Any full preterists?

[cotton]

M4Him;
I've seen a webite on fullpreterism (I don't have it bookmarked though it should be easy to find). It was a good site with a reasonable argument. I couldn't remember though if this was the sole text or if they translated Dan 9:27 differently as well.

What I mean by 'reasonable argument' is that I've heard non-believers point to this text to show Y'shua as a false prophet. So I was interested in some of the things that the web site didn't address, such as resurrection.

Thanks,
Cotton

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by music4Him:
You'd think they would have posted a website to exsplain it better?

But, rest assured I ain't jumping in no snipe huntin' bag!

http://www.preteristarchive.com/

http://preterism.org/

 

[eschatologist]

cotton

As a full preterist I believe that the book of Revelation in its entirety has been fulfilled, that includes comings, battles, resurrections and judgments. The book of Revelation opens with imminent connotations(Rev.1:1,3,19), has imminency within the body of the book(Rev.2:16;3:11), and closes with imminent expectations(Rev.22:6,7,10,12,20). The same goes for Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. They are all about the same event that was going to happen in the same time frame-- the utter destruction of the city of Jerusalem, its Temple and the ending of their nation, covenant and theological system. This was the "end of the age" often spoken about. Not the future end of the world! It was also the "last days" of their nation and covenantal system.

In regard to the resurrection and judgment there is often missing in our English translation bibles key words that have key meanings. One such word is the Greek work 'mello'. Look up this word in your concordance(Strong's #3195). It means 'to be about to be', or it is about to happen. Here are a few verses where this word is mistranslated in our English bibles:

and I have the same hope in God as these
men, that there will be(mello-about to
be) a resurrection of both the
righteous and the wicked(Act.24:15).

As Paul discoursed on righteousness,
self-control and the judgment to come
(mello- to be about to be), Felix was
afraid(because he new it was soon!)
and said, "That's enough for now! You
may leave When I find it convenient,
I will send for you."(Act.24:25).

In the presence of God and of Christ
Jesus, who will(mello- to be about to
be) judge the living and the dead...
(2Tim.4:1).

The list could go on and on that use this very important word, mello(Heb.10:1,27; Jam.2:12; etc.)

You either have to take what Jesus and His apostles said was true and about to happen soon, or you can believe what many so called expert theologans believe. As for me, I will go with the Lord! If you have any further question do not hesitate to ask. Go with God!!!

 

[music4Him]

You either have to take what Jesus and His apostles said was true and about to happen soon, or you can believe what many so called expert theologans believe. As for me, I will go with the Lord! If you have any further question do not hesitate to ask. Go with God!!!

How exsactly do ya'll folks get saved (ei inviting Jesus into your heart, being water baptized, and Holy Ghost baptized?

 

[Ray Berrian]

If a person is a full Preterist and all prophecy is in the past including the judgment as to who is saved and lost, then I guess that a lot of sinners now and in the future will get off free and will never be judged for their sins.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed's Full Preterist theori"

70AD - Jesus returns and resurrects the saints
-- Millinnial kingdom begins
1070AD - Millinnial Kingdom ends,
-- eternal hell begins
2004AD - 924th year of eternal hell,
-- and we live in it

 

[eschatologist]

It is NOT prophesy that saves you nor judges you! It is the Word of God, and the Word of God ONLY!!! I am saved just as anyone else. I am judged by my obedience to His Word(Heb.5:9). In fulfilled eschatology I do indeed have a faith ONCE AND FOR ALL DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS(Jude 3). I do not have to wait thousands of years for this part of His word to finally come true. It is true NOW!!! Jesus ended Death and Hades(separation from God). This is the separation from God that occured as a result of the first Adam, for Adam and Eve did not literally drop dead as a result of eating the fruit, but they were driven from the garden and separated from God until the second Adam(Jesus) ended that separation by sin for His atonement of our sins on the cross. It is a done deal, accomplished-- paid for. As a result of emptying Hades and the judgment that ensued, I am now promised to go immediately to heaven to be with the Lord as He promised to His disciples. If Jesus has not come back as He said He would(Matt.16:27,28;Jo.21:22,23;Heb.10:37;Rev.1:7;etc.) then we to would have to go to Hades and wait for His coming, resurrection and judgment. Just look at these true and faithful words of the Lord:

No one has ever gone into heaven except
the one who came from heaven-- the Son
of Man(Jo.3:13).

In my Father's house are many rooms; if
it were not so, I would have told you.
I am going there to prepare a place for
you. And if I go and prepare a place for
you, I will come back and you to be with
me that you also may be where I am(Jo.14:
2,3).

You see here that prior to His statement no one had ever been to heaven except Himself. That included Enoch and Elijah and even David. And no one could enter there until He prepared it and came back to recieve them(us). So in my theology as a preterist, I believe He already fulfilled John 14, so if I am faithful when I die I go to be with Jesus. Can you say that without being in compliance to the above scripture? If so, how?

