Answering the major objection against Calvinism

J.D.'s response is in bold.

Do you think that God hardening the Jews and ingrafting the Gentiles has nothing to do with Calvinistic doctrine? Let me ask you this - does God want to save the Jews? If so, why has He hardened them? Judicially or not, WHY HAS HE HARDENED THEM IF HE WANTS THEM TO BE SAVED?

As for your experience, you might have simply fell off the fence on to the side to which you were leaning all along.

 

No -- this is an objection to "Unconditional Election." Even the "elect" CLAIM to be "totally depraved." If no man had the ability to respond to God's call, that would MEAN NO MAN!

But apparently God has given some "elect" men and women an ability to respond.

So let's focus the objection on the right issue.

skypair

 

You got it wrong, skypair.
Unconditional election means election is not based on one's race, theology, creed, skin color, language, education, class, caste, conduct, misconduct, and all those silly little things fallen man has to divide himself from other men.

In Paul's words, "Jew or Gentile". Gentile a.k.a. Greek.

Total Depravity is exactly what Skandelon defined.

 

Preach it, J.D.! Expose the darkness with light.

 

Don't encourage me too much. I may start SHOUTING!! They don't like that around here. I think Episcopalians run this board. :laugh:

Moderators: See the laughing face? It's a joke!

 

Skandelon, I commend you for your careful examination of scripture. However, bringing the Acts 28 account of the hardening in to justify your view of "judicial" hardening does not work. You miss the fact that the reason man hardens his heart in the first place is because God has chosen that man to be hardened. Your formula is:

Man hardens, THEN God hardens.

But not so. A man's seeming self-hardening in the visible world is but a mere reflection of the invisible work of God - the source, the power, behind the man's hardening. Whether God works this hardening passively or actively makes no difference, it is still the work of God.

Your misunderstanding is in your lack of separating the mechanics of salvation and reprobation from the source or power. When Paul hopes to "save some" by some "means", in this case, "emulation", he speaks of the outworking of salvation, the visible work of God, the mechanics/machinations. Paul's hope that his brethren according to the flesh might be saved, and the means by which he hopes that God may use to that end, does not in any way overturn the power source of salvation which Paul had previously established as "the election of grace".

That this election of grace involved the choice of God in saving men through faith and not law is evident. But that God is the source of that saving faith is also evident, for the Gentiles had obtained that which they did not seek.

This should be a cause of great confidence in the Gentiles. But alas, what does Paul say to them?

And why should they fear?

If the Gentiles have faith of their own power, they have no cause to fear. They may boast against the branches. But God may, and will in a time appointed, cut them off and graff in the natural branches through the same means by which they themselves came to be grafted in - through faith. And this:

"until" indicates a time in which this event (the fulness of the Gentiles) will come. Who is in control of this "time"? WHO is the power behind this visible event? Is there any thing that man can do to prevent this event from taking place? NO! God in mercy has blessed the Gentiles through the gift of faith. At no time in history is God a reactor to human events. He is the actor, the determinant, the agent who acts upon history and man. And there will be a time, yet future, that God will turn in mercy to Israel, and according to his election of grace, save many of them, perhaps even "all" of them, at that time. THEN, IN GOD'S TIME, Israel (not just a remnant, but the whole) will be stirred to emulation and will be saved. This is all the workings of God.

But in no case can you apply this promise to Paul's Israel, for Israel of old was destroyed, and never turned to their Savior. Their blindess in part has lasted even to this day in the year 2007, and shows no letting up. They were cut off from God's mercy. Why? Because He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And we gentiles continue to enjoy His blessings which He has bestowed upon us without just cause in ourselves.

 

skandelon,

You can prove how hardening works by just looking at this thread. :laugh:

The more J.D. protests, the harder he is against the truth. Indeed, Calvinism was meant to be a "stand alone" theology -- all the concepts that had to be made up were incorporated and, like "The Preacher's Wonderful One Hoss Shey," if one peice fails (heaven help us), the whole thing crumbles!

Here's what I've tried so far with Calvinists to try to reach some middle ground of truth (but again, they are "bunkerbuster" hardened in their theology):

1) Try to demomstrate the difference between soul (conscience) and spirit. If all men had consciences, all could "hear."

2) Tried to offer sovereignty on this wise: man has sovereignty over his own choices but God has sovereingty over the results. Man cannot get away from dealing with God's totally sovereign results (many of them warned of by God) regardless of what decisions he makes.

