Answering the major objection against Calvinism

[Tom Butler]

Periodically in these discussions, somebody will describe faith as a work. It's happened again.

One scripture passage should knock this one for a loop. Ephesians 2:8-9.

8 "For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Some will suggest that the "that" refers to grace, not faith. Makes no difference. Faith is included in that which is "not of works."

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust and belief

It isn't to trust and believe in God through Jesus Christ and then work for our salvation.

Some people want to say you have to be water baptized, obey the Law and what ever they can include to earn our salvation.

We do things for God not to earn our salvation, but because what He has done for us.

We are save by grace through faith and that is it. Faith is to trust and believe in God over anything else even over what we believe.

We are water baptized as a symbol of the one that is greater that is of the Holy Spirit and fire, which does not come from man, but from God. We are not to go back under the yoke of the Law, but we have a better hope to draw near to God through Jesus Christ

 

[reformedbeliever]

Good evening Brother Refomed.
I didn't state we have a part in our regeneration I stated that YOU (actively and not passively) must believe in order to be saved as says the scriptures? Did you believe after you were regenerated (in the Calvinist view)? Is your believing God a passive thing in which God believes in Himself through you?? Not in scripture it isn't! The fact that salvation is given ONLY to those who will/have believed shows that you are involved but not the cause of your salvation.

That is why scripture states - YOU still must believe. Regardless of regeneration (that Calvinisticly allows one to now hear) - Gods salvation is brought forth by faith/belief that is excersized BY the individual who desires to recieve it. You must believe in order to be saved. You take part in your salvation because if you do not believe then you will not be saved.

That is why I state: unless God saves you without the need for you to believe then YOU having something to do in that process in which the fullness of God's salvation is applied to you.

If you will Believe on/in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
If you will Believe not then the wrath of God abides on you still.

Tell me brother, Can a man lost in the woods being lead out by his rescurer glory in that he is no longer lost because he believed the rescurer could get him home. Have you ever heard one take the glory?

Is the man drowing able to glory in himself, when he yeilds his life into the ability of one rescuing him? Again, have you ever heard one take the glory?

To say they have something with which to glory is false, for without their saviour they would be lost and diening with no hope if He had not come to them. They yeilded to the truth and believed and were saved just as it is with Christ our Saviour.

I'm going to try to answer Scandalon's question along with yours Allan.
I think that there are two aspects of faith in question. There is saving faith, and then there is faith that can move mountains so to speak.

Allan, seeing as how i've been involved in emergency medicine and emergency rescue for many years of my life, I think I can answer your illustration.

The rescue being spoken of (rescue is a better word for salvation in the english language) is likened to that of a person who has had a heart attack or has drowned or is unconscious in an auto accident. They do not surrender their life to the rescuer, but they are sure grateful about it later. Yes, we do believe, or surrender. That belief (saving faith), is a gift however, that results in salvation. That enabling... which results in life, was given while we were still unconscious so to speak, we had life breathed into us, we were resuscitated to life. When we regained consciousness so to speak, we believed... we could obviously see we were rescued.

I think we have to hold in a creative tension the two aspects of belief/faith. The saving faith/belief, is given to you by God. Then there is the faith/belief that can move mountains so to speak. That is something we grow into.

Some people call this an antinomy. God is sovereign, man is responsible. I believe that regeneration is accompanied by faith/belief. I hate to put a timeline on it, as it seems to occur simultaniously, but one has to be born again of God before this can occur.

 

[psalms109:31]

Jesus

Jesus is like that life machine, we can say we don't want to depend on Him for our life and have Him unplugged.

We can do that by just walking away.

 

[johnp.]

Jesus is like that life machine, we can say we don't want to depend on Him for our life and have Him unplugged.
We can do that by just walking away.

PS 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.

Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Dt 31:6.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

Luke 21:
10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life.

When judgement comes there will be no where to hide, because the Spirit of God is all around us.

Revelation 6: 15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

 

[johnp.]

1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Endure to the end

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

 

[johnp.]

RO 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

RO 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

RO 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

john.

 

[johnp.]

17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

PS 40:2 He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

John 15
The Vine and the Branches
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Ephesians 1:11In him we were also chosen,[Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Romans 11:17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[psalms109:31]

Jesus

PS 40:2 He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand.

john.

Jesus is what He gave you walk away from Him you have no life, and nothing firm to stand on.

 

[johnp.]

Keep your fear Psalms There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18.

1PE 2:7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, " 8 and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."

They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

But me, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

That's faith. 1JN 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Jesus is what He gave you walk away from Him you have no life, and nothing firm to stand on.

PS 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.

Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Dt 31:6.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Truth

When I have Jesus by my side I have nothing to fear.

Without Jesus I would fear everything.

You can deny what Jesus says if you want to, but you must endure to the end to be saved.

If you think i'm living in fear that is your opinion and nothing that I believe.

If we walk away from Jesus then we should be in fear, but because of that it keeps in Jesus and depended on Him.

I rather be in the dark with Jesus then in the light on my own

I have to believe scripture over you and scripture says i have to endure to the end to be saved, and I also I agree with the scripture you gave and I agree with the scripture that was given to you.

Jesus say's we have to live by every word that comes from God.

 

[Allan]

Periodically in these discussions, somebody will describe faith as a work. It's happened again.

One scripture passage should knock this one for a loop. Ephesians 2:8-9.

8 "For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Some will suggest that the "that" refers to grace, not faith. Makes no difference. Faith is included in that which is "not of works."

Yes, and periodically in these discussions, somebody will describe faith as a gift. It's happened again.