Once again, I have a faith once and for all delivered to the saints God has fulfilled His promise to me. Thanks be to God!!! Amen!!!

 

[eschatologist]

Absolutely shocked that no one made a comment on my above post. I thought for sure it would have caused a riot. I do not have to wait for Jesus to come and judge me. I am judged by His word. Prior to Jesus raising the first fruits saints(Matt.27:52,53; Eph.4:8; Rev.6:9-11), He first had to be made known to them and His Word. He then took them to a place under the alter but before God(Rev.6:9). Then He had to enter the Holy of Holies as our sacrifice before the Father as is in accordance to Jewish Law. After this was fulfilled, He then came in judgment upon the Jewish nation as He promised He would, then raised the rest of the dead from Hades to fulfill the resurrection, and threw death and Hades into the Lake of Fire. Now as a christian when we die we are judged by His Word and receive our new resurrected bodies.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Eschatologist: "So in my theology as a preterist, I believe He already fulfilled John 14, so if I am faithful when I die I go to be with Jesus."

That has nothing to do with being a preterist.
It is true as well for a futurist.
Have you died yet?
From my observation (I've not died either) that is
a messy way to be with Jesus.
As a futurist i know someday there will be a better
way to be with Jesus than to die. For in that day,
those who have not died will also be with Jesus.

 

[Ed Jones]

Eschatologist,

An odd sense of curiousity leads me to ask:

What was the mark of the beast? (Rev 13:16-18)
I don't recall in history where everyone was required to receive a mark to buy or sell. If you believe it is a allegorical reference, please interpret it.

What do you make of this verse?
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Again, please interpret the allegory if you believe there is one.

Ed

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

RC Sproul makes a good case for partial preterism in his book "The Last Days According to Jesus." I would recommend it highly - even if you don't necessarily agree with him on this.

 

[eschatologist]

Ed Jones

The mark of the beast is symbolic or allegorical, although it represented a particlar person in history. This person was Nero. There is a system of applying numbers to represent letters that is called gemetria. This was used very often in ancient times. Since the book of Revelation was written by a Hebrew and used numerous Hebrew symbols, words and meanings, it is safe to say that any form of gemetria coded messages to be found here would be in Hebrew. So taking the ancient Hebrew spelling for Nero Caesar and using gemetria you come to a sum total of six hundred and sixty-six(666). A coincidence? Not hardly. It also comes to Nero Caesar using the Latin as well. In Revelation 17, John tells us that at the time of the writing of this book it was the 6th emperor that was then ruling. That was none other than Nero Caesar. It was also these Roman emperors that demanded worship.

My take on Revelation 20:11: Often the heavens and earth did not represent the physical elements but was symbolic for the nation of Israel(earth or land) and its government or leadership(heaven). If need be I can provide you with support for this. God judged Israel for Her wickedness and unbelief. This had been done several times in Her ancient history by God who used the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians and Greeks to accomplish his judgements. Back then He always kept a remnent to carry on His work, and so He did with the utter destruction by the Romans in 70 AD. This time that remnent was the christians.

The whole New Testament is more than just a blueprint for salvation. It is also about a changing of covenants. This change was prophesied in the Old Testament, and became a reality in the New testament. Just carefully read the book of Hebrews and Galations to see exactly what was going on. The book of Revelation is the graphic depiction as the events unfold. We are told it was an event that was near or soon to happen(Rev.1:1,3;22:6,7,10,12,20). Yet for some reason we desire to keep God's plan incomplete and His words lacking in substance. I do not look up because my redemption is drawing near; I look up because my redemption is already here, and thanks be to God! I do not know about you, but I have a faith once and for all delivered to the saints(Jude 3). I can only hope that you do as well.

 

[Ed Jones]

Eschatologist,

I am familiar with "the beast" = Nero position. I was asking about the mark of the beast. What was the mark?

Regarding Rev 20:11, if the earth here is representative of Israel and the verse says "no place was found for them", that leads me to several more questions:

Why is the nation of Israel here today if the verse says there was no longer a place for it?

(Clearly this is a surviving Jewish remnant. The fact that they were able to reform and defend themselves against their hostile neighbors is significant. The result was the same as other times in Israel's history. If God was finished with Israel this would not have happened.)

What is the "new heaven and a new earth" of Rev 21:1?

What is New Jerusalem? (Rev 21:2)


Ed

 

[Ed Jones]

Originally posted by FriendofSpurgeon:
RC Sproul makes a good case for partial preterism in his book "The Last Days According to Jesus." I would recommend it highly - even if you don't necessarily agree with him on this.

I haven't read this book, but most discussions that I've had with partial preterists lead to obvious Bibilcal contradictions or full preterism.

