Any such thing as Satan's music?

I don't know that this is even a definable proposition. To the best of my knowledge, music in and of itself cannot be either evil or good. What we do with that music is the key factor to determining whether it is "evil" or not. If music is used in the praise of God to glorify Him, it cannot be evil. He did not say that he would only accept certain "forms" of praise (leaving aside the instrumental questions for the moment - they are another topic altogether).

When the New Testament speaks of praising God, they used the words "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs". Please note that it does NOT say how the "spiritual songs" are to be styled! And I still maintain that the followers of Jesus praised him with song in the style of that day - what else would they use? If it was so in Jesus' day, what is the problem with praising Him in our own style today?

There is a quote by the character Altisidora in "Don Quixote" that I think sums it up perfectly: "All music jars when the soul's out of tune". And that says it all! We should look to ourselves, not the music, when we perceive a problem.

Ruth

 

Rufus, it's all about the lyrics really. I was going to say the personality of the artist as well, but then I thought about that more and I had to take it back. I mean the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, more currently groups like System of a down, have made some great clean music despite the personal failings of their members.

So inconclusion: its all about the lyrics

 

Rufus: I have done some minor study on the psychological effects of music, and the effects on the brain, but as you know there have not been any broad scale scientifically based studies actually done in this field to date. The most commonly known study refers to what is called "The Mozart Effect" and it was conducted in a most unscientific manner on a very small group (if I remember correctly, less than 20 participants with no double blind). The results of this study were not duplicated in any other research, so it must be considered suspect. Even so, this study was not about the emotional effect of music - but the supposed effect on learning abilities.

There have been attempts in the past few years to correlate particular types of music with specific brain effects - and all that I am aware of have failed miserably. Invariably it is found that test subjects respond most favorably when they are exposed to musical types that they like - for instance, I remember a collegiate's graduate study on the effect of music on student performance. They expected to find that when the subjects were exposed to classical music, they would perform better; instead, they found that those who did not like or were not familiar with classical music did worse than having no music or modern music either one!

This, of course, does not prove that the music itself is "good" or "bad" - it simply shows that you will be vastly more successful reaching your target audience if you use the type of music they prefer. And in my own, very nonscientific independent study of people in the church (including myself!) it is very easy to tell when you are getting through to the listeners - for instance, when I am listening to music in our church, I have a very difficult time concentrating on the message in the song if it is done in a twangy, country and western style! I find the music itself to be a BIG distraction - simply because of my personal preferences. And no big surprise - our teens respond better to our local semi-famous CCM band than they do to our basic "singing out of the hymnal" style which is typical at church. When they go to a concert with a CCM band, they come back enthused, alive, and ready to spread the Word! So in my observations, if Satan is using modern music to lead our kids astray - he is really messing up big time. Doesn't work that way at all around here.

As for Ezekiel 28:13, this is the first time I have heard someone interpret that as relating to Lucifer. The commentaries I have read all refer to this chapter as being about the Tyrian kingdom and line of succession, since they had been an established kingdom for an extended period of time, with the rulers coming from a single familial line.

Ruth

 

Ok, if we take that verse saying to obstain from even the appearances of the world to say that christian rock is wrong because of the dress, the sound ect....this literally means....

1. You can no longer go out to eat (the world does that)

2. You can no longer drive your car (the world does that)

3. Watching any tv, be it pure or not (the world does that)

4. You can't go shopping (world does that too)


hmmm must I go on with this pathetic list or has the point been driven home. that verse has been taken out of context so many times to make a point that is pointness.

Karen

 

Mike McK, may i then ask the very basic, presuppositional question (on which this whole subject is underpinned) , what is YOUR belief on the biblical doctrine of Separation (from the world), and how do you practice it as a Christian, in your everyday life?

and if you could be so kind to furnish with verses

 

the verse is not the appearance of the world, but the appearance of EVIL.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

If we are not to do anything and everything the world does, we all might as well DIE since the world is alive.


There IS evil in the world. many seem to take lightly the true evilness of evil. that's what the Enemy, Satan wants us to believe, that his poison really isn't that deadly.

If you believe in God, you must also believe in His antihesis, the Devil...
"1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

 

Su Wei, the time for making claims is over, now is the time to start backing them up empirically.

