to do with God hardening Israelites while ingrafting the Gentiles. I'd be glad to talk it through with you if you are open to exaiming your own beliefs, but typically Calvinists are so entrenched in being right they rarely are willing to even ask "what if." I know because I was one of you....

Do you think that God hardening the Jews and ingrafting the Gentiles has nothing to do with Calvinistic doctrine? Let me ask you this - does God want to save the Jews? If so, why has He hardened them? Judicially or not, WHY HAS HE HARDENED THEM IF HE WANTS THEM TO BE SAVED?

As for your experience, you might have simply fell off the fence on to the side to which you were leaning all along.

 

[skypair]

When people are confronted with Calvinistic teaching their first and most difficult objection is typically something like this:

"How can God rightly condemn mankind with eternity in hell for not fulfilling a requirement that they are not even given the ability to fulfill."

This is an objection to Total Depravity. The belief that mankind does not have the ability to respond positively to the call of gospel message.

No -- this is an objection to "Unconditional Election." Even the "elect" CLAIM to be "totally depraved." If no man had the ability to respond to God's call, that would MEAN NO MAN!

But apparently God has given some "elect" men and women an ability to respond.

So let's focus the objection on the right issue.

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

No -- this is an objection to "Unconditional Election." Even the "elect" CLAIM to be "totally depraved." If no man had the ability to respond to God's call, that would MEAN NO MAN!

But apparently God has given some "elect" men and women an ability to respond.

So let's focus the objection on the right issue.

skypair

You got it wrong, skypair.
Unconditional election means election is not based on one's race, theology, creed, skin color, language, education, class, caste, conduct, misconduct, and all those silly little things fallen man has to divide himself from other men.

In Paul's words, "Jew or Gentile". Gentile a.k.a. Greek.

Total Depravity is exactly what Skandelon defined.

 

[npetreley]

Preach it, J.D.! Expose the darkness with light.

 

[J.D.]

Preach it, J.D.! Expose the darkness with light.

Don't encourage me too much. I may start SHOUTING!! They don't like that around here. I think Episcopalians run this board. :laugh:

Moderators: See the laughing face? It's a joke!

 

[Skandelon]

JD, let me go through each of your points one by one...

Skandelon: I could not agree more. However, you must consider who Paul is addressing in this passage. He is not addressing the idea of God saving some random individual and rejecting other random individuals. He is addressing the idea that God is hardening his chosen people, the Jews, all the while saving dirty sinful Gentiles. So it not of the Jew who runneth after the law, but it it up to God who can show mercy even to dirty Gentiles.

JD: So, are you saying that this has some jewish-only understaning? Are you a hyperdispensationalist? Does this passage teach us that God can harden whomever He will, as long as he is a jew? Or can he harden Gentiles also? And, is this passage teaching us that God can only have mercy on dirty rotten Gentiles? Or can he have mercy on the Jews also?

No, no, God can harden anyone, Jew or Gentile, I was only pointing to the context of this particular passage in which the Jews (generally speaking) are being hardened while the Gentiles are being ingrafted into the vine. What I'm trying to get you to see is that hardening is NOT equal to the Calvinistic teaching of what God does to non-elect reprobates.

In your Calvinistic system a reprobate would be born unable to see, hear, understand and repent. He would grow up remaining in this rebellious and unbelieving condition without ever a hope or any real ability to repent. He would be TOTALLY DEPRAVED from birth, right?

Now, here is the question you have to ask yourself JD. Is this the individual Paul is talking about in Romans nine when he wrote: "and he will harden whom he will harden???" In other words, is a Totally Depraved reprobate in the Calvinistic system equal to the hardened individual in Romans 9?

???Totally Depraved reprobate of Calvinism = Hardened Individual of Romans 9???

I will attempt to show you that they are NOT equal, thus showing that the typical Calvinistic interpretation of this passage is incorrect.

We can see the effects of the hardening process in many passages but lets look at Acts 28 for now:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Notice that they are NOT born calloused/hardened, they grow hardened over time. It also tells what their condition would be had they not become hardened..."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn."

You see, men are not born unable to see, hear, understand and repent, they BECOME like that over a long period time of rebellion.

