ANY here hold to/teach 'Lordship salvation?"

[The Archangel]

This is what man can not always discern. Only God knows what is happening here. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it. Certainly not man.

But what you're so willfully dismissing is that the fruit of the heart shows the heart. In that case we are not discerning in a vacuum; we are discerning based on evidence. And in the case of an un-repentant, sin's-side-against-God person...if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.

Your entire line of argumentation literally falls in upon itself. Your line of reasoning requires the absolute abandonment of any kind of discipline. As such, what would you say to Paul who is obviously engaging in church discipline in 1 Corinthians 5? Would you tell him that he can't know the sinful man's heart? Would you tell him he is wrong to judge his actions?

Though you wouldn't tell Paul, you are, in effect, telling him so here with your line of argument.

You forget that the heart is where the actions, thoughts, attitudes, etc. stem from. If those actions, thoughts, attitudes, etc. are "unrepentant" it is clear that there is an unrepentant heart--a heart that has not been regenerated.

An orange tree will produce oranges and an apple tree will produce apples. It is not "judging" to say that, though someone claims to be an orange tree (Christian) their fruit is that of an apple tree (non-Christian).

The Archangel

 

[freeatlast]

Where does Jesus say you can know?

Matt 7:20
Matt 15:19
We can know the heart because of the practice. Good trees cannot not produce bad fruit.

 

[Winman]

You usually make reasonable arguments. This is one not however, Repentance is dependent on context as is most everything else. Your comparison is apples and oranges.

Many people believe repentance means to turn from sin. This is not what repentance means. God repented, so it cannot mean this. Judas repented, yet he was not saved. Repentance for unbelievers means to turn from being self-righteous and believeing we can save ourselves, to realizing we are lost sinners and believeing Jesus only can save us.

FAL thinks (or implies) that repentance means to turn from sin. This would be like a sick man healing himself before he goes to the doctor. No, we are all sick in sin and cannot cure ourselves, we must turn from believeing we can do this to the Great Physician Jesus Christ. Only he can heal us.

 

[DHK]

Matt 7:20
Matt 15:19
We can know the heart because of the practice. Good trees cannot not produce bad fruit.

Over what period of time? Jesus didn't say. Trees don't produce fruit right away.

John said this:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)
--Apparently false teachers remained among the fellowship for some time before they left. But they were still there unknown to the true believers.

 

[mandym]

Many people believe repentance means to turn from sin. This is not what repentance means. God repented, so it cannot mean this.

Again, this is below your usual standard. Repent means to turn from something. The context determines what that is. Repent, with regard to salvation, is to turn from your rebellion against God, that most certainly includes our desire to be against God. In order to defend your position you have to narrow the definition down to one single context and individual sins. Someone who has a heart for God moves toward Him not stands still. Zacheaus is a good example.

 

[jbh28]

If he is not arguing for sinless perfection, then why bring it up? If he agrees that we all continue to sin, then why constantly insinuate that others are sinners who do not have true saving faith and are lost?

Who brings it up? I only see those that try to disagree with it bring it up. We all will sin, but will not make a practice of sinning(I John)

And get a new argument, you call everything a straw man.

Sorry, but that's not true. However, when you misrepresent the positions of others, that's a straw man. Stop giving straw men and I'll stop saying it. Don't cry when one says you are using it.

 

[freeatlast]

Many people believe repentance means to turn from sin. This is not what repentance means. God repented, so it cannot mean this. Judas repented, yet he was not saved. Repentance for unbelievers means to turn from being self-righteous and believeing we can save ourselves, to realizing we are lost sinners and believeing Jesus only can save us.

FAL thinks (or implies) that repentance means to turn from sin. This would be like a sick man healing himself before he goes to the doctor. No, we are all sick in sin and cannot cure ourselves, we must turn from believeing we can do this to the Great Physician Jesus Christ. Only he can heal us.

Yes! Our natural state does not desire God. To repent means to turn to God (Acts 20:21), not turn from sin. No place in the NT is anyone ever told to repent of their sin. Our repentance is toward God or to say to turn to God for who and what He is (Master over us). However we also must come to faith in the Lord Jesus, Not Savior Jesus and when that happens we are born again old things pass away and all things become new as we are given a new heart and we never again practice sin. The turning from sin is the evidence of repentance not the repentance itself and because we now have the Spirit residing in us we can never return to sinning.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

[freeatlast]

Over what period of time? Jesus didn't say. Trees don't produce fruit right away.

John said this:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)
--Apparently false teachers remained among the fellowship for some time before they left. But they were still there unknown to the true believers.

It is not about a period of time. It is about character. For a believer to sin it is out of character. A hog wallows in the mud. That is his character. A sheep does not, but even a sheep can fall into a pit. The difference is one is struggling to get out and the other is basking in their hearts desire.
When a true believer sins the world is shocked. The reason is that it is not common, not their character to be sinning. More then that when a true believer sins it shocks them, for the same reason.
True believers do not practice sinning. Their practice is to keep the commands. Again let me ask you to listen to this message. It is not long but it says it way better then I can.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
I know I have failed you in the past. I repent for that and ask forgiveness. I am now praying for you. God bless.

 

[DHK]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
--So you are sinless. As you say, you put yourself under great condemnation.

 

[jbh28]

...The turning from sin is the evidence of repentance...

Exactly. If I say I've repented of lying, and then keep on lying, I've not really repented of lying.

 

[freeatlast]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
--So you are sinless. As you say, you put yourself under great condemnation.

I am praying for you. God bless.

 

[jbh28]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
--So you are sinless. As you say, you put yourself under great condemnation.

