ANY here hold to/teach 'Lordship salvation?"

[freeatlast]

I don't believe in Lordship Salvation as per John MacArthur, et. al.
Their proof texts are the same ones that teach discipleship, not salvation.
A new believer is not a disciple; not immediately. He needs to grow in grace and mature before he can come to the place of discipleship--the place that the disciples were at when he spoke to them.

To think that any believer can dislodge THE LORD, as Lord, is absurd.
Christ is Lord of Lords, King of kings. There is nothing you can do about that no matter how disobedient you may be. If you are a Christian Christ is your Lord. I believe in eternal security. I will not lose my salvation. Christ is Lord. He is not going to step off His throne and become a pawn or petty prince just because I disobey Him. Do I control God? Do you really believe that? No! Of course not! No matter what I do, or what any one else does Christ will always remain Lord. Thus the teaching of Lordship salvation is wrong.

Well not according to scripture. There is no scripture that teaches a person can get saved by accepting Jesus as savior. Every one says Lord. While it is true that Jesus is Lord even if not accepted as such on a personal bases He does not become Savior on a personal bases unless He has been received as Lord on a personal bases. That is why one must repent to be saved. Men are not accepted for salvation while they remain in rebellion against who Jesus is and He is LORD!

 

[DHK]

Well not according to scripture. There is no scripture that teaches a person can get saved by accepting Jesus as savior. Every one says Lord. While it is true that Jesus is Lord even if not accepted as such on a personal bases He does not become Savior on a personal bases unless He has been received as Lord on a personal bases. That is why one must repent to be saved. Men are not accepted for salvation while they remain in rebellion against who Jesus is and He is LORD!

Please provide Scripture for your philosophy.
Also, can you provide even one Scripture in the epistles that commands the unbeliever to repent in order to be saved.

 

[freeatlast]

Please provide Scripture for your philosophy.
Also, can you provide even one Scripture in the epistles that commands the unbeliever to repent in order to be saved.

Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance
Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, (not Savior Jesus) and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Greektim]

Please provide Scripture for your philosophy.
Also, can you provide even one Scripture in the epistles that commands the unbeliever to repent in order to be saved.

Why an epistle? Is that your canon within a canon??? I find the method of Jesus to be much more convincing. And Paul mentions repentance often. Cf. 2 Cor. 7:10; 2 Tim. 2:25. Also Heb. 6:1 & 2 Peter 3:9. And of course we know that was the primary issue in Jesus presentation of the rule of God. Peter repeats that at Pentecost (so you dispos can't get around this and say it is not for the church). Luke 24 mentions that repentance and forgiveness would be granted to the gentiles.

BTW... can you provide one epistle that addresses any unbeliever??? Your question asks that, but there is obviously no epistle that does address unbelievers. Howerver, there is within many epistles the soteriological teaching of repentance for salvation (cf. the passages above).

 

[DHK]

Why an epistle? Is that your canon within a canon??? I find the method of Jesus to be much more convincing. And Paul mentions repentance often. Cf. 2 Cor. 7:10; 2 Tim. 2:25. Also Heb. 6:1 & 2 Peter 3:9. And of course we know that was the primary issue in Jesus presentation of the rule of God. Peter repeats that at Pentecost (so you dispos can't get around this and say it is not for the church). Luke 24 mentions that repentance and forgiveness would be granted to the gentiles.

Not one of the verses that you quoted were for unbelievers to repent. They are all addressed to believers. For example, in 2Cor.7, the repentance is about the repentance of a believer which is far different than one coming to the Lord or finding salvation. Notice the Scripture in the above post by freelast--almost all from the Gospels or Acts. Why?

What about the Book of Romans. The entire epistle is a great treatise on the subject of soteriology. It is all about salvation. Often we use "the Romans Road" to show a person the plan of salvation. There are plenty of verses in Romans about salvation.
What is wrong with 1Cor. In fact, 1Cor.15:1-4 is a great summary of the gospel. What is wrong with that passage? There are many more.
The fact is that the epistles don't teach repentance as part of the gospel.
Eph.2:8,9 is also a good verse. What does it teach.