Now, lets go back to the Romans 9 text: You assume that those being hardened in this verse are reprobates that could never be saved, but keep reading and you will see that those hardened can indeed be saved...my commentary is in bold...

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Rom. 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

So, far we have two groups...the elect and the others who are being hardened, right? Keep reading as we see what Paul says about these others who were hardened...

8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." Sounds bleek for those being hardened, right? But keep reading...

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

As I said, Paul is comparing the Jews, who are being hardened while the Gentiles (generally speaking) are being invited to salvation...but does that mean those being hardened are without hope? Have they stumbled beyond recovery? Read on ...

12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

You can clearly see that Paul's hope is that some of his brethern who are amoungst those being hardened may be provoked to envy and saved. Those being hardened (i.e Israel) are not necessarily going to hell. They are being blinded temporarily to accomplish a greater purpose...

I need to go now so I'll stop there for now and let you comment....
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[J.D.]

JD, let me go through each of your points one by one...



[/b]No, no, God can harden anyone, Jew or Gentile, I was only pointing to the context of this particular passage in which the Jews (generally speaking) are being hardened while the Gentiles are being ingrafted into the vine. What I'm trying to get you to see is that hardening is NOT equal to the Calvinistic teaching of what God does to non-elect reprobates.

In your Calvinistic system a reprobate would be born unable to see, hear, understand and repent. He would grow up remaining in this rebellious and unbelieving condition without ever a hope or any real ability to repent. He would be TOTALLY DEPRAVED from birth, right?

Now, here is the question you have to ask yourself JD. Is this the individual Paul is talking about in Romans nine when he wrote: "and he will harden whom he will harden???" In other words, is a Totally Depraved reprobate in the Calvinistic system equal to the hardened individual in Romans 9?

???Totally Depraved reprobate of Calvinism = Hardened Individual of Romans 9???

I will attempt to show you that they are NOT equal, thus showing that the typical Calvinistic interpretation of this passage is incorrect.

We can see the effects of the hardening process in many passages but lets look at Acts 28 for now:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Notice that they are NOT born calloused/hardened, they grow hardened over time. It also tells what their condition would be had they not become hardened..."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn."

You see, men are not born unable to see, hear, understand and repent, they BECOME like that over a long period time of rebellion.

Now, lets go back to the Romans 9 text: You assume that those being hardened in this verse are reprobates that could never be saved, but keep reading and you will see that those hardened can indeed be saved...my commentary is in bold...

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Rom. 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

So, far we have two groups...the elect and the others who are being hardened, right? Keep reading as we see what Paul says about these others who were hardened...

8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." Sounds bleek for those being hardened, right? But keep reading...

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

As I said, Paul is comparing the Jews, who are being hardened while the Gentiles (generally speaking) are being invited to salvation...but does that mean those being hardened are without hope? Have they stumbled beyond recovery? Read on ...

12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

You can clearly see that Paul's hope is that some of his brethern who are amoungst those being hardened may be provoked to envy and saved. Those being hardened (i.e Israel) are not necessarily going to hell. They are being blinded temporarily to accomplish a greater purpose...

I need to go now so I'll stop there for now and let you comment....
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Skandelon, I commend you for your careful examination of scripture. However, bringing the Acts 28 account of the hardening in to justify your view of "judicial" hardening does not work. You miss the fact that the reason man hardens his heart in the first place is because God has chosen that man to be hardened. Your formula is:

Man hardens, THEN God hardens.

But not so. A man's seeming self-hardening in the visible world is but a mere reflection of the invisible work of God - the source, the power, behind the man's hardening. Whether God works this hardening passively or actively makes no difference, it is still the work of God.

Your misunderstanding is in your lack of separating the mechanics of salvation and reprobation from the source or power. When Paul hopes to "save some" by some "means", in this case, "emulation", he speaks of the outworking of salvation, the visible work of God, the mechanics/machinations. Paul's hope that his brethren according to the flesh might be saved, and the means by which he hopes that God may use to that end, does not in any way overturn the power source of salvation which Paul had previously established as "the election of grace".

That this election of grace involved the choice of God in saving men through faith and not law is evident. But that God is the source of that saving faith is also evident, for the Gentiles had obtained that which they did not seek.

because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.

