Any such thing as Satan's music?

[DanielFive]

Rufus,

Thanks for starting and ENDING this debate. No doubt there will still be some who won't accept that Rock music has NO PLACE IN CHRISTIAN CHURCHES or indeed Christian homes.

Great post.

God Bless

Enda

 

[rufus]

Mike McK, ad hominem statements don't really suit Christians, do they?

rufus

 

[Su Wei]

Thanks Rufus, I read the City Harvest article "fresh from the oven" when he was around.
yes! We had the immense privilege of having bro. Cloud preach in our service. He was a blessing and a challenge to us to stay faithful and be hardworking to study the Word.

And that's the situation we are facing here.

Churches drawing the crowds with a rock concert every sunday.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Aaron:
I enjoyed your posts immensely, Su Wei.

Thank you, and you're welcome. that's probably because we have common common sense...

i try to please my Lord.

 

[Su Wei]

hello Dr. Cloud, if you're reading.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by rufus:
Mike McK, ad hominem statements don't really suit Christians, do they?

rufus

In this case, yes.

 

[Travelsong]

*yawn*

I'm in the mood for "No Compromise". What a great Christian rock and roll record. I'm sure glad the judgement and moral condemnation of all you legalists is completely meaningless. Thank you for demonstrating as much.

 

[Eric B]

Leesee... if you travelled to all the continents of the world, and you observed people engaged in demonic, anti-god worship and you noticed that consistently, there was a use of drums (percussion instruments) and drumming (repetitive rhythmns) to induce trance, altered states of consciousness, common sense will tell you that there is something inherent in the quality of this kind of "music" that makes people go into altered states of consiousness, and used (harnessed) by the pagans for this desired effect.

This is the root of the whole fallacy here, leading to an assumption that only classical is good or approved by God. But the ancient Platonists tried to be as un-fleshly as possible, and they had a great influence on the "traditional" music that is assumed to be the default "Christian" style. Yet they were just as Satanic and pagan as anyone else. And the music David and other danced and worshipped God with in the Bible was rhythmic (though not sensual like today) This shows that while it may be wrong to say music is "neutral", it's not necessarily the rhythm that is sensual. It's not just a backbeat or some [undisclosed] amount of syncopation (a clever tactic to make only marching or waltz rhythms "accptable"). And loudness is onkly some rock, but cloud is against Jazz and everything else certain cultural influences as well.
Can't say much else now, but see
CCM Controversy

[ March 10, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Originally posted by rufus:
I am convinced that if you took away the rock music, churches like this
would lose their large crowds almost instantly. Rock music is a drug in
itself.

Do you feel this is a true statement?

 

[rufus]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rufus:
I am convinced that if you took away the rock music, churches like this
would lose their large crowds almost instantly. Rock music is a drug in
itself.

Do you feel this is a true statement? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm convinced David Cloud is convinced it is true! And he doesn't just "feel" it is true. He categorically affirms it to be true.

rufus

 

[Su Wei]

i can't find it now but they did a poll in City Harvest church to ask which aspect of church they enjoyed the most and overwhlemingly, it was the praise and worship session.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Eric B:
This is the root of the whole fallacy here, leading to an assumption that only classical is good or approved by God. But the ancient Platonists tried to be as un-fleshly as possible, and they had a great influence on the "traditional" music that is assumed to be the default "Christian" style. Yet they were just as Satanic and pagan as anyone else. And the music David and other danced and worshipped God with in the Bible was rhythmic (though not sensual like today) This shows that while it may be wrong to say music is "neutral", it's not necessarily the rhythm that is sensual. It's not just a backbeat or some [undisclosed] amount of syncopation (a clever tactic to make only marching or waltz rhythms "accptable"). And loudness is onkly some rock, but cloud is against Jazz and everything else certain cultural influences as well.
Can't say much else here, but see
CCM Controversy

wow... super long article.... will take my time to read it.

