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ANy others here hold To Tulip, yet Still remained a Dispensationalist?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
I am a dispensationalist and any who are will eventually drop Calvinism like a hot potatoe if they hold true to it, because to be a dispensationalist one must be God dependent when studying scripture. This is why Calvinist are quick to say dispensationalist take the word literaly. They do not spiritualize everything in scripture.
MB
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Don't know what you mean by "spiritualize" but dispensationalists are not consistent literalists. The Scripture that shows this most clearly is John 5:28, 29:
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now this passage clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead consistent with the scene of the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20. Yet dispensationalists either ignore this passage or try tto make the nonsensical argument that because it says good and evil the hour does not mean "the hour" and all does not mean "all".
I hate to use this analogy on a Christian forum but it is like Clinton saying: "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' 'Is'?
By the way if one is God dependent they will recognize that Salvation is all by the Sovereign Grace of God. If you want to give that truth the name Calvinism so be it. I sometimes call dispensationalists Darbyites or Scofieldians.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
John MacArthur still holds to the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace!!!
Greektim
Well-Known Member
It was actual my dispensationalism (in part; and I'm no longer dispo) that brought me to Calvinism. The dispo concept of NC fulfillment is very calvinistic whether you admit so or not. There is a future generation of Jews guaranteed salvation b/c God has preordained these end-time events, one of them being the fulfillment of the NC. If that is the case, then it will be God, not the Jews, who determine the believing remnant of Israel at that time. Plus... if you read the NC in an eschatological way (dispo understanding of eschatology), it sounds very calvinistic b/c it is all in the first person from God's perspective.
Plus, many academic dispos are calvis. They may not be 5 pointers, but then again, many are. Most at DTS lean that way.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Can't speak for any other dispie but yours truly is a consistent literalist John 5:28-29 not withstanding. As far as being a five pointer, I tend towards it but I not would not say I'm in the can. I appreciate the words of Henry Morris, he claimed to be mildly calvinistic. I will further add that dispies are truly Sola Scriptura while our reformed brethern will defer to the various confessions, creeds and teachings of the 16th century protestant reformers.
So you are one who would agree with me, as against the reformed bethren, that one can be cal in just their aspect to Sotierology, and hold to non reformed eschatological views?
Sounds like you and me would see things in this area very much alike!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then all of that stuff about the pre-trib rapture and the earthly millennial reign is just fictitious. Glad to hear that since a literal understand ing of John 5:28, 29 allows only the general resurrection and judgment. Of course if you want to "spiritualize" that passage I suppose you could get all the different resurrections you need to fit dispensational mythology. Perhaps we need to read that passage again.
John 5:28, 29, KJV
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
One hour, one voice, and ALL; sounds like a general resurrection and judgment to me, just like at the Great White Throne.
No Thomas that is not correct. One needs an imaginative mind to get dispensational error from Scripture. I believe it took a Darby, a Scofield, and perhaps a Margaret MacDonald to develop dispensationalism.
Frankly I am not as concerned about dispensational eschatology as their concept of a "parenthesis" Church, though unfortunately their obsession with the Jews does seem to affect our foreign policy.
convicted1
Guest
And to add to this most excellent post:
Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I sure can't find a "literal" 1,000 years plus the 7 year trib period in Jesus' words here. Here is the prime example of a general resurrection, where the Sheep and goats get seperated for eternity.
isaiah foresaw a coming messianic Age upon earth, while paul/John foretold of a final state age
one is the Millenium, other Final State
Great White Throne right between!
convicted1
Guest
These are words quoted from Jesus' own mouth. Find a 1,007 years between the two judgements I posted from Matthew 25.....
What did Apostle John mean by seeing a Millenium upon the earth?
Greektim
Well-Known Member
I would absolutely agree w/ you. I actually find it ironic that more dispos aren't calvinistic. And it has nothing to do w/ a literal hermenuetic. That is not what is at stake in the calvinism debate. As someone pointed out above, MacArthur is a great example of a 5 point dispo. His ordo eschaton is pretrib to the core.
Johnie Mac's talk "Why every self-respecting Calvinist should be a premillennialist" makes good sense in that election of Israel is similar to our election and amillennialism is closer to eschatological arminiainism. This lecture helped get me to calvinism though the opposite was its intent. Now, i'm amill. Go figure.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
With all due respect I'm very correct, you sir are not. And for you to fret about dispies having any kind of influence on US foreign policy is, to be quite blunt absurd on at least 10 levels, maybe more.
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Old regular;
First of all let’s back up to the beginning of what is being spoken of here.
John wrote what Christ said here;
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
This passage does not speak of a general resurrection of the dead as you have claimed. Rather it speaks of two seprate resurrections one for the dead in Christ and the other for the lost. You see you have added the idea of a general resurrection either on your own or it’s someone else’s idea. It very clearly speakes of two. One is the resurrection to life and the other to the resurrection to damnation. That spells two not one. Not to mention that what you really object to is the dead all hearing Christ speak while in their graves. This disproves the Calvinist theory that the dead can’t hear the word’s of life. These are really physically dead and in there graves. This was happening as Jesus spoke as in verse 25 also says “and now is” after saying the hour is coming. This is what comes from not reading and considering all that Christ said.