This should be a cause of great confidence in the Gentiles. But alas, what does Paul say to them?

Be not highminded, but fear:

And why should they fear?

For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

If the Gentiles have faith of their own power, they have no cause to fear. They may boast against the branches. But God may, and will in a time appointed, cut them off and graff in the natural branches through the same means by which they themselves came to be grafted in - through faith. And this:

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"until" indicates a time in which this event (the fulness of the Gentiles) will come. Who is in control of this "time"? WHO is the power behind this visible event? Is there any thing that man can do to prevent this event from taking place? NO! God in mercy has blessed the Gentiles through the gift of faith. At no time in history is God a reactor to human events. He is the actor, the determinant, the agent who acts upon history and man. And there will be a time, yet future, that God will turn in mercy to Israel, and according to his election of grace, save many of them, perhaps even "all" of them, at that time. THEN, IN GOD'S TIME, Israel (not just a remnant, but the whole) will be stirred to emulation and will be saved. This is all the workings of God.

But in no case can you apply this promise to Paul's Israel, for Israel of old was destroyed, and never turned to their Savior. Their blindess in part has lasted even to this day in the year 2007, and shows no letting up. They were cut off from God's mercy. Why? Because He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And we gentiles continue to enjoy His blessings which He has bestowed upon us without just cause in ourselves.

For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

 

[skypair]

skandelon,

You can prove how hardening works by just looking at this thread. :laugh:

The more J.D. protests, the harder he is against the truth. Indeed, Calvinism was meant to be a "stand alone" theology -- all the concepts that had to be made up were incorporated and, like "The Preacher's Wonderful One Hoss Shey," if one peice fails (heaven help us), the whole thing crumbles!

Here's what I've tried so far with Calvinists to try to reach some middle ground of truth (but again, they are "bunkerbuster" hardened in their theology):

1) Try to demomstrate the difference between soul (conscience) and spirit. If all men had consciences, all could "hear."

2) Tried to offer sovereignty on this wise: man has sovereignty over his own choices but God has sovereingty over the results. Man cannot get away from dealing with God's totally sovereign results (many of them warned of by God) regardless of what decisions he makes.

3) Tried to show them that, yes, faith is given by God alone but that it is given to hearers who BELIEVE. Believing is man's duty -- man's choice and responsibility whereby God account us, not Himself, responsible for our decisions.

4) And then, what this thread is really about -- that God must give some totally depraved people the "condition" of their "election" before they are "called." Whatever that condition is, it allows the "elect" only to hear the "effectual call" that is spoken at the same time as the "common (or maybe "sufficient") call." Just like Christ's blood is "sufficient" for all but "efficient" only for the "elect," so likewise with the call, I guess.

But know what? These Calvinists are "hardened" harder than granite! They oughta know about "hardening!" They'd be great for defending "Ft. Apache!" :laugh:

skypair

 

[johnp.]

You can prove how hardening works by just looking at this thread.

You can prove how hardening works just by this: If God loves all men ever born why does He, in that love, create people He knows are going to Hell? That's how one can prove hardening. The refusal to accept what is obviously logical.

What about an answer skypair?

john.

 

[skypair]

You can prove how hardening works just by this: If God loves all men ever born why does He, in that love, create people He knows are going to Hell? That's how one can prove hardening. The refusal to accept what is obviously logical.

I can't even tell who/Who you are saying is hardened in that question. Is it me for not agreeing with you or is it you for being an uncompromising Calvinist? :laugh:

I can answer you this -- He didn't know they are going to hell until after He foresaw what they would do during their lives. That's what the "foreknow" is all about in Rom 8:29 --- foreseeing occured before creation, the foundation of the earth.

So you would have to be asking me why He goes ahead and creates them anyway, right? Well, because He's already decided to make them before He foreknew what they would do. And it's not -- like Calvinism would have it -- that God doesn't try to save everyone of them! He does (Rom 1)!

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

I can answer you this -- He didn't know they are going to hell until after He foresaw what they would do during their lives

And where is the Scripture that says God's Omniscience is quasi ?

That God's knowledge begins with His creation's actions ?

Scripture please. Not conjecture.

And it's not -- like Calvinism would have it -- that God doesn't try to save everyone of them! He does (Rom 1)!