Ed

 

[Gina B]

Eschatologist, what did you WANT people to say? Did you want someone to argue against it? You already know the thoughts of most people on what you have said. You said nothing shocking, you simply gave what most believe to be a heretical view of the timeline of events in Christianity. It's done everyday.
Gina

 

[eschatologist]

Ed Jones

The Israel you see today is by no means like the Israel of the first century. She is without a Temple and in reality Jerusalem is not hers. Most importantly she is without a covenant to God. All her geneological records were burned and destroyed by the Romans. Knowing which tribe you were from was most important to the jewish faith and their system of worship. She was destroyed because of her wickedness and disobedience. God divorced her because of her unfaithfulness and took for himself a new bride-- the Bride of Christ-- the church. This is the New Jerusalem in contrast to the Old Jerusalem which was old covenant Israel. The new heaven and new earth represent the church, with her leadership and body verses the old heaven and earth, the Jewish nation and its leadership and its theological system or body(nation). That is what the meaning is behind these verses:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished(Matt.5:17,18).

Now what this says that the heaven and earth must disappear for the Law to be fulfilled! Yet this physical heaven and earth has not been disolved so we still should be under the Law. But we are not under the Law now, but we are under grace. So what I see in this passage is that as long as old covenant Israel remained the Law was still basically in force. When the time came and it was fulfilled, Christ came and judged her and literally removed and destroyed her, and so began her spiritual separation(divorce) from a covenantal relationship with God. The heaven and earth(the Jewish nation and covenant) disappeared, and the Law had indeed been fulfilled. All had been accomplished. We are now a part of the New Jerusalem, the Jerusalem that is from above(Gal.4:26). At the time that the book of Hebrews was written the old covenant had not yet run its course, but it was soon to disappear(Heb.8:13;9:8), and God did in fact finally make it disappear by the invading Roman armies. The old covenant needed to be accomplished to establish His new covenant(Heb.10:9).

In regards to the "mark" that you refered to, it could have been a physical mark or something one needed to carry in order to show his/her allegiance to Nero. I do not know for sure. What we do know from Josephus is that the Jews had been making a special sacrifice and tribute to Nero but stopped doing so, then went into complete revolt against the Roman Empire. I do need to look more into this marking suject, because it is mentioned in other places in the bible as well(Ezekiel or Jeremiah comes to mind). I thank you for your interest. I hope I have made myself clear to you. This really is a sometimes difficult thing to explain. I by no means have it all figured out, but I am continuing to learn. Go with God!!!

 

[eschatologist]

Gina L

When you fail to understand a viewpoint because it goes against your mainline orthodox beliefs you immediatly brand them a "heretic?" Would you burn me at the stake as was done by the early catholic church? When you can answer the questions and statements that I have presented above, then I will look, and if convinced-- see the light(or your light). When you have put in the eschatological studies and written the papers on the subject as I have, maybe then we could understand each other. I apparently went a little further than you, as I looked and studied ALL the views before rushing to a decision! But to whip out the old "heretic" card because you do not want to examine something that could be truth-- well I trump your "heretic" card with the King-- the KING of all KINGS! Go with God, not with man.

 

[Ed Jones]

Eschatologist,

There is no historical mark of the beast either literally or allegorically. No one has ever required a mark on their hand or forehead to buy or sell anything.

It seems very ironic to say that there are no remnants of the the first covenant in effect on the very night that millions of Jews around the world are celebrating Passover. Despite the lack of the temple and geneological records, OT observances still go on. Again, the remnant lives on.

So what I see in this passage is that as long as old covenant Israel remained the Law was still basically in force.

Are you saying that the law was in force until 70AD? What about the time between the cross and the destruction of Israel? What did Paul mean when he said:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Note that he said "we", Jews and Gentiles. He wrote this and many other verses like it before 70AD.


BTW, I don't think that Gina simply pulled the heretic card. I think that your position is one that is ultimately unsupportable. If you line up the preterist position with the scriptures and simply follow all the resulting conclusions, you will find numerous contradictions.

Also, only the Scriptures are inerrant. We unfortunately are not. The length of time we have studied Scripture is not the indicator of the strength of our positions. It is only how well our positions line up with God's Word.


Ed

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Ed ---

Sorry, I disagree and would encourage you to read his book. Throughout the book, he consistently refers to the Scriptures - usually the Olivet Discourse in the synoptic Gospels.

BTW, Sproul is not a full preterist, and points out his problems (from a Scriptural standpoint) with full preterism. It is a very interesting and scholarly read. You may enjoy it.

I do not find a complete preterist viewpoint to be heretical, though personally, I do not agree with it.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Someone said, 'The mark of the beast is symbolic or allegorical . . . '

Hermaneutics will not allow us to take Genesis through Jude literally and then in the Book of Revelation allegorically. God's Word was written for the average person to understand. There are no hidden meanings or mysterious interpretations. Do not add to nor detract from the Word of truth. [Revelation 22:18-1

The mark of the beast is the number of a man. [Revelation 13:18]