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ANY here hold to/teach 'Lordship salvation?"

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preacher4truth

Active Member
Funny thing is, people want to be saved from hell, so they seek a Savior to do that, then live in sin.

Then in latter years, when partying, and sinful lifestyles wane away to the aging process, maturity, and depletion of hormonal levels that contribute to living out of control, they then start to look like "decent citizens" and seek morality and behavior modification.

These same call those who look at the necessity of Him being both Lord and Savior as "legalists."

No one who falls under "their" rendition of "Lordship Salvation" believes that works are part of salvation. They simply believe He took over their lives, saving them from their sins, not just from the consequences thereof. They also believe that the things they practice follow those who are true believers.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Which shows you understand nothing about it. The phrase "make HIm Lord" refers to the submission and devotion to God which can only be found in Christians. If you are looking for a Savior but not a Lord then you are seeking the wrong God. It is not just about wanting to be saved from hell. It is about a devotion to God. Easy believism is not Christianity.
It is not Lordship Salavation a la Paul Washer vs. Easy Believism.
I believe in neither. One doesn't have to believe in either one.
That is like the false dichotomy so many here draw between Calvinism and Arminianism. If you are not a Calvinist then you are an Arminian. NOT! There are other options.

It is about Biblical salvation. Biblical salvation does not take either option.
 

mandym

New Member
It is not Lordship Salavation a la Paul Washer vs. Easy Believism.
I believe in neither. One doesn't have to believe in either one.
That is like the false dichotomy so many here draw between Calvinism and Arminianism. If you are not a Calvinist then you are an Arminian. NOT! There are other options.

It is about Biblical salvation. Biblical salvation does not take either option.

Biblical salvation requires a focus on Christ as Lord:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


New a true Christians can and do understand what immediate devotion to God is:

Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold."
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.


Godly biblocall repentance has a very specific fruit of its own:

Luk_3:8 Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

Washer, who is a Calvinist, does not hold to a works based faith. Many non cals make the same mistake cals do in that you try to discipher the mechanics of salvation to the point that you separate things into a chronological list. Cals say regen comes before salvation. Some non cals like yourself say that devotion comes after salvation. Neither is true. They are all one in the same. You try to separate things that are not separated in scripture. Do not lable someone with this works based salvation when you cannot clearly back up the separation in scripture.

Easy believism only looks for a get out of hell free card. Which is the exact way your posts come across.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
I said...

Originally Posted by Alive in Christ
Asolutely N0T!

Jesus IS Lord. Always has been, always will be.

We do not "make Him" Lord as the Lordship teachers erroneously promote.

The "Lordship salvation" folks are simply "re-packaging" works based LEGALISM, which of course should always be avoided.

We are currently living under the new covenant, not the old covenant.

We live now under the GRACE of God, rather then Law of God.

And Mandym said...


Which shows you understand nothing about it.

The scriptures make clear that the "Lordship Salvation" message is in great error, and has done great damage to many, many christians who get sucked into it.

The phrase "make HIm Lord" refers to the submission and devotion to God which can only be found in Christians. If you are looking for a Savior but not a Lord then you are seeking the wrong God. It is not just about wanting to be saved from hell. It is about a devotion to God. Easy believism is not Christianity.

Spoken as a true disciple of the insidious Lordship salvation message.

In due time the Lordship Salvation message will "eat your lunch".

When that occures, and you are ready to give up the treadmill of self effort, the living waters of Gods grace will be there to bring peace back to your christian walk.

God bless.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Biblical salvation requires a focus on Christ as Lord:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Never denied that it did.
New a true Christians can and do understand what immediate devotion to God is:
There is only one kind of Christian.
Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold."
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.
Zacchaeus was a Jew. It is not wise to use him as an example of Biblical salvation.
Godly biblocall repentance has a very specific fruit of its own:

Luk_3:8 Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
Like Zaccheus (a son of Abraham), this also speaks of "children of Abraham" and is also addressed to the Jews. It is not a good example for Biblical salvation. John the Baptist preached repentance, but it is not the repentance that Biblical salvation requires.
Washer, who is a Calvinist, does not hold to a works based faith. Many non cals make the same mistake cals do in that you try to discipher the mechanics of salvation to the point that you separate things into a chronological list. Cals say regen comes before salvation.
Notice you are the one with the chronological list here, and it is not even Biblical. You can't show one verse of Scripture to back up that statement. As your statement goes: "Cals say..." Not the Bible says.."
Some non cals like yourself say that devotion comes after salvation.
Ergo, you have no devotion to the Lord.
Neither is true. They are all one in the same. You try to separate things that are not separated in scripture.
You are the one that separated them, not me.
Do not lable someone with this works based salvation when you cannot clearly back up the separation in scripture.
It is not Scripture that backs up heresy. It is Paul Washer's own teachings. I have already pointed that out to you. When one teaches anything other then salvation is by grace through faith they are wrong. Washer teaches something other than that, therefore he is wrong. It is that simple.
Easy believism only looks for a get out of hell free card. Which is the exact way your posts come across.
And I said I didn't believe in that, so you have posted a false allegation. Why?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Biblical salvation requires a focus on Christ as Lord:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


New a true Christians can and do understand what immediate devotion to God is:

Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold."
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.


Godly biblocall repentance has a very specific fruit of its own:

Luk_3:8 Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

Washer, who is a Calvinist, does not hold to a works based faith. Many non cals make the same mistake cals do in that you try to discipher the mechanics of salvation to the point that you separate things into a chronological list. Cals say regen comes before salvation. Some non cals like yourself say that devotion comes after salvation. Neither is true. They are all one in the same. You try to separate things that are not separated in scripture. Do not lable someone with this works based salvation when you cannot clearly back up the separation in scripture.