So, there is a point where God failed to do something He tries to do ?

Again, where is the Scripture that says God tries to do something, anything, but fails ?

Romans 1 ?

Well, here's Romans 1, with the verse numbers. Which verse number says God tried, but failed ?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:4 And declared F1 to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience F2 to the faith among all nations, for his name: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with F3 my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with F4 you by the mutual faith both of you and me. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among F5 you also, even as among other Gentiles. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:28 And even as they did not like to retain F8 God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [/FONT]

 

[johnp.]

Hello skypair.

I can't even tell who/Who you are saying is hardened in that question. Is it me for not agreeing with you or is it you for being an uncompromising Calvinist?

Whether you agree with me or not I don't know because you do not answer the question do you?

I can answer you this -- He didn't know they are going to hell until after He foresaw what they would do during their lives.

He didn't know? Cool. That's the only alternative isn't it. As long as you keep Him tamed. I have a follow up.

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11-13.

That's what the "foreknow" is all about in Rom 8:29 --- foreseeing occured before creation, the foundation of the earth.

Your definition of foreknow is rejected.

So you would have to be asking me why He goes ahead and creates them anyway, right? Well, because He's already decided to make them before He foreknew what they would do.

Bit careless of Him old chap. Look at the mess He's caused. Is criminal negligence involved or does He just get a golden handshake like some other usless managers get when their businesses go down the tubes?

Well, because He's already decided to make them before He foreknew what they would do.

That is not God. You are in error.

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Do you see that? in order that Paul and the rest were for the praise of His glory God predestined them and caused history to acheive that end. That is why He works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, so that His plan comes about. God didn't know? What sort of thing is he? ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

I make known the end from where skypair? From the beginning. He does not need to find out what is going to happen as He works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

And it's not -- like Calvinism would have it -- that God doesn't try to save everyone of them! He does (Rom 1)!

Yea sure, good lad ain't he? Took you long enough to admit open theism did it not? Are you embarrased by it?

You make me look orthodox.

john.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon, I commend you for your careful examination of scripture. However, bringing the Acts 28 account of the hardening in to justify your view of "judicial" hardening does not work. You miss the fact that the reason man hardens his heart in the first place is because God has chosen that man to be hardened. Your formula is:

Man hardens, THEN God hardens.

But not so. A man's seeming self-hardening in the visible world is but a mere reflection of the invisible work of God - the source, the power, behind the man's hardening. Whether God works this hardening passively or actively makes no difference, it is still the work of God.

I hope you understand that even some Calvinistic scholars would disagree with what you have said here...you seem hold to a view of double predestination which is even highly debated among those in your camp...

Nevertheless, I don't see how you can hold to this belief system when scripture CLEARLY tells us that God doesn't even tempt men to sin...you would have us believe God not only determines the temptation but the hardeness of the man's heart which can only respond by sinning. I don't see that biblically supported at all.

Additionally, you must recognize that the bible CLEARLY shows us that the hardening process is over a period of time and not from birth. It says men "become" or "grow" hardened/calloused. It goes on to clearly show the implications of that hardening process as being that which causes a man to not see, hear and repent and then tells us that it would have been possible otherwise. How can that be anymore clear?

Read Mark 4 and it is clear that had Jesus not chosen to speak in parables that the people might have repented...How is that possible if they were born unable to see, hear and repent??? How does a man born deaf grow more deaf? How does a blind man grow blinder?

Not only does scripture back up this understanding, but so does experience. Have you worked with children and youth??? They are typically much less calloused to the things of God...why do you think Christ talks about becoming like a child to enter the kingdom and about having childlike faith? We are not born hardened (unable to see, hear and repent) we only become hardened over time after continual rebellion.

Judicial hardening is when God seals one in that hardened condition so that they will not repent...Why would he do this? To accomplish a greater purpose through them. We see this done with Pharoah. God didn't have to do anything to make Pharaoh not want to let his slave labor go, however a few plagues could have convinced anyone. God didn't want him to be convinced until the passover was accomplished so God actively intervened to judicially blind Pharoah from the obvious truth of the plagues.

