Any such thing as Satan's music?

[Su Wei]

ditto, OliveB!

Mark 2:21-22 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


This is all good so i put it whole:

Ephesians 4:22-32 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Neither give place to the devil.

Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
That's what I thought, too, but it turned out it was just my own neuroses and misunderstanding of Christianity.

That was the Spirit speaking to you in the beginning.

Me neither. What does listening to mainstream music have to do with "finding answers from the world"?

Mainstream music supposedly gives answers to the problems in life. This is the expression in words. Music without words is entertainment. With words is to express a meaning.

To obey is better than sacrifice.


Holyness is a process that takes place on the inside, not by sacrificial works.

And Samuel was telling this to Saul when he gave improper sacrifices up to the Lord. I will assume you have misquoted this rather than liken this to the use of giving up worldly things. Holiness involves seperation, physical and spiritual.

I have to assume you don't read my posts. I've said a dozen or more times that I prefer hymns over CCM in church and that I really can't stand modern worship "choruses".

As much as I love the music in our church, I don't go for the music. I go for the Bible study, preaching and fellowship.

I reread all of your posts on this topic and have not seen your reference to any preferences toward hymns at church. You spent all of your posts defending the music of the world and CCM. I'm happy to see that you prefer hymns. WHy didn't you say this. Did you do this to deliberatly? I hope that you aren't that deceiving.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Su Wei:
So then, i would look back to the roots of the music and came to this thought that Christianity was the dominant "force" which shaped the Western culture and thus we see the flourishing of language, arts, science and so on

Excellent.

And another point is that there are musical cultures out there that can be accepted in the church because it adheres to good musical principles, even though it is "new" to the western church.

Absolutely.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
That was the Spirit speaking to you in the beginning.

No it wasn't. It took me a couple of years to realize that it wasn't the Holy Spirit.

Mainstream music supposedly gives answers to the problems in life.

Like what, for instance?

This is the expression in words. Music without words is entertainment. With words is to express a meaning.

And what "meaning" does "Three Little Fishies" express to you?

And Samuel was telling this to Saul when he gave improper sacrifices up to the Lord. I will assume you have misquoted this rather than liken this to the use of giving up worldly things. Holiness involves seperation, physical and spiritual.

From what? Like Kelly pointed out, it's a straw man to say that you have to seperate from something that you haven't demonstrated is wrong.

I reread all of your posts on this topic and have not seen your reference to any preferences toward hymns at church.

I don't know why not, I've said it many times.

You spent all of your posts defending the music of the world and CCM.

Defending something from an unfair attack is not the same as a personal preference.

I'm happy to see that you prefer hymns.

To clarify, I said that I prefer hymns over modern worship choruses in church.

Why didn't you say this.

But I did say it. I've said it many times. In case there is any doubt, I'm saying it now.

Did you do this to deliberatly?

/quote]

Did I do what?

 

[Eric B]

Traditional secular music is good music because the stress is on the naturally heavy beat, the first (and third) beat. and the rhythmn is nicely tucked away behind the melody and harmony. These are characteristics of good music. not because it's old.

But this is where the others are showing that you are lacking scriptural authority (even though they may make it sound like music is neutral). This claim is based on some scientific studies, but they involve variable (relative), data, and there has been no conclusive proof that everyone who listens to any form of rock or jazz has messed up heart rhythm. And it's a moral issue that is being made of this, so to bring up science shows a weak scriptural basis (and as much as science claims to disprove the Bible!)

Actually, Greek philosophy taught that music can make people good, moral people.

But isn't that what people are claiming here? (Like the NY Philharmonic example I forgot to mention). Classical and marching style was associated with the Third Reich as well (there have been people who couldn't liste to it for that reason).

Touching an unclean thing could not make the unclean clean, but it could make the clean unclean.

And one of the whole points of Christ was that He could make the unclean clean. He must have, because ALL of us, and everything man does is unclean, inclusing our "classical"/"traditional" culture!

Also, Greek philosophy was not the driving force behind Western Civilization. Christianity was. Western music was shaped by the Church, not Plato.

So then, i would look back to the roots of the music and came to this thought that Christianity was the dominant "force" which shaped the Western culture and thus we see the flourishing of language, arts, science and so on.

And the Church was greatly influenced by Plato and Greek Philosophy, as we see trying to creep in even as the apostles wrote. That was my main point. You all forget about the monstrosity known as Medieval Rome, and how the period when this "Western Christianity" reigned, was known as the Dark Ages! Sex and the body was considered evil in itself, so naturally, people were hung up and used music that kept them completely stiff. But in the Bible this was not so. The soul was seen as good but trapped in evil flesh. This reversed the Biblical order, condemning the physical creation God declared "good", instead of the soul, which was what had fallen, and uses matter wrong.

