-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Any 'major" Differences Between the TR/CT For A greek text?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
I think it is very irrational to argue for a translation. Arguing for a manuscript is logical and I believe a good debate. Yet, a translation is never good.
For me, I would never strongly disagree with someone over manuscript preferences (at least not the major manuscripts), but when we get to translations I most often think the person is ignorant of Greek and Hebrew and the difficulty in translation as well as the limitations of English.
I would sit down and talk to your Pastor in a respectful dialog.
I have. He isn't going to change his mind. He believes the KJV is the only reliable version.
I will pray for you. Personally, this is a tough issue. Personally, I am not sure how I would handle this situation, but I would be curious if you would be looked down upon if you used a different version and if you would cause problems by using a different version.
I would ask the Pastor that if you disagreed with him whether he believes you should leave the church or remain. This issue is such that such questions should be asked.
No. I don't think he would want me to leave the church but I'm thinking about it. It has caused some problems in my SS class because my teacher is KJVO as well. In fact most people have swayed that way over the last couple of years. It didn't used to be that way.
Something happened this morning that really bothered me. The pastor was preaching from 1John this morning and came to this verse:
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
He said the reason the word cleanseth contained "eth" was because it indicated an ongoing action and that's why the KJV was the best translation. He said that this word shows that Jesus is continually cleansing us from sin. Everything I have been able to find says that "eth" is a verb tense indicating 3rd person, nothing about an ongoing action.
No. The -eth ending was used only as a "marker" to indicate the subject of the verb is in the third person.
English uses a number of different devices to indicate continuing action, none of which would have relied upon -eth.
In the current case, the translators used an if/then construction to indicate that something will happen if the conditions are met. Cleanses works just as well as cleanseth for that usage.
Maybe your pastor is trying to make some point from the Greek grammar, but the English meaning is exactly the same whether you use cleanseth or cleanses.
This is a new argument for me, but I suspect if you looked at other uses of -eth in the KJV you would find instances where the suffix did not indicate a continuing action.
English uses a number of different devices to indicate continuing action, none of which would have relied upon -eth.
In the current case, the translators used an if/then construction to indicate that something will happen if the conditions are met. Cleanses works just as well as cleanseth for that usage.
Maybe your pastor is trying to make some point from the Greek grammar, but the English meaning is exactly the same whether you use cleanseth or cleanses.
This is a new argument for me, but I suspect if you looked at other uses of -eth in the KJV you would find instances where the suffix did not indicate a continuing action.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hmmmm. I thought I would get more response to my posts about my pastor's new stance. Feel free to advise me. I need it.raying:
Is it just something he has changed personally, or does he speak of it often in church?
It has gone from speaking of it occasionally to more and more frequency in the last yr or so. In one SS class I attended a few months ago, I was not allowed to read from my NKJV since it wasn't KJV. The teacher I have now has also been more vocal about it recently. The pastor got his PHD last year and is now teaching some seminary classes at our church and is planning for it to become a school. His recent doctrinal statement is: "While we recognize there are many versions of the Bible available, we affirm the King James Version as the only reliable version." This plus the thing he said at church yesterday has me concerned that he has become radical KJVO.
Amy,
Is the King James Only a part of your official doctrinal statement at your church?
Here are my thoughts. First, if you are not convinced and you are officially restricted by the church then there is a problem. If this is an official stand of the church within the Constitution, you have 2 choices. Accept it or leave.
If it is not an official stance of the church (in the Constitution), then one option is to take the Constitution to the Pastor and say that no official document indicates this belief and that you feel they are unrightly imposing a belief not approved by the church upon you. You believe, this unofficial change should either go through the proper processes in the church to make this the official stance, or that you agree this is an issue of freedom within the church. Thus, while he has the right to believe whatever he wants on the topic, you have the right to freely use whatever translation you deem is appropriate until there is an official statement made.