This was a foreshadowing of exactly what God does with the Jews. God seals them in their rebellious unbelief so that even thought they clearly hear and see the teaching of the Christ they can't understand or recieve them. He hids it from them in parables and sends them a spirit of stupor....WHY? To accomplish His purposes of redemption for the world. As Paul explains, he bound them all over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all.

That this election of grace involved the choice of God in saving men through faith and not law is evident. But that God is the source of that saving faith is also evident,

I agree. The source of faith is the gospel. "Faith cometh by hearing..."

The source of the gospel is God! He is credited with faith, I just don't see that this is ever taught as being irresistably applied.

But in no case can you apply this promise to Paul's Israel, for Israel of old was destroyed, and never turned to their Savior. Their blindess in part has lasted even to this day in the year 2007, and shows no letting up. They were cut off from God's mercy. Why? Because He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And we gentiles continue to enjoy His blessings which He has bestowed upon us without just cause in ourselves.

What about the great number of Jews in Acts 2 who Peter preached to saying "you crucified the Christ"??? One day they are yelling "Crucify Him!!!" and just a little while later they are repenting at the sound of Peter's voice. Could it be that they didn't come to faith while Christ was on earth because they weren't being drawn to Christ yet? Could it be that Christ was hiding the message from them in parables lest they repent (mark 4)? Could it be that Christ need to accomplish something through their unbelief before removing the hardening? Read Acts 28:28! See the difference between the hardened Jews and the Gentiles?

 

[dwmoeller1]

Sticking my oar in the water concerning hardening...

Hardening *cannot* be about sin. God does not tempt with sin.

So what is hardening? If an unregenerate person hates God and truth, what is more likely to cause even more hate and hardness to God and the truth? Being confronted with what they hate would be the most reasonable answer. So, hardening is not enticing with sin, but instead confronting unregenerate man with the truth.

 

[J.D.]

I hope you understand that even some Calvinistic scholars would disagree with what you have said here...you seem hold to a view of double predestination which is even highly debated among those in your camp...

I wasn't talking about predestination. I was talking about hardening. But I do believe in double predestination. And I am not in a camp and I don't plan to join one. The real debate is over whether God acts passively or actively on the reprobate in hardening/blinding etc. Notice I said that it doesn't matter whether it's active or passive, the results are the same. The bible clearly attributes hardening ultimately to God by either applying hardening directly to the sinner's heart or by allowing the sinner to continue unabated in his natural progressive hardening.

BTW God will open any heart He chooses to open, no matter how hardened.

God doesn't even tempt men to sin

I didn't say that. Satan tempts men to sin. God either allowed Satan into the Garden, or He sent him there. Either way, he was there because God wanted him there.

Additionally, you must recognize that the bible CLEARLY shows us that the hardening process is over a period of time and not from birth. It says men "become" or "grow" hardened/calloused. It goes on to clearly show the implications of that hardening process as being that which causes a man to not see, hear and repent and then tells us that it would have been possible otherwise. How can that be anymore clear?

It might be more clear if you could provide proof in scripture that hardening is a "process" as you put it, and not just repeatedly refer to Acts 28, which doesn't prove it anyway.

I can prove that hardening is of God.

Isaiah 63:17 (KJV) O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

John 12:40 (KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:18 (KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Read Mark 4 and it is clear that had Jesus not chosen to speak in parables that the people might have repented...How is that possible if they were born unable to see, hear and repent??? How does a man born deaf grow more deaf? How does a blind man grow blinder?

Man was blinded in Adam. "thou shalt surely die". And he did. And then he turned to fig leaf religion. Then God saved him with skins. This salvation was of God's own will and provision. Then God cast Adam out of the garden, and set Cherubim to guard and a sward to guard the tree of life.

Unregenerate man would gladly partake of eternal life without repentance if he could. But he CAN'T. He is disabled by his own sinfulness AND God's decree. Man may desire, and even attempt to approach, the tree of life; he is nevertheless UNABLE to do it unless God grants it to him.

Not only does scripture back up this understanding, but so does experience. Have you worked with children and youth??? They are typically much less calloused to the things of God...why do you think Christ talks about becoming like a child to enter the kingdom and about having childlike faith? We are not born hardened (unable to see, hear and repent) we only become hardened over time after continual rebellion.

