Not escaping me, but why would it seems all other modern versions NOT translate it that way? Are all of them wrong here?
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Any one else think the Niv 2011 went to far in gender Inclusive language in revision?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Not escaping me, but why would it seems all other modern versions NOT translate it that way? Are all of them wrong here?
bull feathers.Regardless of translation this is difficult passage and requires interpretation. This seems to be escaping you.
Read it in context and it is clear as glass. Women are not to have authority over men in the church. Period.
1Ti 2:8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;
1Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,
1Ti 2:10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Ti 2:15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
The NIV translation is well within language parameters
yes, also within those of the current cultural, and in feminist circles within the church!
bull feathers.
Read it in context and it is clear as glass. Women are not to have authority over men in the church. Period.
I'm talking about the Greek language for the paragraph from which that particular verse is found.
Context, clear as glass as you say, tells us that women will be saved in childbearing, meaning what exactly? Why no concern for the contradiction your interpretation has with Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 11 where women aren't told to be quiet, but pray and prophesy with their heads covered?
yes, also within those of the current cultural, and in feminist circles within the church!
Meaning what exactly?
You keep returning to this agenda issue. If anyone is guilty of an agenda it was the men of the historical church that shut women out of church leadership for centuries in deference to the culture of the day instead of joining Jesus and freeing women from the restrictions culture had placed on them.
Jesus told the apostles that what ever they set up on earth was how it would be. Since HIS SPIRIT was guiding them in setting up the church and its rules how do you figure they ignored him?Meaning what exactly?
You keep returning to this agenda issue. If anyone is guilty of an agenda it was the men of the historical church that shut women out of church leadership for centuries in deference to the culture of the day instead of joining Jesus and freeing women from the restrictions culture had placed on them.
As to your other question, the reference to me was from Eve. Even though she transgressed she was saved through teaching her children better. Though some commentaries say that they believe it was a reference by Paul to the pagan belief that faith in Artemis would help in bearing children. Her name is very close to the word for child bearing.
What I do know is very clear is that women has NO authority over men in the church. Just because the mores now have changed does not mean the way GOD set up the church is supposed to.
Meaning what exactly?
You keep returning to this agenda issue. If anyone is guilty of an agenda it was the men of the historical church that shut women out of church leadership for centuries in deference to the culture of the day instead of joining Jesus and freeing women from the restrictions culture had placed on them.
Do you hold the bible to be inspred and infallible revealtion from the lord to us?
I know you do, and as such, God clearly has told us that the proper spiritual leadership in a church would be males as pastors/Elders, regardless of how th culture/society views the issue!
that is where the critics charge though that they tarnslated their references to the person, tried to get a female Apostle, and also in tomothy a female pastor is OK!
LOL! "Tomothy"? That books not in any of my Bibles. Also, we're talking about translating, not "tarnslating."
LOL!
LOL! "Tomothy"? That books not in any of my Bibles. Also, we're talking about translating, not "tarnslating."
LOL!
that would be the Niv/nas 2015 versions soon to come!
Keeping women out of leadership is actually capitulating to culture, nit the other way around. Culture of the day treated women as property, Jesus said women are free. Paul did too, but temporarily said learn (which was so radical for the day) quietly for now, not forever.
I see no caveat in any of the scriptures on a time limit for women being out of leadership over men in the church.
Paul did not say, for now neither did Peter. They said be quiet. They said learn in quietness. They said do not take authority over a man in church. Not once did they, either of them add in, for now we will change it later.
Paul did not say, for now neither did Peter. They said be quiet. They said learn in quietness. They said do not take authority over a man in church. Not once did they, either of them add in, for now we will change it later.
Then Paul is contradicting himself. In Timothy he says be quiet but in Romans commends Phoebe and Junia, an apostle and a deacon.
Please quote verses that gives them these "titles". A quick search didn't turn up that. Have to leave shortly and don't have time to check multiple Bible versions.
Thanks!
Hmmmm
In the ESV:
In the KJV:
Even the more liberal paraphrased Bibles do not call these women apostles. The CEV, which to me is the worst translation I have ever used does not.