It’s mentioned in the Bible therefore the dispensation of events is spoken of but not Calvinism. Imagine that!
MB
The really sad thing is that you have misinterpreted what dispensationalist is saying. Therefore I’ll try to be as plain as possible in my explanation.
First of all let’s back up to the beginning of what is being spoken of here.
John wrote what Christ said here;
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
This passage does not speak of a general resurrection of the dead as you have claimed. Rather it speaks of two seprate resurrections one for the dead in Christ and the other for the lost. You see you have added the idea of a general resurrection either on your own or it’s someone else’s idea. It very clearly speakes of two. One is the resurrection to life and the other to the resurrection to damnation. That spells two not one. Not to mention that what you really object to is the dead all hearing Christ speak while in their graves. This disproves the Calvinist theory that the dead can’t hear the word’s of life. These are really physically dead and in there graves. This was happening as Jesus spoke as in verse 25 also says “and now is” after saying the hour is coming. This is what comes from not reading and considering all that Christ said.
Again you don’t know what you are talking about here.” Dispensationalism existed long before Scofield or Darby. Dispensation is That which is dispensed or bestowed; a system of principles and rites enjoined; as the Mosaic dispensation; the gospel dispensation; including, the former the Levitical law and rites; the latter the scheme of redemption by Christ.”
It’s mentioned in the Bible therefore the dispensation of events is spoken of but not Calvinism. Imagine that!
MB
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Can you give a reference from Scripture?
MB, John 5:25 is not speaking of physically dead people in their graves. It is speaking of spiritually dead persons who are very much physically alive. You have to go to verse 28, here Jesus IS speaking of persons who are physically dead, though some are spiritually alive, and some are spiritually dead.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Notice Jesus does not mention the grave in verse 25. He does not mention coming forth. He is speaking of living persons who are spiritually dead. They can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live. This is speaking of being regenerated, being born again.
Verse 28 speaks of the grave. Jesus speaks of coming forth. These are persons who are physically dead. Those who died in Christ will rise to life, those who have not believed will rise to damnation. But the spritually dead will rise 1000 years later.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The scripture is clear, this is the first resurrection, so obviously there is another to come.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Notice Jesus does not mention the grave in verse 25. He does not mention coming forth. He is speaking of living persons who are spiritually dead. They can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live. This is speaking of being regenerated, being born again.
Verse 28 speaks of the grave. Jesus speaks of coming forth. These are persons who are physically dead. Those who died in Christ will rise to life, those who have not believed will rise to damnation. But the spritually dead will rise 1000 years later.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The scripture is clear, this is the first resurrection, so obviously there is another to come.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I wait with bated breath!:laugh:
Hold on there a minute MB, hold on there a minute. Just where did I say that John 5:25, the passage you post, had anything to do with the general resurrection?
No! You are imposing dispensational error on a very clear passage of Scripture.
It reads:
John 5:28, 29 KJV
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now to point out a few things. Jesus Christ, My Lord and My Savior, states ever so clearly:
1. the hour Not two different time periods but one which He clearly calls the hour.
2. in the which In the WHAT? In the hour Now I could look up the Greek for hour and spout off about that but to no avail. You have imposed your dispensational mythology on this passage of Scripture and that trumps everything. But to continue:
3. in the which all Who? ALL All you say? NO, ALL said Jesus Christ. You going to dispute My Lord and My Savior? ALL who?
4. all that are in the graves What about ALL that are in the graves you ask?
5. shall hear his voice ALL shall hear his voice! All means all. Whose voice you ask? My Lord and My Savior I reply. How many voices you ask? ONE VOICE Scripture replies! And then what, you ask?
6. ALL shall come forth ALL shall come forth. When shall ALL come forth. When My Lord and My Savior speaks; not when Darby speaks, or Scofield, or MacDonald, or Ryrie, or Walvoord, not even MacArthur!
No MB you are totally, absolutely deluded. The passage in question speaks of only one resurrection when ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth! Any rational reading of the text indicates a general resurrection and general judgment.
Imagine what? The word dispensation does not occur in the Old Testament, imagine that! Dispensationalism is the invention of John Darby and that is the truth. Sadly Scofield and his Bible popularized it is this country.
But again I say that the worst thing about dispensationalism is that it teaches Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, the Jews rejected Him and He established the Church instead, a fallback position. Never mind the fact that a mob of Jews wanted to make Him king!!Imagine that!
The Bible is not a hodge-podge record of God's dealing with mankind. The Bible is a unified story of the outworking of the Grace of God in the Salvation of His people. The initial promise of redemption is recorded in Genesis 3:15 long before God called out Abraham.
Brother JF....may I suggest another book ...its on Amazon for 30 dollars but very good & I need some others to read & discuss it with me.....know both GLFRED & Archangel have read it & perhaps we can study it together (if not in here then we can use another mode of communications (Chat room, Google something)
Name: HISTORIC THEOLOGY" by Greg Allison
Your move..... I know I can assemble the troops.
Name: HISTORIC THEOLOGY" by Greg Allison
Your move..... I know I can assemble the troops.