Scripture and experience teaches me that people make false professions, and that includes children. Children are easy to manipulate. Whether a child is truly converted or not, only God really knows. Same with adults.

A child can be very hardened toward the things of God. The hardness of their heart becomes evident as soon as they have opportunity to express it.

Psalms 58:3 (KJV) "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Babies are born in sin with sin in them. They are sinners. The fact that they have not had opportunity to act on their Adamic nature does not make them any less sinful. A baby needs grace.

The evil of Hitler was there in his heart, even as he was a sweet innocent googly baby. Babies grow up to be sinners because sin is in them.

I've worked with children long enough to see this truth to fruition.

Jesus makes a commendation of child-like faith, a faith that is unreserved, complete in its trust. It is this TYPE of faith that we must experience in order to be saved. That's a God-given faith, which is complete and enduring.

Jesus was not saying that all children are saved. He was using child-like faith as an example of conversion faith.

Judicial hardening is when God seals one in that hardened condition so that they will not repent...Why would he do this? To accomplish a greater purpose through them. We see this done with Pharaoh. God didn't have to do anything to make Pharaoh not want to let his slave labor go, however a few plagues could have convinced anyone. God didn't want him to be convinced until the passover was accomplished so God actively intervened to judicially blind Pharoah from the obvious truth of the plagues.

This was a foreshadowing of exactly what God does with the Jews. God seals them in their rebellious unbelief so that even thought they clearly hear and see the teaching of the Christ they can't understand or recieve them. He hids it from them in parables and sends them a spirit of stupor....WHY? To accomplish His purposes of redemption for the world. As Paul explains, he bound them all over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all.

It's true that God hardened Pharaoh for a certain purpose:

Exodus 9:16 (KJV) "And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

There's nothing said about Pharaoh repenting and turning to God in the end. He was destroyed without hope. God did not have mercy on him. God killed him and thousands of his army in an instant and sent them to hell. The only mercy that he experienced was the years of earthly life that God allowed him to breath air.

 

[J.D.]

What about the great number of Jews in Acts 2 who Peter preached to saying "you crucified the Christ"??? One day they are yelling "Crucify Him!!!" and just a little while later they are repenting at the sound of Peter's voice. Could it be that they didn't come to faith while Christ was on earth because they weren't being drawn to Christ yet? Could it be that Christ was hiding the message from them in parables lest they repent (mark 4)? Could it be that Christ need to accomplish something through their unbelief before removing the hardening? Read Acts 28:28! See the difference between the hardened Jews and the Gentiles?

The church in Jerusalem consisted of maybe, at the most, twenty thousand counting women and children. What ratio to the whole would that be?

God saved a remnant of Jews according to the election of grace.

National Israel rejected her messiah. This rejection is seated in the political powers - the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the high priest, the temple, Herod, etc. And the general population also. Israel rejected her Savior because Israel's people, generally, but individually, rejected their Savior.

What was the difference between the Jews of the crucifixion and the Jews of Pentecost? Glad you asked.

"and they were pricked in their heart".

What was it about their hearts? Were they just some good ole boys? No. You said yourself that it was the same crowd that cried, "crucify him!" So what was the difference? It was something that had HAPPENED in their hearts.

Ezekiel 36:26 (KJV) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Hebrews 8:10 (KJV) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Acts 16:14 (KJV) And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

2 Corinthians 4:6 (KJV) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Jeremiah 31:33 (KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Skandelon]

Sticking my oar in the water concerning hardening...

Hardening *cannot* be about sin. God does not tempt with sin.

I don't understand this statement... The temptation itself is not "sin" it is only the inticment to sin, right? And God doesn't intice/cause/coherse men to sin. Wouldn't actively preventing someone from obedience be inticment to sin? Not listening to God's command is sin, right? If God is the one said to actively be causing someone to not hear and obey that would surely seem to fly in the face of what scripture clearly says God does not do...

Now, granted even from my view point God does actively harden men...however the way I explain this it is much less difficult to swallow, IMO. In my view judicial hardening is simply hiding or confusing the revelation of truth which could otherwise lead to repentance. So God is not said to have caused or inticed anyone...he simply lets them continue down their already self hardened path and makes sure no revelation convinces them to repent prior to His great purpose being served.