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Salvation is by faith and by faith alone. Repentance is not stressed in the epistles. It was in the OT. John the Baptist stressed it. It was in the Gospels before Christ died (pre-cross). The Book of Acts (like the gospels) is also a history book, and is a book of transition. The epistles are doctrinal books.
What is repentance in relation to salvation. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward to God. Repentance is when one changes his attitude of rebellion against God to one of submission to God as Lord.
When one gets saved what happens? He believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. What happens when he puts his faith in Christ? Christ becomes his Lord and master. Therefore he has already repented. He has changed his mind and said no to his former way of life, and yes to a life of submission to Christ. That is what the result of faith in Christ is. Repentance is simply the other side of the coin of faith. You can't have one without the other. That is why repentance doesn't need to be mentioned in the epistles. True faith includes repentance.

BTW... can you provide one epistle that addresses any unbeliever??? Your question asks that, but there is obviously no epistle that does address unbelievers. Howerver, there is within many epistles the soteriological teaching of repentance for salvation (cf. the passages above).

It doesn't have to. Romans 1 teaches all kinds of things about unbelievers, their characteristics, their acts, etc. Romans 2 teaches much about the Jews, though it is written to believers. Chapters 9-11 also teach about the nation of Israel thought the book is written to the believers at Rome.
1Cor.15:1-4 spells out the gospel.
Romans 10:13 says plainly: "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." But it is still written to believers. Believers can be taught about salvation, and that is what Romans does.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why an epistle? Is that your canon within a canon??? I find the method of Jesus to be much more convincing. And Paul mentions repentance often. Cf. 2 Cor. 7:10; 2 Tim. 2:25. Also Heb. 6:1 & 2 Peter 3:9. And of course we know that was the primary issue in Jesus presentation of the rule of God. Peter repeats that at Pentecost (so you dispos can't get around this and say it is not for the church). Luke 24 mentions that repentance and forgiveness would be granted to the gentiles.

BTW... can you provide one epistle that addresses any unbeliever??? Your question asks that, but there is obviously no epistle that does address unbelievers. Howerver, there is within many epistles the soteriological teaching of repentance for salvation (cf. the passages above).

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[HankD]

To say that Jesus is Lord is like saying that water is wet.
He is more than Lord, He is God come in the flesh.

The problem IMO with the current teaching of what is called "Lordship salvation" is that it can and does lead to the idea of sinless perfection.

Secondly and if those who hold to this doctrine do not teach sinless perfection, what is the point?

What is the yardstick by which we measure if Christ is indeed Lord of my life?

The yardstick is Jesus Christ Himself who alone can determine if we are a closet "worker of iniquity".

Third, a favorite expression and/or complaint which those who hold to Lordship salvation is encapsulated in the expression "easy believism".

I have said before that believing in Jesus Christ is the easiest thing I know how to do. In fact it is second nature to me and I just can't help myself, it is part of my innermost being.

What is the alternative? "difficult believism"?

As a matter of fact to believe in Jesus Christ is "impossible believism" according to human effort.

Either it is from the regeneration of the Holy Spirit or it is not "believism", all calvinists and ariminae would probably agree.

Lordship salvation IMO focuses on the wrong thing - justification.

Sanctification and to overcome the evil one is the difficult part.

But I understand the motivation behind the movement and IMO it should not be called "easy believism" but "phoney believism".

The tares (the look-alikes) have grown up in the field and affected the wheat.

And finally, there is a remedy:

Matthew 13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

James 5

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.​

HankD

 

[mandym]

The problem IMO with the current teaching of what is called "Lordship salvation" is that it can and does lead to the idea of sinless perfection.

And yet I have never seen this. and In fact I have never seen anyone who did not understand that we must have the intent in our hearts that Jesus is Lord.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[HankD]

And yet I have never seen this. and In fact I have never seen anyone who did not understand that we must have the intent in our hearts that Jesus is Lord.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

mandym, I understand what you are saying.

But because you have never seen it does not mean it doesn't exist.

How many babes in Christ have been "shelved-adokimos" because of their own misperception of what this doctrine means?

To identify the tares in order to remove them is not our call because we might uproot/shun those who are actually wheat.