If there is such a thing as evil music, what are the elements that make it evil (how can I define it), and what does Scripture have to say about it?

 

So then, anyone who recives recognition for their music is not of God, regardless of the music itself? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]well, i feel the need to further explain this point i was making.

Have you ever tried to tell sinners that they have sin and need to repent and turn to the Saviour? The natural man will revile you.
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

I picked Smith and Grant because they were Christian singers trying to straddle two sides. Given that the world *will* hate the Christian's message, what does it tell you if the world embraces Smith and Grant? there is no message there that has any real eternal purpose.

"James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Same goes for the movies with a Christian "theme". If those movies truely turn people to search the Bible to find out who God truly is and how to get right with Him, then great! God can use sin to point sinners to Him. But in all likelihood, nothing good can come out of the world.

Sure, you can receive recognition for whatever music you want but whether or not it wins the approval of God is another matter altogether.

 

hello Travelsong, and thank you for your post!

Firstly, we have to agree there is such a person as Satan.
And that this person Satan is all out to destroy humankind.
Save the Grace of GOd, we would all be dead in sins and still children of Satan.

Secondly, Satan has many devices to keep the world in bondage to sin.

these we have to believe in faith because we can't see it with our eyes.

Do we agree thus far?

So now, the bible does not explicitly say that heavy metal, RnB, jazz is of the Devil. (Nor does it say anything about LSD, or pornography, i hope you see my point) God has not left us helpless in this world but has given us principles by which to judge whether something is of GOd or of the Devil.
Music, which is such an important part of life, and especially worship, God certainly has a standard, a right and wrong. (ref. also to Cain and Able. Who do we think we are to force God to accept whatever we want to give Him? This was Cain's error.)


i think i have given several verses previously to prove that God does have an opinion on music and from other verses, we know for a certain what Jesus' relationship with the World is. (The World is an enemy of God.)

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Christians are to walk by another course after they are saved!

Music (no lyrics) is used in the world for many purposes. I will go further to say that Music is a key tool in the manefestation of this "spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

demonic worship and trance: repetitive drum beat.
disco, pub: same repetitive beat.
SAME ALL OVER THE WORLD!!! Tell me there is no anti-God spirit in these!

I pointed out in another topic how incongruent it would be if one were to play the "Stars and Stripes Forever" in a pub.
In a pub, you want a relaxed amosphere, and do whatever one does in a pub setting. no one can get "in the mood" with marching music. and pub owners choose their music very carefully. Why doesn't the Church???!?
(Luke 16:8 ...... for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.)

"Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Now the question is, do we want this kind of music, which the world expressly uses to get people "in the mood", in the worship of our Holy God? What do you think God thinks of this?
you would be sadly mistaken if you think God would accept an un-holy thing in the worship of Him.

Sure, people think they're feeling good and that God has something to do with it but this is not the case. it's all still fleshly.


And i still say, with all due respect, one will not understand Separation until one practices it.

I do understand that we are bound to disagree because of the different church backgrounds from which we come from, but i would consider myself as one who has come over from "your" side, and therefore know the blindness i used to be in.
Please consider the points i've raised before dismissing it as "you have not answered the question!!!"

 

the world's music styles are used to manifest the ideas of the movement.

Jazz the music of the beat generation: fluid melody line, "all over the place", "no rules".

New Age: No melody, No form, flowing on and on.

techno: pounding rhythmn, digitised voices, no human touch, no warmth.
This is the computer age.

I guess these are some other "empircal" evidences.

 

Simply put, I believe that we're in the world but not of the world.

Be-bop?

There's a lot of music from that era that's really good.

I take it you don't listen to a whole lot of New Age music.

Most of it does have a distinct melody and form.

No, so far it's just opinion.

Again, is it wrong to make music for the sake of art or entertainment?

It tells me that your average non-Christian accepts them for their mainstream crossover stuff, not their Christian albums.

Pagans aren't buying "Eye2I" or "The Michael W. Smith Project" or any of his explicitly Christian albums, they're buying the crossover stuff.

Likewise, they're not buying "Never Alone" or "My Father's Eyes", they're buying Amy Grant's crossover stuff.

It's entertainment. Lighten up.