Traditional secular music is good music because the stress is on the naturally heavy beat, the first (and third) beat. and the rhythmn is nicely tucked away behind the melody and harmony. These are characteristics of good music. not because it's old.

i can only say, i'm not flogging myself here because the flesh is sinful. We enjoy hymns, acceptable musical variations on hymn melodies (like modulations and sequences). It is all very exciting and beautiful.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by rufus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rufus:
I am convinced that if you took away the rock music, churches like this
would lose their large crowds almost instantly. Rock music is a drug in
itself.

Do you feel this is a true statement? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm convinced David Cloud is convinced it is true! And he doesn't just "feel" it is true. He categorically affirms it to be true.

rufus

</font>[/QUOTE]A little bit of anecdote here, a quote from Timothy Leary there, make sure to associate debauchery and Beale street with contemporary worship and presto! A recipe for deception.

I'm sorry rufus but many of us aren't so weak minded that we can't see through that cloud of obfuscation.

 

[rufus]

Travelsong, God bless you. And God's wonderful love to you in Christ Jesus.

rufus

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
A little bit of anecdote here, a quote from Timothy Leary there, make sure to associate debauchery and Beale street with contemporary worship and presto! A recipe for deception.

I agree.

I think it's disingenuous on his part to only bring up the bad, as if the good didn't exsist, to make his case. Clearly he's speaking to his followers who are already convinced that contemporary music is evil and giving them what they paid to hear.

I noticed the quote from Timothy Leary. Maybe the fact that he's going to people who's minds are burnt out from years of acid for his information can tell us why his writings are so off the wall.

What's next? A few thoughts on soteriology from Wavy Gravy? A debate with Keith Richards on free will vs election?

Someone on another forum posted an essay he wrote on Veggie Tales. It was truly bizarre.

Between that and an essay of his that Ernie Brazee (I think) posted about the evils of long hair, I think it' safe to say that this guy's off his rocker.

I'm sorry rufus but many of us aren't so weak minded that we can't see through that cloud of obfuscation.

I know I've shared this before, but when I was a new Christian, I got rid of all my albums and I went out and bought all the books. Dan and Steve Peters, Fletcher A. Brothers (I should have know he was an idiot when the first words out of his mouth were that Bruce Springsteen's song, "I'm on Fire" was about pedophilia), Bob Larson, etc. I evenbought that dopey "Hell's Bells" video that was so popular then.

What you have to understand (and I'm saying this from experience) is that people don't follow these guys because they make brilliant arguments to back up their positions, they follow them because they need to.

They need to know that there's somebody that they can feel like they're better than and they need to know that they can do some sort of act of contrition to make God happy, such as throwing their records away. As long as they can show God that there aren't any Bay City Rollers' albums in their closets, they think that makes them holy.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
This is the root of the whole fallacy here, leading to an assumption that only classical is good or approved by God. But the ancient Platonists tried to be as un-fleshly as possible, and they had a great influence on the "traditional" music that is assumed to be the default "Christian" style. Yet they were just as Satanic and pagan as anyone else. And the music David and other danced and worshipped God with in the Bible was rhythmic (though not sensual like today) This shows that while it may be wrong to say music is "neutral", it's not necessarily the rhythm that is sensual. It's not just a backbeat or some [undisclosed] amount of syncopation (a clever tactic to make only marching or waltz rhythms "accptable"). And loudness is onkly some rock, but cloud is against Jazz and everything else certain cultural influences as well.
Can't say much else here, but see
CCM Controversy

Actually, Greek philosophy taught that music can make people good, moral people. That certainly is not true. But don't be deceived that sensual music cannot corrupt good manners. It can.

Touching an unclean thing could not make the unclean clean, but it could make the clean unclean.

Also, Greek philosophy was not the driving force behind Western Civilization. Christianity was. Western music was shaped by the Church, not Plato.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
They need to know that there's somebody that they can feel like they're better than and they need to know that they can do some sort of act of contrition to make God happy, such as throwing their records away. As long as they can show God that there aren't any Bay City Rollers' albums in their closets, they think that makes them holy.