Matthew 13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

We need to work with the babes in Christ, they need to learn to walk before thay can run, they need milk until they grow teeth for meat.

HankD

 

[mandym]

mandym, I understand what you are saying.

But because you have never seen it does not mean it doesn't exist.

How many babes in Christ have been "shelved-adokimos" because of their own misperception of what this doctrine means?

To identify the tares in order to remove them is not our call because we might uproot/shun those who are actually wheat.

Matthew 13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

We need to work with the babes in Christ, they need to learn to walk before thay can run, they need milk until they grow teeth for meat.

HankD

Scripture makes it clear. There is a false assumption that a "babe in Christ" cannot have the level of devotion that makes Jesus Lord in their life. This is just false and misleads people into believing they can have a Savior without a Lord (easy believism). Scripture, as I have posted, says otherwise.

 

[freeatlast]

mandym, I understand what you are saying.

But because you have never seen it does not mean it doesn't exist.

HankD

"But because you have never seen it does not mean it doesn't exist." Now that is rich :laugh:

Lordship salvation does not lead to a belief of sinless perfection. Lordship salvation teaches that a person has to accept Jesus as the One who they have surrendered to (God). They are turning to God and God says Jesus is the one who we put that heart of repentance on which is faith. Jesus said why do you call me Lord and do not what I say. If a person has not surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus they are not saved. God does not save people who remain in rebellion against Him and true repentance is not something that is simply done in a moment of time. True biblical repentance is a state which we enter into and never leave. It is impossible to be saved without it and it is impossible to be in repentance and rebellion at the same time. So Lordship salvation is what the bible requires for salvation.

 

[David Lamb]

Well, I believe that Jesus is my Lord, and I believe He is my Saviour. I don't believe it is possible to "have Jesus as Saviour without having Him as Lord", as some say.

However, when there have been threads on "Lordship Salvation" before, I got the impression that it means something different to what I said in my first paragraph. For instance, I seem to remember someone saying that it meant that you couldn't be saved unless you understood the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

What do you mean by "Lordship Salvation", JesusFan?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Please provide Scripture for your philosophy.
Also, can you provide even one Scripture in the epistles that commands the unbeliever to repent in order to be saved.

The epistles are written to believers; those who have already been saved. Therefore you are not going to get the commands to repent in them that you get in the Gospels and Acts.

However, I think 1Cor 6:6:9 or Heb10:26ff might be what you're looking for. You cannot continue in a state of sin after you have been saved. If anyone does, it is a sure indication that he has not been saved at all.

Steve

 

[Winman]

"But because you have never seen it does not mean it doesn't exist." Now that is rich :laugh:

Lordship salvation does not lead to a belief of sinless perfection. Lordship salvation teaches that a person has to accept Jesus as the One who they have surrendered to (God). They are turning to God and God says Jesus is the one who we put that heart of repentance on which is faith. Jesus said why do you call me Lord and do not what I say. If a person has not surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus they are not saved. God does not save people who remain in rebellion against Him and true repentance is not something that is simply done in a moment of time. True biblical repentance is a state which we enter into and never leave. It is impossible to be saved without it and it is impossible to be in repentance and rebellion at the same time. So Lordship salvation is what the bible requires for salvation.

Did Jonah rebel against God? Did David rebel when he committed adultery with Bathsheba? It is difficult to imagine, but David was in such denial that God sent Nathan to point out his sin. (2 Sam 12)

Was David lost when he was in rebellion? No. God did pronounce several judgments against David, the sword would never depart from his house, and the LORD would raise up evil against David out of his own house, and that the child would die, but God did not forsake David, he was not lost.

If works do not save us, then how can works keep us?

I am not saying we have license to sin, the scriptures tell us to depart from evil, but we are saved by trusting Jesus alone to save and keep us.

 

[freeatlast]

Did Jonah rebel against God? Did David rebel when he committed adultery with Bathsheba? It is difficult to imagine, but David was in such denial that God sent Nathan to point out his sin. (2 Sam 12)

Was David lost when he was in rebellion? No. God did pronounce several judgments against David, the sword would never depart from his house, and the LORD would raise up evil against David out of his own house, and that the child would die, but God did not forsake David, he was not lost.