Let's look at another analogy. Suppose my 3 year old daughter was told that she is not to sneak cookies from the cookie jar. In another room out of sight I see into the kitchen that my daughter is looking at the cookie jar. She looks around the room to see if anyone is watching. As a parent I can tell what she is thinking...she is about to steal a cookie and she knows she isn't supposed to. Now, as a parent I could step into the room so that she see me prior to her committing his sin. Upon seeing me she would forego here evil plot and give up the idea of getting the cookie...at least until the next time she was alone. However, I decide to not step into the room. I remain out of sight to allow her to be tempted and then pouce into action to catch her with the hand in the cookie jar.

Now, by not stepping in at the moment I saw she was being tempted did I cause the temptation? No. I allowed it to continue, but I didn't cause it. I could have ended it my simply showing myself, but I didn't. This is like hardening. By simply hiding the truth (i.e. that I was present and watching) I allowed my daughter to sin. I'm I in any way culpable for that sin? No. I merely allowed it though I could have stopped it.

Could God have stepped into the 1st century and clearly shown Himself in Christ to make all the Jews of that time believe Him? Of course. He could have done a Damascus road experience with all the Jews if He wanted to. He didn't. Instead we see Christ telling his disciples to keep things quite until the right time. We see him hiding the truth in parables. WHY? If men are born deaf, blind and dumb to the truth why would he need to do this??? He did it because he didn't want them to come to repentance YET! He had a bigger redemtive purpose to accomplish through them first. Don't allow the context of that judicial hardening of the Jews cloud your view of men's inherent nature. Men are very much capable of hearing, seeing and repenting when confronted by the powerful gospel truth if they have not been judicially blinded.

 

[joycebuckner]

How can anyone say that God did not know what anyone was going to do when God is and always "all knowing". Why would God have Jesus go through what he did if God had everything planned out for us eternally ? He loves us and calls us unto salvation. We are not robots. We are given a choice. We except the salvation through grace that Eph. 2:8-9 tells us of or we don't. Maybe it is only I that understands the Holy Spirit came into people after salvation and still does today. No one has the Holy Spirit until after excepting The Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour.
The Holy Spirit called me unto salvation.......man, if I have ever felt anything in my life, I felt Him calling me that day.Once I yeilded to him, my life has never been the same.
Any way what a life changing experience it was. I know that I know what happened that day and my home is awaiting me some day.....
God bless you allraying:

 

[npetreley]

The Holy Spirit called me unto salvation.......man, if I have ever felt anything in my life, I felt Him calling me that day.Once I yeilded to him, my life has never been the same.

What enabled you to hear (feel) Him calling you that day? Why didn't you hear Him the day before? Was He not calling you on that day? Was your "line" busy? Were you unable to hear the day before?

 

[skypair]

And where is the Scripture that says God's Omniscience is quasi?

Nowhere. That's a false construct. Try this --- He knows everything that can be known. It's like "The Preacher's Wonderful One Horse Shey." Preacher built it knowing that nothing lasts forever. He made it out of the best of everything wondering which carefully chosen part would fail first. But since he was so careful, he couldn't know until it broke.

Same with God -- except He COULD foresee the thing all the way through to the end! He knew He was using "corruptible" materials. His hope was that all would hold up. But He allowed "corruption" for the sake of the creation itself -- Adam.

That God's knowledge begins with His creation's actions?

"God created... and He saw that it was good." Does that suggest that God learned that creation was well designed? "And God looked down and saw that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil continually..." Doesn't that indicate that God "looked" in order to learn?

So, there is a point where God failed to do something He tries to do?

In mankind, for sure! This just establishes that there are "wills in conflict" -- that God has allowed man to have an opinion of his own upon which to live his life. Now, God gives man His "opinion," too. Man could, and often does, believe and trust God's "opinion." God becomes sovereign over that life, right?

Again, where is the Scripture that says God tries to do something, anything, but fails?

"How many times did I call you to Myself like a hens her chicks, but you would not?" Mt 23 There are many, pinoy. You're not ignorant of this.

Well, here's Romans 1, with the verse numbers. Which verse number says God tried, but failed ?

Rom 1:16-20 gospel is the power of God unto salvation -- God manifested -- men knew -- men did not glorify Him.

skypair