Easy believism only looks for a get out of hell free card. Which is the exact way your posts come across.

:thumbsup:

I also agree with all you say here.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I'll give it a try:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.​

John 8:34
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.​

In both cases of "He that committeth sin" "committeth" is a present participle. Accordin to Dana and Matey A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (section 196) participles are adjectival and often represent a state of being.​

"Sin" has the definite article and is singular, which lends a difference to the meaning from being plural and anarthrous: the idea presumably is that this kind if sinning is sin as a way of life, a state of continuing sin.​

This has two possibilities.​

If I have an expired driver's license and a state trooper pulls me over and says "you cannot drive in the State of Washington without a valid license" doesn't necessarily mean that I am incapable of the act of driving a car. Obviously, he stopped me.​

However I cannot drive the car without a consequence.​

So, this may mean that I cannot (as a Christian) be in this condition without a consequence, presumably IMO, the sin unto death (my presumption) such perhaps as those in 1 Corinthians many of whom sinned and "slept".​

Or, the other: no Christian can enter again into this condition, sins (plural) are possible, but "the sin" as a state of being cannot be, IOW, they were never regenerated in the first place.​

However even the apostle John seems non-plused (or so it would appear) by those who seem to be in this condition yet were perhaps known as a brother in the past.​

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.​

Personally I see truth in both concepts, a Christian may appear to enter into this condition as the Thyatirans who had been seduced by "Jezebel" and "committeth fornication" and consequently had a death sentence (physical) over their heads.​

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

"except they repent of their deeds."

It is God's perogative, only He knows the condition of the heart, whether a slave to sin and a pretender or a babe in Christ who has gone astray.​

But to babes in Christ this kind of demanding of an "all or nothing" commitment may be too soon and they are unable to bear it and become prey to false teaching, cults, etc...​

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.​

There needs to be a better balance:​

True, the Father wants us not to sin, not even one sin...​

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

There is the advocacy of Christ for the little children.​

Many of those who have reached a measure of maturity have had a rocky road with several stumbles and wanderings (I am one of them with scars as a daily reminder).​

I have been blessed by the Lord with several patient pastors/counselors who counseled me from the word of God or I would have "slept" (and nearly did on one occassion) or been "put on the shelf" a long time ago. On the other hand I have been to the woodshed many times as well.​

Don't get me wrong I'm still a stubborn mule but have learned not to kick the staves.

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.​


HankD​

Best post on this thread!
 

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Paul Washer is both LORDSHIP adherant, AND a Calvinist???


YIKES!!!

Thats one confused puppy.

My introduction to Paul Washer was watching a sermon he preached to a youth evangelism conference. Here is an auditorium packed with 5,000 young Christians eager to get fired up for going out into the world and preach the Gospel and his opening remark is, "A hundred years from now the great majority of people in this building will be in hell."
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
My introduction to Paul Washer was watching a sermon he preached to a youth evangelism conference. Here is an auditorium packed with 5,000 young Christians eager to get fired up for going out into the world and preach the Gospel and his opening remark is, "A hundred years from now the great majority of people in this building will be in hell."
He sounds very confused.
 

Winman

Active Member
Paul Washer is both a LORDSHIP adherant, AND a Calvinist???


YIKES!!!

Thats one confused puppy.

All who hold to TULIP are Lordship Salvationists as the P stands for Perseverance of the Saints. They believe only those who persevere or endure to the end are saved.

They will deny this, but perseverance can have no other meaning.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
My introduction to Paul Washer was watching a sermon he preached to a youth evangelism conference. Here is an auditorium packed with 5,000 young Christians eager to get fired up for going out into the world and preach the Gospel and his opening remark is, "A hundred years from now the great majority of people in this building will be in hell."

Perhaps instead of observing, you should have obeyed?

Jesus preached the same sort of message in Matthew 7.
 
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Alive in Christ

New Member
I posted...

YIKES!!!

Thats one confused puppy.




My introduction to Paul Washer was watching a sermon he preached to a youth evangelism conference. Here is an auditorium packed with 5,000 young Christians eager to get fired up for going out into the world and preach the Gospel and his opening remark is, "A hundred years from now the great majority of people in this building will be in hell."

Un.....be.....leave...able

...and yet I am not surprised
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
No. You do.

He sounds on track with the 80% in church are probably lost, which is against easy-believism.
You will have to clarify which church you are talking about. Your own? 80% of your own membership are probably lost? You have lots of work to do.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
No. You do.
No, I am not confused. I am making conclusions based on the information given me. First, I don't believe in easy-believism, and second, when someone gives information I take the meanings of given words seriously. Given that premise lets see what the facts are.

1. There were about 5,000 Christians present. These would be born again believers.
2. They were eager. They wanted to serve the Lord, specifically in the area of evangelism--carrying out the Great Commission.
3. Paul Washer said that the great majority of these believers would end up in hell.

Conclusion:
Paul Washer doesn't believe in the eternal security of the believer.
Paul Washer believes in Lordship salvation which is a works-based salvation, accordingly one can lose their salvation because of their works. They don't persevere to the end.
Being a Calvinist he teaches things contrary to his own faith. See above.
He is very confused.
 

mandym

New Member
Lordship salvation which is a works-based salvation, accordingly one can lose their salvation because of their works. They don't persevere to the end.

uh no its not. Not even close. You are drawing your own flawed conclusion out of your intentional ignorance.
 
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