I have had charismatic preachers try to tell me their wives were qualified to lead the churches and tell me to prove it. I have been an online teacher of women for over 10 years and to date I have NEVER seen the command to be silent and not have authority over men rescinded. It just is not there. Women did not lose their authority they were never given it. Jesus picked out 13 MEN to build his church.
Do women have jobs in the church? Yes. As teachers to other women and as nurturers to the saints. Not as Elders, deacons or preachers and teachers of mixed classes.
Our influence to men is to be in how we behave, as is stated also more than once. In the lists for Deacons and Elders it is specifically states the HUSBAND of one wife. NOT the WIFE of one husband.
In the ESV:
No mention of an apostle, female or otherwise. Though it mentions 2 who are highly thought of BY THE apostles.Rom 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae,
Rom 16:2 that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well.
Rom 16:3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,
Rom 16:4 who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well.
Rom 16:5 Greet also the church in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in Asia.
Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.
Rom 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
Rom 16:8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord.
Rom 16:9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.
Rom 16:10 Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus.
Rom 16:11 Greet my kinsman Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus.
Rom 16:12 Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord.
Rom 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well.
Rom 16:14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers who are with them.
Rom 16:15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
In the KJV:
Again no mention of an apostle male or female. Other than being highly thought of by them again.Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Rom 16:8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
Rom 16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
Rom 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
Rom 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
Rom 16:12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
Rom 16:14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
Even the more liberal paraphrased Bibles do not call these women apostles. The CEV, which to me is the worst translation I have ever used does not.
I have had charismatic preachers try to tell me their wives were qualified to lead the churches and tell me to prove it. I have been an online teacher of women for over 10 years and to date I have NEVER seen the command to be silent and not have authority over men rescinded. It just is not there. Women did not lose their authority they were never given it. Jesus picked out 13 MEN to build his church.
Do women have jobs in the church? Yes. As teachers to other women and as nurturers to the saints. Not as Elders, deacons or preachers and teachers of mixed classes.
Our influence to men is to be in how we behave, as is stated also more than once. In the lists for Deacons and Elders it is specifically states the HUSBAND of one wife. NOT the WIFE of one husband.
Romans 16:1-7 (NIV)
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. [2] I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including*me. [3] Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. [4] They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. [5] Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia. [6] Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. [7] Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
Obviously there is room for differences of opinion.
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. [2] I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including*me. [3] Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. [4] They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. [5] Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia. [6] Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. [7] Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
Obviously there is room for differences of opinion.
A definition of the word used in the Greek does not give one power over.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 1249 Original WordWord Origindiakonoßprobably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, cf (1377))Transliterated WordTDNT EntryDiakonos2:88,152Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechdee-ak'-on-os Noun Definition
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 1249 Original WordWord Origindiakonoßprobably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, cf (1377))Transliterated WordTDNT EntryDiakonos2:88,152Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechdee-ak'-on-os Noun Definition
- one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
- the servant of a king
- a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
- a waiter, one who serves food and drink
Hmm--I certainly find any version of the NIV easier to read than my ESV.
I prefer translations that neither try to artificially preserve the "English male as generic" idea nor go whole hog being gender inclusive.
I do prefer translations that strive for gender accuracy.
Tell me what it said in the original language, and park your feminism and your masculinism at the door!
And totally agree women are not to USURP authority over the men. The word the old KJV used was very accurate. But usurping is very different than a church appointing a woman to a position.
But then again, I don't see the Bible teaching deacons and preachers are authorities over the members, but servants of them. And women are nowhere told they cannot be slaves and servants.
I prefer translations that neither try to artificially preserve the "English male as generic" idea nor go whole hog being gender inclusive.
I do prefer translations that strive for gender accuracy.
Tell me what it said in the original language, and park your feminism and your masculinism at the door!
And totally agree women are not to USURP authority over the men. The word the old KJV used was very accurate. But usurping is very different than a church appointing a woman to a position.
But then again, I don't see the Bible teaching deacons and preachers are authorities over the members, but servants of them. And women are nowhere told they cannot be slaves and servants.
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This easier to read or "readability" is a bunch of bunk.