I threw mine away because the Holy Spirit spoke to me about seperating from the world. I bacame a new creature in Christ. I no longer needed to try to find answers from the world. My desire is to live for Christ and the things of the world pulled me away from that purpose. All things that are similar to the rock music world bring back the memories of the old me. I don't like the memories of that person. Christ gives me the hope of being holy, the Bible tells me how it is possible. I will not confuse evil from good, so I won't put the two together to try to make what is wrong to be right. I threw away my association with the world that I would please the Lord. I seperated my life from the world to please Him. There is some truth in what you say, though the motives you think are not true. It's all in a process to become Holy, as He is Holy. I do know that there is a need for a desire to be Holy, which nobody can attain that desire for holiness without the desire to please Him.

I still ask, would you still go to church if the CCM were not there?

 

[stubbornkelly]

If you're asking the group, Olive, then I answer "yes, I would still go if CCM wasn't there." I don't particularly like CCM, and the meeting I currently go to doesn't use any organized music.

But it's still something of a straw man. If it isn't sinful music, and it is a person's musical preference (based on taste), then why would they have a reason to avoid a church with CCM?

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Also, Greek philosophy was not the driving force behind Western Civilization. Christianity was. Western music was shaped by the Church, not Plato.

Thanks Aaron, i was thinking about this today. Are we holding on to traditional music just because we don't want to rock the boat with something new.

I think "old" or "new" is all relative coz "jungle music" is as old as the people left the worship of the Creator to cling to the worship of the created. It's new to the Western Civilization but it's not new new, know what i mean?

So then, i would look back to the roots of the music and came to this thought that Christianity was the dominant "force" which shaped the Western culture and thus we see the flourishing of language, arts, science and so on.

The roots of "jungle music" is heathen and demonic. And should be rejected on this basis.

And another point is that there are musical cultures out there that can be accepted in the church because it adheres to good musical principles, even though it is "new" to the western church.

I'm thinking of Chinese music. Has anyone heard traditional chinese folk tunes? or a chinese orchestra?
Chinese music uses the pentatonic scale and therefore sounds quite different from western music. Haven't really studied the harmony aspect. It uses syncopation but not repetitively. (Just like hymns do have syncopation too, "When the Trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no more..." )
and has percussion but always in secondary role to the main melody line.

I have heard chinese missionaries use chinese folk tunes to sing scripture. (And thus they memorise tons and tons of scripture.) And it sounds very different from a western tune but it is good music. And would be "new" to a western church but i do not think i should (or would) be rejected by discerning separatist Christians.

As far as i know, Chinese orchestral music originated from the Imperial courts.
But i'm also pushing for this idea that the ancient Chinese also worshiped Yaweh (found in ancient writings) and therefore, it shaped the music to contain godly principles in it too.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
I threw mine away because the Holy Spirit spoke to me about seperating from the world. I bacame a new creature in Christ.

That's what I thought, too, but it turned out it was just my own neuroses and misunderstanding of Christianity.

I no longer needed to try to find answers from the world.

Me neither. What does listening to mainstream music have to do with "finding answers from the world"?

My desire is to live for Christ and the things of the world pulled me away from that purpose. All things that are similar to the rock music world bring back the memories of the old me. I don't like the memories of that person.

So then, it's purely subjetive.

Christ gives me the hope of being holy, the Bible tells me how it is possible.

How is it any less so for people who listen to mainstream music?

I will not confuse evil from good, so I won't put the two together to try to make what is wrong to be right.

Nor should you. Again, what does this have to do with listening to mainstream music?

I threw away my association with the world that I would please the Lord. I seperated my life from the world to please Him.

To obey is better than sacrifice.

There is some truth in what you say, though the motives you think are not true.

Yes, they are. I went through it and I watched people around me go through it. That's exactly what the motives are.

It's all in a process to become Holy, as He is Holy. I do know that there is a need for a desire to be Holy, which nobody can attain that desire for holiness without the desire to please Him.

Holyness is a process that takes place on the inside, not by sacrificial works.

I still ask, would you still go to church if the CCM were not there?

I have to assume you don't read my posts. I've said a dozen or more times that I prefer hymns over CCM in church and that I really can't stand modern worship "choruses".

As much as I love the music in our church, I don't go for the music. I go for the Bible study, preaching and fellowship.