One scripture passage should knock this one for a loop: Ephesians 2:8,9.

8 "For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Salvation is the 'it' (singlular not plural regarding grace, faith and salvation) which is of God and not of or by works of the person.

Faith is not a work but it is required for one to BE saved, as salvation is THROUGH faith.

 

[npetreley]

Yes, and periodically in these discussions, somebody will describe faith as a gift. It's happened again.

One scripture passage should knock this one for a loop: Ephesians 2:8,9.

8 "For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Salvation is the 'it' (singlular not plural regarding grace, faith and salvation) which is of God and not of or by works of the person.

Faith is not a work but it is required for one to BE saved, as salvation is THROUGH faith.

We've been through this a dozen times. A study of the Greek shows that "that" points back to the entire phrase, "are having been saved by grace through faith". The whole thing is a gift, including faith. It's awkward to put that into English, but there you have it.

 

[Allan]

I'm going to try to answer Scandalon's question along with yours Allan.
I think that there are two aspects of faith in question. There is saving faith, and then there is faith that can move mountains so to speak.

Allan, seeing as how i've been involved in emergency medicine and emergency rescue for many years of my life, I think I can answer your illustration.

The rescue being spoken of (rescue is a better word for salvation in the english language) is likened to that of a person who has had a heart attack or has drowned or is unconscious in an auto accident. They do not surrender their life to the rescuer, but they are sure grateful about it later. Yes, we do believe, or surrender. That belief (saving faith), is a gift however, that results in salvation. That enabling... which results in life, was given while we were still unconscious so to speak, we had life breathed into us, we were resuscitated to life. When we regained consciousness so to speak, we believed... we could obviously see we were rescued.

I think we have to hold in a creative tension the two aspects of belief/faith. The saving faith/belief, is given to you by God. Then there is the faith/belief that can move mountains so to speak. That is something we grow into.

Some people call this an antinomy. God is sovereign, man is responsible. I believe that regeneration is accompanied by faith/belief. I hate to put a timeline on it, as it seems to occur simultaniously, but one has to be born again of God before this can occur.

So you are contending that unless a person is unconscious or unresponsive they are not REALLY in any danger or life threatening situation.

Your likening a person to an unresponsive or unconscious individual goes back (I know) to your understanding of 'dead in trespasses and sins.'

But let me ask you this in conjuction with that rendering of what 'dead' means. Are we not dead to sin as believers?

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Yet in our dead state to the world and sin we can still choose participate and do that to which we are dead to. Doesn't sound like its too dead if you can be influenced in your dead state.

We are dead to the world and sin but we must choose NOT to do those things we have done in times past. We are dead to them and yet can choose to do them if there is a choice to do so.

I don't want to rehash the whole 'what does dead really mean' issue, however it is of note as I stated that believers are called dead to the world or sin just as unbelievers are called dead to God. So if we are just as dead as those unbelievers we would have no problems with sin in our members or flesh and would never choose to do it because of our new nature. I'm going a little off track but it is just an example regarding being dead.

Now in relation to someone rescuing a person from a heart attack or some other trauma that was life threatening; I do know of people who did not WANT to be saved (due to heart attacks, loss of respiritory functions ect...) that were brought back to life - and stated so afterward. This is why I used the illistration of one who is in a life threatening situation that can choose to submit to the rescuer or deny them. In their (victims) current situation they are considered or likened to being dead because without intervention they have NO chance to live. But when the Rescuer comes and has everything needed to save that person, all they need is that person to trust/believe/submit to what they have for them.

Question for you brother on the two faiths:
Is there two types of faith - 1. saving (God given because you would believe Him) - 2. and actionable faith (moving mountians)?

The first appears shows your regeneration is pointless. If you in your new nature that is focused on God and loving Him will not believe then why have it if God must STILL give you what you would not do of yourself in the new nature otherwise?

Regeneration becomes pointless because you still can not believe God, trust God, or walk in Faith regarding the promises of God unless God give you Faith to go along with it. So regeneration before faith makes no-sense.

I personally think the faith in question is one and the same as the other. You take God at His word regarding salvation and also grow in lthat same faith by learning more about God and that which He desires you to be and do.

all the above are IMO (of course).

 

[Allan]

We've been through this a dozen times. A study of the Greek shows that "that" points back to the entire phrase, "are having been saved by grace through faith". The whole thing is a gift, including faith. It's awkward to put that into English, but there you have it.

Excuse me, but I do know the Greek and your argument is silly.
Anyone who actually knows Greek will not and could not agree with you, and is the same reason it has nver been received as absolute truth.

The word 'that' my friend, does not reference all those in the previous phrase, but the subject at hand which IS salvation. You will (or at least should note) all that was given of God referenced are in the singular and NOT plural. (it, The Gift). You are forcing (at least trying that is) your pre-text into the text but it is refuted by the context. Try again.

 

[Tom Butler]

The purpose of my post on Eph 2:8-9 is not to argue whether that refers to grace, faith or salvation. It is to argue that it is not of works, whatever it is.

And faith is never acquired by doing works, either way.

That said, I still believe that faith is, in fact, a gift from God.

 

[Allan]

The purpose of my post on Eph 2:8-9 is not to argue whether that refers to grace, faith or salvation. It is to argue that it is not of works, whatever it is.

And faith is never acquired by doing works, either way.

That said, I still believe that faith is, in fact, a gift from God.

I can agree but only in the sense that if God does not first come to man then man will not come to God. So in a sense it is a gift in that God first sought us and we can respond. But (IMO) it is dished out like the gifts we recieve for ministry in I Cor.