If works do not save us, then how can works keep us?

I am not saying we have license to sin, the scriptures tell us to depart from evil, but we are saved by trusting Jesus alone to save and keep us.

apples and oranges. The OT saints did not have the Spirit indwelling them as we do.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
So yes we are saved by grace through faith but faith is not saving faith without repentance.

 

[Winman]

apples and oranges. The OT saints did not have the Spirit indwelling them as we do.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
So yes we are saved by grace through faith but faith is not saving faith without repentance.

I would disagree, David had the Holy Spirit upon him and prayed that God not take it away. (Psa 51:11)

I asked a few weeks ago to give a specific answer as to what sins we must turn from to be saved, but you gave a very vague answer.

Tell me now, and be specific, what sins must we turn from to be saved? How often can we sin and be saved?

This is the problem with those who hold to Lordship Salvation, they always insinuate that others (never themselves) are sinners and unsaved, but you can never get them to specifically state how sinless one must be to be saved.

So, tell me specifically what one must do to be saved, and how faithful and obedient they must be to be saved.

Are you always faithful and obedient to God?

 

[jbh28]

I would disagree, David had the Holy Spirit upon him and prayed that God not take it away. (Psa 51:11)

I asked a few weeks ago to give a specific answer as to what sins we must turn from to be saved, but you gave a very vague answer.

Tell me now, and be specific, what sins must we turn from to be saved? How often can we sin and be saved?

This is the problem with those who hold to Lordship Salvation, they always insinuate that others (never themselves) are sinners and unsaved, but you can never get them to specifically state how sinless one must be to be saved.

So, tell me specifically what one must do to be saved, and how faithful and obedient they must be to be saved.

Are you always faithful and obedient to God?

Straw man. Nobody is going to answer a question to something such as this because this is a straw man. Nobody teaches that you must stop sinning in order to be saved nor teach that one has to reach a certain level of sinless to be saved.

It's interesting to see some on here say that they disagree with Lordship Salvation, but then describe Lordship Salvation in what they believe.

 

[Winman]

Straw man. Nobody is going to answer a question to something such as this because this is a straw man. Nobody teaches that you must stop sinning in order to be saved nor teach that one has to reach a certain level of sinless to be saved.

It's interesting to see some on here say that they disagree with Lordship Salvation, but then describe Lordship Salvation in what they believe.

If he is not arguing for sinless perfection, then why bring it up? If he agrees that we all continue to sin, then why constantly insinuate that others are sinners who do not have true saving faith and are lost?

And get a new argument, you call everything a straw man.

 

[preacher4truth]

Let's preach DHK's gospel, to only believe, and no need to repent and see what happens.

Better yet, let's not.

Wait, it's already being done right now, and we have fornicators, adulterors, drunkards, and the like who also believe DHK's Gospel, who have believed, yet live unrepentant. They were told they don't need repentance.

I bet Joel Osteen would like that message himself. It sounds so sweet, like cyanide.

That is what DHK is teaching here: Repentance not necessary at all. If so, then it's not necessary after "salvation" either.

This is total error. It's no wonder churches are filled with so many "believers" who've never repented, and that preachers take note that most of the members are most likely lost.

 

[freeatlast]

I would disagree, David had the Holy Spirit upon him and prayed that God not take it away. (Psa 51:11)

I asked a few weeks ago to give a specific answer as to what sins we must turn from to be saved, but you gave a very vague answer.

Tell me now, and be specific, what sins must we turn from to be saved? How often can we sin and be saved?

This is the problem with those who hold to Lordship Salvation, they always insinuate that others (never themselves) are sinners and unsaved, but you can never get them to specifically state how sinless one must be to be saved.

So, tell me specifically what one must do to be saved, and how faithful and obedient they must be to be saved.

Are you always faithful and obedient to God?

Well here is the thing. Jesus did not believe the Spirit had been given to dwell inside of people yet.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Shall. The Spirit had not been given yet. Under the law the Spirit came and went. For the believer he remains/abides and because of that no believer can return to sinning.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

To be saved a person has to come to repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The evidence will be that they keep the commandments.
1John 2:3-4
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
You can listen to this is you have a question about keeping the commandments.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3