Did he say that he was sinless? I looked and didn't see that in his post.

 

[DHK]

It is not about a period of time. It is about character. For a believer to sin it is out of character. A hog wallows in the mud. That is his character. A sheep does not, but even a sheep can fall into a pit. The difference is one is struggling to get out and the other is basking in their hearts desire.
When a true believer sins the world is shocked. The reason is that it is not common, not their character to be sinning. More then that when a true believer sins it shocks them, for the same reason.
True believers do not practice sinning. Their practice is to keep the commands. Again let me ask you to listen to this message. It is not long but it says it way better then I can.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
I know I have failed you in the past. I repent for that and ask forgiveness. I am now praying for you. God bless.

I didn't listen to it all. I realize where people become so confused.

He said: here are the birthmarks of how a person can KNOW he is saved (born again).
--That is not what this epistle is about, and thus all the confusion.

The epistle of First John sets forth principles to know how one can know assurances of salvation; not how they can know how they are saved. There is a big difference. There is a difference between How can I be assured that I am saved, and, how can I be saved. A. Rogers is addressing the latter, as do many here, and thus the Scriptures are taken out of context.

 

[DHK]

Did he say that he was sinless? I looked and didn't see that in his post.

The turning from sin is the evidence of repentance not the repentance itself and because we now have the Spirit residing in us we can never return to sinning.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

That is how I take his last statement as it is backed up with the quoted verse.

 

[Winman]

Repentance is like this; many times a person will have certain symptoms. A fellow I worked with had dizzy spells and his head hurt. People advised him to see a doctor, but he insisted he was alright.

Now that is how an unrepentant person is. They have an incurable disease called sin that is going to kill them, but in their mind they believe they are alright. They do not believe they are sinners, they believe they are good and will go to heaven on merit.

Well, one day this fellow really got sick and admitted he had a problem. He went to the doctor and had several severe problems. He is being treated now and is doing well.

His repentance was in realizing he was not OK and needed help. Of course he did not want to be sick any longer.

It is the same with sin. When a person hears the gospel they realize they are not OK. They are sinners in danger of damnation. They do have a change in attitude about sin, they see it will bring their ruin. They also realize they cannot cure themselves and turn to Jesus.

No one who loves sin will turn to Jesus, they think they are OK, just as my friend thought he was OK.

 

[freeatlast]

I didn't listen to it all. I realize where people become so confused.

He said: here are the birthmarks of how a person can KNOW he is saved (born again).
--That is not what this epistle is about, and thus all the confusion.

The epistle of First John sets forth principles to know how one can know assurances of salvation; not how they can know how they are saved. There is a big difference. There is a difference between How can I be assured that I am saved, and, how can I be saved. A. Rogers is addressing the latter, as do many here, and thus the Scriptures are taken out of context.

The message is dealing with how we can know, that is correct. The epistle is about dealing with the false teachings of the Gnostics and to expose them to the church so they are not confused into believing what they say. The passages in 1John makes it clear that no one can practice sin and be saved. If they are not keeping the commandments John says they are liars. We can know our own salvation and we can know the truth about others by looking at the practice of the person. That is the teaching.
. God bless.

 

[DHK]

The message is dealing with how we can know, that is correct. The epistle is about dealing with the false teachings of the Gnostics and to expose them to the church so they are not confused into believing what they say. The passages in 1John makes it clear that no one can practice sin and be saved. If they are not keeping the commandments John says they are liars. We can know our own salvation and we can know the truth about others by looking at the practice of the person. That is the teaching.
. God bless.

Look to your own selves and not to others. We are admonished over and over again not to compare ourselves to others. Why would John go against what the Bible already teaches. Comparing our salvation with others is wrong. That is not what this epistle is about. It is always about your relation to the Lord; never about your relation to others.

 

[freeatlast]

Look to your own selves and not to others. We are admonished over and over again not to compare ourselves to others. Why would John go against what the Bible already teaches. Comparing our salvation with others is wrong. That is not what this epistle is about. It is always about your relation to the Lord; never about your relation to others.

I am praying for you.

 

[jaigner]

DHK please stop trying to bully people with your status as moderator. No one is slandering you. Every time someone disagrees with you and proves their point with the word of God you accuse them by claiming they are violating the BB rules.

LOL...this is the truest thing you're ever said. This guy is impossible. And ridiculous.

 

[Winman]

Yes! Our natural state does not desire God. To repent means to turn to God (Acts 20:21), not turn from sin. No place in the NT is anyone ever told to repent of their sin. Our repentance is toward God or to say to turn to God for who and what He is (Master over us). However we also must come to faith in the Lord Jesus, Not Savior Jesus and when that happens we are born again old things pass away and all things become new as we are given a new heart and we never again practice sin. The turning from sin is the evidence of repentance not the repentance itself and because we now have the Spirit residing in us we can never return to sinning.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

I agree with you a true believer will turn from sin, but who does this work? I believe it is the Holy Spirit working in the man that causes him to turn from sin.

It is like all the sick folk who came to Jesus, their sickness represented their sin that was going to kill them. Were they able to heal themselves? No. When they came to Jesus in faith, he healed them.

We are all diseased with sin. Even if we stopped sinning and never sinned again, we have to pay the penalty for our past sin which is death. We cannot reform ourselves and make this past sin go away.

No, we have to see ourselves as already condemned, no reformation will save us. When we come to Jesus just as we are he takes away all our sin and heals us.

Once we do come to Jesus, we receive the Holy Spirit and a new nature that desires to obey God. This is why no true believer can continue in sin, his seed remains in him.