However, my advise may be more basic. I would leave the church. Sit down with the pastor, tell him that you disagree with him on this issue and since it seems this is a vitally important issue and he believes it is worth enforcing upon the church, that you probably should part ways. I would encourage him and tell him you will pray for him, that you love him, and that you want the best for the church. If you leave, be honest on your reasoning, but never bash him or anyone. Leave, and find another church.
You may relay that you believe this "unofficial" change needs to go about the proper Constitutional measures to make it the official view. I would also relay that you felt ostracized over this change despite the church never officially embracing this view. Rather, they enforced a view based upon his whims and not the proper procedures. Yet, leaving ensures you will not fight him but move to another church.
I hope this helps.
Yes. It helps. Thank you!
The only doctrinal statement of the church is the Baptist Faith and Message. It's kind of an odd church, which is one reason I liked it to begin with, but now I see it's becoming a problem. There are other problems going on as well, besides the version issue (music is a constant argument). And the only ones that have a problem with the version issue are me and a friend of mine. (everyone else I know uses the KJV) I am the type person that checks out everything I'm taught against the bible. If it doesn't line up, then I reject it. But I will tell others why. One time I made my whole SS class mad at me. Maybe I'm the problem? LOL But most seem to care little about doctrine and just rely on whatever they were taught all their lives. Myself, having never been taught anything as a child have to rely on the bible and the Holy Spirit to teach me and guide me as to who else I should listen to.
But, yesterday when the pastor said that the "eth" in certain KJV words referred to a "continuing action", I got really upset (last straw) because I know that's not right and I know he knows better. He apparently was using that to cement his belief that the KJV is "better" because of these type words. Now I know that I was probably the only one who went home and actually checked it out. It amazes me how many don't do any actual study. :tear: I don't like being manipulated and I feel that's what's going on.
I do love my pastor, but I just cannot tolerate this anymore. I love the KJV and read from it everyday but I also love the NKJV and the NASB and I'm tired of being told that I'm reading the "wrong" bible. Yes, my SS teacher said that last week.
So between that issue and several other things, I will probably leave and look for another church. I already have one in mind.
Sorry to babble on an on. I guess I needed to vent. :flower:
franklinmonroe
Active Member
First, let me say that I sympathize with your situation. It is difficult and sad to leave a church because of the friendships that have been made there.
Second, I would like to share from recent experience that it does not matter what the 'official' church position (bylaws in writing) because the defacto standard of the pastor will hold sway. In my church the reason given was that historically (traditionally) our church had always (?) held and taught a certain position. Ultimately, you will probably have to change churches.
But, I think you should call out this pastor on his factual error. Ask him to back his statement up with some evidence or publically admit that it was a mistake. He should should know that some Bereans will fact check and challenge him if he is on shaky ground. You owe it to him, the sheep (congregation), and yourself. I might also recommend that you do no't confront him alone; it would be to easy to just dismiss you by yourself. I'd suggest taking a knowledgeable man (some one who also understands this error) with you. A deacon would be good. This could be a symptom of a serious underlying problems of the pastor (is he is willfully fabricating and spreading misinformation, possibly cover it up or unwilling to to confess his error?).
Last edited by a moderator:
Let me clarify my earlier statement. The present indicative does show action that is current; in that sense, it does show ongoing action. But -eth is not especially able to show current (or continuing) action.
He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him. (KJV)
He who goes out weeping, bearing the seed for sowing, shall come home with shouts of joy, bringing his sheaves with him. (ESV)
Both these translations show current (or continuing) action; goes/goeth are both third person present indicative; they are just inflected differently.
Amen, and let me say that any man worthy of the title of pastor should APPRECIATE someone pointing out their errors. It's not fun to be "called out", I know, but the shepherd and the flock will be better for it, even if no apparent changes are made. Too many Christians "cut and run" when they should at least make an effort to stand for the truth. It IS your battle- to him (her) that knows to do good, and does not do it, it is sin."
Praying for you and this situation.