I disagree. All truth is God's truth.

I've never even heard of such a thing. Could you elaborate?

Obviously, we have different ideas of "pub rock". Could you give some examples of who you consider "pub"?

Also, how can you condemn be-bop and new age for not having a clearly defined rythm and then condemn "pub" for having a repetitive beat?

There is no anti-God spirit in these.

Yes, and that example was flawed there, too.

[qb]

In every pub?

I'll have to remember that next time I'm at the Anglesea in Wildwood, N.J. listening to Spirit of '16 play loud and fast or the next time I'm at Finnegan's Wake listening to Blackthorn or Black '47.

We have a local pub that has ceilli music three times a week and I doubt you'd call that "relaxed".

How about the fact that nobody's listened to Sousa marches for 100 years?

 

Mike McK,
Firstly, i am glad that at least one person is taking the time to read what i'm posting.

secondly, despite of how i may sound, i do respect you as someone for whom Christ died. Apologies if i sound like i'm trying to battleram my ideas through.

I see that you are very knowledgeable with the work of various artises and such. I am happy to admit i am no expert on this.

However, i wouldn't think my ignorance on this is of a concern to my Lord, Jesus Christ, so i'm happy to claim that i don't know everything that Amy Grant has ever produced. (On the other hand, i do not think i had given false information on anybody either. )

What is important to my Lord is that i know what He thinks of the issue at hand, and that I obey Him.

Therefore, I ask again, the more important question, (because honestly, I wasn't too satisfied with your first reply, ) what do you understand about the doctrine of Separation, and how do you practice "being in the world but not of the world"?
This is the basis from which we can come to any conclusion on whether there is such a thing as Satan's music. If not, it'll be simply your opinion versus mine.

How do you practice being "in the world but not of the world"? Or how has your life changed since knowing the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ? What do you do to show Him you love Him?


2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

Ugh..yeah your right, I got the verse wrong...but the meaning still doesn't change. We can't take that scripture and apply it to every little thing in our lives or we won't be doing a thing but sitting at home praying all day every day.

karen

 

That's fine. No one can be expected to know everything. In the future, though, it would probably be a better idea not to speak authoritatively about it, then.

What you've said about Grant and Smith has been a little misleadng.

I don't know how to answer that becaue I'm not sure how you're defining "seperation".

The best thing I can tell you is that I try my best to walk in the grace Christ has granted me.

No, it's not.

If you're going to judge the music, then judge the music on it's own merits.

I don't "do" anything. Jesus said "if you love Me, then you'll keep my commandments".

If that's good enough for Him, it's good enough for me.

 

I agree with this for the most part. I don't know what you mean by "children of satan" but I'll accept that as terminology meaning we would remain spiritually dead and without hope.

Satan is the father of lies. His methodology revolves around twisting and abusing the gifts that God has given us. Food and drink turn into gluttony, sex turns into fornication and various other perversions, working hard and earning a living may turn into excessive greed and the aquisition of wealth. I agree with your statement entirely, but I would also add that satan isn't a necessary component to keeping the world in bondage to sin. The world is under the curse of sin already and will do that on it's own except for the grace of God.

Yes

More importantly the Bible does not make any moral claims about music anywhere. Nowhere does Scripture teach that music can communicate good and evil. This is very important distinction between music and the two other things you mentioned (LSD and pornography) because as even you go on to say: "God has not left us helpless in this world but has given us principles by which to judge whether something is of GOd or of the Devil."

We can easily observe the actions and consequences associated with pornography and drugs and apply Scriptural truths to reveal the sin involving their use and practice. Pornography is nothing more than a gross distortion and degredation of the human body based on lust, and LSD impairs our ability to function as apostles of Christ. You can observe someone who is in bondage to these things and watch their lives and Christian walk deteriorate. Such is not the case with music (stressing again without lyrics-I will be the first to admit that there is far more damaging music with an evil antichrist message in popular culture than there is music that glorifies God or just explores the human experience in a tasteful way).

Where in the Bible is God's standard for music in worship spelled out? Please show where drums and guitars and keyboards or any instrument of any kind is declared sinful and unfit for worship.

