ANY here hold to/teach 'Lordship salvation?"

My NIV says:

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin because God's seed remains in him, he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God."

I John 3:9

 

Fine. Now explain what this means. This is exactly what I have asked FAL several times. Please define what practicing sin is. How often can we sin? How long can we sin? Are some sins allowable and others not?

Do you preach the gospel to every person you meet? Do you watch TV when we are commanded to pray without ceasing or to study the scriptures? I could go on and on with this, I think you know this.

So, tell me the difference between practicing sin and occasional sin. Scripture to support this distinction would be very helpful.

 

I keep saying that it is not within human ability to determine who is saved and who is not, who is in rebellion and who is not.
Judas is a good example, he fooled everyone but Jesus.

Peter is another example of a different kind. He denied the Lord with curses yet he was saved.

Some of the servants of God in the church at Thyatira were seduced into committing fornication and eating thimgs sacrifed to idols.

Jesus defines salvation infallibly:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Anyone who is born again is saved but not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is necessarily saved.​

Luke 13

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord,open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.​

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.​

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.​

While it is true that actions speak louder that words it works both ways.​

God only can decide.

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

The scripture indeed teaches discipline within the local body and separation from those living in sin and remaining in sin after counseling.

But we are warned to look first to our own status so as to not ourselves up for judgement upon ourselves with our own yardstick.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.​

James 2

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.​

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.​

HankD

 

Excellent post Hank. Thank you and blessings

 

I think the thing here is gentleman, that a true believer practices a lifestyle of repentance, not a lifestyle of sin which is after the pattern of the world.

 

John also says that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. So, we do sin, but to "practice" sin (IMHO) is to deliberately and with malice toward God do the things that God hates, and do them continually.

The believer will sin, but his heart's desire is to please God and he will be sorrowful and repentant. Our spirit has been born again of incorruptible seed which is God's Spirit, therefore our spirit is always pure and sinless, but our flesh wars against the spirit and we will sin in the flesh, but his attitude is not one of continual rebellion toward God.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

...and ladies...

 

I agree with this, and I believe most everyone here wants to please God.

But I do get the impression that FAL is insinuating most of us are living in continual sin. Perhaps he does not intend this, but this is how his posts come across to me.

Am I the only one who gets this impression from FAL?

 

Here is the "Lordship Salvation" that is being taught by Paul Washer, and perhaps by John MacArthur. It is based on Scripture such as these:

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. (Luke 9:23)

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:38)

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33)

I don't know about you, but when I was first saved I was not ready to forsake everything that I had in order to follow Christ. In fact, as a missionary who challenges people now to go to the mission field and serve Christ, I find very few are willing to obey the Great Commission--forsaking all and following Christ.

These commands are for discipleship, not salvation. Yet the advocates of Lordship Salvation use them for salvation. That is wrong; they are taken out of their context, for Jesus clearly speaks to his disciples. Over and over again he uses the phrase: "cannot be my disciple." It doesn't say "cannot be saved." This is what is proclaimed as Lordship Salvation today, and it is wrong.

 

Every Christian should be a disciple not just mature ones. Disciple and salvation are not separate issues. You cannot be one without the other.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

They are separate issues. Discipleship has to do with sanctification--a continual growing process in the life of the believer. Were you fully prepared to be a pastor, evangelist, missionary, etc., the day that you were saved??

 

Not exactly, I get the impression that he thinks he doesn't sin very much or even at all. Look at this post from another thread:

Notice the phrase 'prior to salvation when I sinned'. This could merely be clumsy writing or it could be interpreted as meaning since salvation he does not sin. A better way to phrase this would have been 'When I sinned prior to salvation..."

Notice he then use the third person "a believer" when referring to sinning after salvation, he doesn't refer to himself. Just prior to that he was speaking of his own experiences with sin as an unbeliever, then he switches away from himself to "a believer may sin from time to time"... He could have written, "Since I became a believer I may sin from time to time" but he chose not to do so.

 

Asolutely N0T!

Jesus IS Lord. Always has been, always will be.

We do not "make Him" Lord as the Lordship teachers erroneously promote.

The "Lordship salvation" folks are simply "re-packaging" works based LEGALISM, which of course should always be avoided.

We are currently living under the new covenant, not the old covenant.

We live now under the GRACE of God, rather then Law of God.

 

That's right.
If I have to: forsake all, take up my cross, hate my father and mother, deny myself, etc. in order to be saved, then that is a works-based salvation.

Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourselves.

 

In the Light... (quoting FAL)

It really sounds to me that freeatlast is saying that when he sins now his reaction is different than when he sinned as a lost person. Not saying that he never sins anymore.

 

I'll give it a try:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.​

John 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.​

In both cases of "He that committeth sin" "committeth" is a present participle. Accordin to Dana and Matey A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (section 196) participles are adjectival and often represent a state of being.​

"Sin" has the definite article and is singular, which lends a difference to the meaning from being plural and anarthrous: the idea presumably is that this kind if sinning is sin as a way of life, a state of continuing sin.​

This has two possibilities. ​

If I have an expired driver's license and a state trooper pulls me over and says "you cannot drive in the State of Washington without a valid license" doesn't necessarily mean that I am incapable of the act of driving a car. Obviously, he stopped me.​

However I cannot drive the car without a consequence.​

So, this may mean that I cannot (as a Christian) be in this condition without a consequence, presumably IMO, the sin unto death (my presumption) such perhaps as those in 1 Corinthians many of whom sinned and "slept".​

Or, the other: no Christian can enter again into this condition, sins (plural) are possible, but "the sin" as a state of being cannot be, IOW, they were never regenerated in the first place.​

However even the apostle John seems non-plused (or so it would appear) by those who seem to be in this condition yet were perhaps known as a brother in the past.​

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.​

Personally I see truth in both concepts, a Christian may appear to enter into this condition as the Thyatirans who had been seduced by "Jezebel" and "committeth fornication" and consequently had a death sentence (physical) over their heads.​

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.​

"except they repent of their deeds."​

It is God's perogative, only He knows the condition of the heart, whether a slave to sin and a pretender or a babe in Christ who has gone astray.​

But to babes in Christ this kind of demanding of an "all or nothing" commitment may be too soon and they are unable to bear it and become prey to false teaching, cults, etc...​

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.​

There needs to be a better balance:​

True, the Father wants us not to sin, not even one sin...​

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

There is the advocacy of Christ for the little children.​

Many of those who have reached a measure of maturity have had a rocky road with several stumbles and wanderings (I am one of them with scars as a daily reminder). ​

I have been blessed by the Lord with several patient pastors/counselors who counseled me from the word of God or I would have "slept" (and nearly did on one occassion) or been "put on the shelf" a long time ago. On the other hand I have been to the woodshed many times as well.​

Don't get me wrong I'm still a stubborn mule but have learned not to kick the staves.

2 Timothy 2

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.​

HankD​

 

Which shows you understand nothing about it. The phrase "make HIm Lord" refers to the submission and devotion to God which can only be found in Christians. If you are looking for a Savior but not a Lord then you are seeking the wrong God. It is not just about wanting to be saved from hell. It is about a devotion to God. Easy believism is not Christianity.