3) Tried to show them that, yes, faith is given by God alone but that it is given to hearers who BELIEVE. Believing is man's duty -- man's choice and responsibility whereby God account us, not Himself, responsible for our decisions.

4) And then, what this thread is really about -- that God must give some totally depraved people the "condition" of their "election" before they are "called." Whatever that condition is, it allows the "elect" only to hear the "effectual call" that is spoken at the same time as the "common (or maybe "sufficient") call." Just like Christ's blood is "sufficient" for all but "efficient" only for the "elect," so likewise with the call, I guess.

But know what? These Calvinists are "hardened" harder than granite! They oughta know about "hardening!" They'd be great for defending "Ft. Apache!" :laugh:

skypair

 

You can prove how hardening works just by this: If God loves all men ever born why does He, in that love, create people He knows are going to Hell? That's how one can prove hardening. The refusal to accept what is obviously logical.

What about an answer skypair?

john.

 

I can't even tell who/Who you are saying is hardened in that question. Is it me for not agreeing with you or is it you for being an uncompromising Calvinist? :laugh:

I can answer you this -- He didn't know they are going to hell until after He foresaw what they would do during their lives. That's what the "foreknow" is all about in Rom 8:29 --- foreseeing occured before creation, the foundation of the earth.

So you would have to be asking me why He goes ahead and creates them anyway, right? Well, because He's already decided to make them before He foreknew what they would do. And it's not -- like Calvinism would have it -- that God doesn't try to save everyone of them! He does (Rom 1)!

skypair

 

And where is the Scripture that says God's Omniscience is quasi ?

That God's knowledge begins with His creation's actions ?

Scripture please. Not conjecture.

So, there is a point where God failed to do something He tries to do ?

Again, where is the Scripture that says God tries to do something, anything, but fails ?

Romans 1 ?

Well, here's Romans 1, with the verse numbers. Which verse number says God tried, but failed ?

 

Hello skypair.

Whether you agree with me or not I don't know because you do not answer the question do you?

He didn't know? Cool. That's the only alternative isn't it. As long as you keep Him tamed. I have a follow up.

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11-13.

Your definition of foreknow is rejected.

Bit careless of Him old chap. Look at the mess He's caused. Is criminal negligence involved or does He just get a golden handshake like some other usless managers get when their businesses go down the tubes?

That is not God. You are in error.

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Do you see that? in order that Paul and the rest were for the praise of His glory God predestined them and caused history to acheive that end. That is why He works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, so that His plan comes about. God didn't know? What sort of thing is he? ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

I make known the end from where skypair? From the beginning. He does not need to find out what is going to happen as He works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

Yea sure, good lad ain't he? Took you long enough to admit open theism did it not? Are you embarrased by it?

You make me look orthodox.

john.

 

Sticking my oar in the water concerning hardening...

Hardening *cannot* be about sin. God does not tempt with sin.

So what is hardening? If an unregenerate person hates God and truth, what is more likely to cause even more hate and hardness to God and the truth? Being confronted with what they hate would be the most reasonable answer. So, hardening is not enticing with sin, but instead confronting unregenerate man with the truth.

 

I wasn't talking about predestination. I was talking about hardening. But I do believe in double predestination. And I am not in a camp and I don't plan to join one. The real debate is over whether God acts passively or actively on the reprobate in hardening/blinding etc. Notice I said that it doesn't matter whether it's active or passive, the results are the same. The bible clearly attributes hardening ultimately to God by either applying hardening directly to the sinner's heart or by allowing the sinner to continue unabated in his natural progressive hardening.

BTW God will open any heart He chooses to open, no matter how hardened.

I didn't say that. Satan tempts men to sin. God either allowed Satan into the Garden, or He sent him there. Either way, he was there because God wanted him there.

It might be more clear if you could provide proof in scripture that hardening is a "process" as you put it, and not just repeatedly refer to Acts 28, which doesn't prove it anyway.

I can prove that hardening is of God.

Isaiah 63:17 (KJV) O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

John 12:40 (KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:18 (KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Man was blinded in Adam. "thou shalt surely die". And he did. And then he turned to fig leaf religion. Then God saved him with skins. This salvation was of God's own will and provision. Then God cast Adam out of the garden, and set Cherubim to guard and a sward to guard the tree of life.