You and Aaron would get along famously. You guys can call anything "evidence" and say it supports your moral claims without ever giving evidence. I'm sorry but what were those verses where God expresses and opinion on music (I'm assuming you mean preferred musical styles)?

Okay "the world" as it is used in the Bible defines humanity in it's natural state of prideful arrogance perpetually in opposition to God's will. I fail to see how music has anything to do with this. Can you tell the difference between a saved or unsaved man playing the flute or guitar or kazoo? I didn't think so.

How is music relavent to this verse?

I agree totally. What does this have to do with music? Please demonstrate how playing an electric guitar will prevent me walking by another course.

I can see how this is a true statement.

There is no anti-god spirit in these. How on earth does a repetitive drum beat become evil because someone uses it to go into a trance? Are you saying that a repetitive drum beat is evil in and of itself? Please demonstrate how. That's like saying that swinging a pocket watch by the chain is evil because people use that technique in hypnotism. It just doesn't make any sense. Gluttony doesn't make food evil, greed doesn't make money evil, pornography doesn't make the naked human body evil, and people self inducing trances by way of repetitive drum beats doesn't make percussion evil. I'm sorry but your logic fails at every level.

Again I have to ask you to please define what makes music evil and why.

 

yes, i am referring entirely to musical styles, not musical instruments.
I'm for drums in songs with a marching beat.


"Exodus 32:7-8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 32:17-19 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear. And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount."

Read the whole chapter yourself.
But i stuck this here to show that the worship of the Golden Calf produced a sound that sounded distinctly different from the worship of Jehovah God. Joshua thought it was the noise of war, but Moses realized that it was singing, but a singing that sounded more like people fighting.

There is a right way and a wrong way to worship God. Be not mistaken!

 

i think i'd be right to say, Travelsong, that you don't believe that music has any effect on a person physically?

then, i again, have to point out to you:

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

There is no anti-god spirit in these. How on earth does a repetitive drum beat become evil because someone uses it to go into a trance? Are you saying that a repetitive drum beat is evil in and of itself? Please demonstrate how.

If you were to say that music has no effect on you physically, you would be opening yourself up to all kinds of deception.

Yes, the world over, repetitve drumming and chanting is used in trance.
Here in Singapore, the Hindus have a festival called Thaipusam whereby devotees fast for a day and then the next day, subject themselves to carry heavy structures called Kavadis. The Kavadis are not held in the hands of the devotees but are held by hundreds of hooks and needles pierced in the skin of the body. The tongue (sticking out) is also pierced and held out with a skewer-like piece of metal.

Throughout the whole ritual of piercing and walking (they have to carry the Kavadi over a respectable distance), other devotees are drumming loudly, crying and chanting to help the one going through the pain to get into a trance-like state.

Same for Chinese religions when they're inviting spirits to possess the body of a priest. drums and cymbals are used.

This similar practice of drumming and chanting i have also seen on documentaries of tribal cultures in other parts of the world.

NO, i would not say drumming is like swinging a watch. PLease....
Music has the power to move people and hits the mind at the subconcious level. Anyone subjected to music with this kind of drumming over a period of time will succum to the effects of it. No, i'm not saying that everyone will go into a trance but i am saying that if the world uses it in the act of evil, Satanic, anti-God worship it has no place in the worship of Almighty God.

and imagine someone getting saved out of that kind of pagan background only to finf THE SAME kind of beat in the church!

no wonder we are to abstain from APPEARANCES of evil. not even evil itself, mind you! The APPEARANCE of it!

[ February 25, 2003, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Su Wei ]

 

it would be very, very dumb to stipulate that such and such and such a combination of instruments will produce evil music, and this note and this note and this note played in this sequence is bad.

I think Travelsong misread my posts.

Yes, i am talking entirely about musical styles.
I hope that clears up most of the miscommunication!

I promise this will be the last attempt i'll make to state my position.

Question: can you use words to describe songs?

Songs that are God's songs should be songs that carry the same qualities of God Himself: majestic, grand, great, beautiful, sweet, tender, gentle. Of course, there are sorrowful songs too that depict the sorrow and pain that Christ endured on the cross for our sins.

I can think of songs that are angry, hateful, full of strife, sensuous, lusty. These reflect the personality of Satan, and, to state the obvious, shuld not be used to praise God.