Unregenerate man would gladly partake of eternal life without repentance if he could. But he CAN'T. He is disabled by his own sinfulness AND God's decree. Man may desire, and even attempt to approach, the tree of life; he is nevertheless UNABLE to do it unless God grants it to him.

Scripture and experience teaches me that people make false professions, and that includes children. Children are easy to manipulate. Whether a child is truly converted or not, only God really knows. Same with adults.

A child can be very hardened toward the things of God. The hardness of their heart becomes evident as soon as they have opportunity to express it.

Psalms 58:3 (KJV) "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Babies are born in sin with sin in them. They are sinners. The fact that they have not had opportunity to act on their Adamic nature does not make them any less sinful. A baby needs grace.

The evil of Hitler was there in his heart, even as he was a sweet innocent googly baby. Babies grow up to be sinners because sin is in them.

I've worked with children long enough to see this truth to fruition.

Jesus makes a commendation of child-like faith, a faith that is unreserved, complete in its trust. It is this TYPE of faith that we must experience in order to be saved. That's a God-given faith, which is complete and enduring.

Jesus was not saying that all children are saved. He was using child-like faith as an example of conversion faith.

It's true that God hardened Pharaoh for a certain purpose:

Exodus 9:16 (KJV) "And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

There's nothing said about Pharaoh repenting and turning to God in the end. He was destroyed without hope. God did not have mercy on him. God killed him and thousands of his army in an instant and sent them to hell. The only mercy that he experienced was the years of earthly life that God allowed him to breath air.

 

The church in Jerusalem consisted of maybe, at the most, twenty thousand counting women and children. What ratio to the whole would that be?

God saved a remnant of Jews according to the election of grace.

National Israel rejected her messiah. This rejection is seated in the political powers - the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the high priest, the temple, Herod, etc. And the general population also. Israel rejected her Savior because Israel's people, generally, but individually, rejected their Savior.

What was the difference between the Jews of the crucifixion and the Jews of Pentecost? Glad you asked.

"and they were pricked in their heart".

What was it about their hearts? Were they just some good ole boys? No. You said yourself that it was the same crowd that cried, "crucify him!" So what was the difference? It was something that had HAPPENED in their hearts.

Ezekiel 36:26 (KJV) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Hebrews 8:10 (KJV) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Acts 16:14 (KJV) And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

2 Corinthians 4:6 (KJV) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Jeremiah 31:33 (KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

How can anyone say that God did not know what anyone was going to do when God is and always "all knowing". Why would God have Jesus go through what he did if God had everything planned out for us eternally ? He loves us and calls us unto salvation. We are not robots. We are given a choice. We except the salvation through grace that Eph. 2:8-9 tells us of or we don't. Maybe it is only I that understands the Holy Spirit came into people after salvation and still does today. No one has the Holy Spirit until after excepting The Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour.
The Holy Spirit called me unto salvation.......man, if I have ever felt anything in my life, I felt Him calling me that day.Once I yeilded to him, my life has never been the same.
Any way what a life changing experience it was. I know that I know what happened that day and my home is awaiting me some day.....
God bless you allraying:

 

What enabled you to hear (feel) Him calling you that day? Why didn't you hear Him the day before? Was He not calling you on that day? Was your "line" busy? Were you unable to hear the day before?

 

Nowhere. That's a false construct. Try this --- He knows everything that can be known. It's like "The Preacher's Wonderful One Horse Shey." Preacher built it knowing that nothing lasts forever. He made it out of the best of everything wondering which carefully chosen part would fail first. But since he was so careful, he couldn't know until it broke.

Same with God -- except He COULD foresee the thing all the way through to the end! He knew He was using "corruptible" materials. His hope was that all would hold up. But He allowed "corruption" for the sake of the creation itself -- Adam.

"God created... and He saw that it was good." Does that suggest that God learned that creation was well designed? "And God looked down and saw that the thoughts of men's hearts were only evil continually..." Doesn't that indicate that God "looked" in order to learn?

In mankind, for sure! This just establishes that there are "wills in conflict" -- that God has allowed man to have an opinion of his own upon which to live his life. Now, God gives man His "opinion," too. Man could, and often does, believe and trust God's "opinion." God becomes sovereign over that life, right?

"How many times did I call you to Myself like a hens her chicks, but you would not?" Mt 23 There are many, pinoy. You're not ignorant of this.

Rom 1:16-20 gospel is the power of God unto salvation -- God manifested -- men knew -- men did not glorify Him.

skypair