I think "old" or "new" is all relative coz "jungle music" is as old as the people left the worship of the Creator to cling to the worship of the created. It's new to the Western Civilization but it's not new new, know what i mean?

The roots of "jungle music" is heathen and demonic. And should be rejected on this basis.

And another point is that there are musical cultures out there that can be accepted in the church because it adheres to good musical principles, even though it is "new" to the western church.

I'm thinking of Chinese music. Has anyone heard traditional chinese folk tunes? or a chinese orchestra?
Chinese music uses the pentatonic scale and therefore sounds quite different from western music. Haven't really studied the harmony aspect. It uses syncopation but not repetitively.

This is what concerns me the most about this teaching. Keep reading the article for a treatment on this offensive and somewhat inaccurate "jungle music" rhetoric! (does a simple backbeat by itself really sound like the "jungle"?) Obviously it's the African influences that is being condemned, and when you look at the history of this issue, it becomes clear where this comes from. "New to Western Culture"? That's precisely the mistake people are making. Rhythmic music may have been new to them, but they still were just as heathen and demonic. Isn't Oriental music associated with demonic "New Age" (The Beatles and others looked to Eastern religion for musical elements more than African) All cultures are equally in sin, but some think the "barbarians" are more sinful than they are. But it's precisely our fallen nature that makes us think that way.

But i'm also pushing for this idea that the ancient Chinese also worshiped Yaweh (found in ancient writings) and therefore, it shaped the music to contain godly principles in it too.

All once worshpped Yahweh (including the Africans), but all gradually fell away after generations. He revealed Himself to the Abraham's descendants, but they too kept turning away, even as He stood over them. That was the point He was showing us. Now He has the Church, and we too fall away (as you all are charging). So there is no room in the scriptures for this "one culture is better than others" talk I keep seeing, here, and in the current "US vs. Arab terrorists" comparison.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Eric B:
And it's a moral issue that is being made of this, so to bring up science shows a weak scriptural basis (and as much as science claims to disprove the Bible!)

I refer you to the Golden Calf episode.

And one of the whole points of Christ was that He could make the unclean clean. He must have, because ALL of us, and , inclusing our "classical"/"traditional" culture!

this is unscriptural. Jesus will not use an unclean thing:

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

you may be right when you say that Jesus can use sinners like us for His glory. But first, He must have a "new creature".

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

everything man does is unclean
God can bless the work of our hands:

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

And the Church was greatly influenced by Plato and Greek Philosophy, as we see trying to creep in even as the apostles wrote. That was my main point.

I see where you are coming from...

This is what concerns me the most about this teaching. Keep reading the article for a treatment on this offensive and somewhat inaccurate "jungle music" rhetoric! (does a simple backbeat by itself really sound like the "jungle"?) Obviously it's the African influences that is being condemned, and when you look at the history of this issue, it becomes clear where this comes from.

but not me. Like i said it's not confined to "Africa".
i'm talking about peoples of the world who did this:

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

And common to this worship is the aforementioned drumming. And the drumming and the trance phenonmenon is a "cause and effect" relationship, without the drumming, the trance would not happen. Not "superstition".

"New to Western Culture"? That's precisely the mistake people are making. Rhythmic music may have been new to them, but they still were just as heathen and demonic.

so we agree.

Isn't Oriental music associated with demonic "New Age" (The Beatles and others looked to Eastern religion for musical elements more than African)

guess you don't know what chinese traditional music is. That's okay.

(Hint: China is pretty far away from India...

)

Chanting HareKrishna HareKrishna is far different from what i'm talking about.

All cultures are equally in sin, but some think the "barbarians" are more sinful than they are. But it's precisely our fallen nature that makes us think that way.

Yes, i read about this in To Kill a Mockingbird.

The Bible talks about fallen cultures (in the afore quoted verse Romans 1) You may be right when you add the holier than thou attitude some have towards fallen cultures, but if one were to remember that we are all sinners saved by grace, compassion will turn them aright, to point them to the true Creator of Heaven and Earth, teach them His statutes and laws, and the way of Life.

Thank you EricB, you've given me lots to think about.

 

[Eric B]

Your Welcome

this is unscriptural. Jesus will not use an unclean thing:

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

you may be right when you say that Jesus can use sinners like us for His glory. But first, He must have a "new creature".

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

everything man does is unclean
God can bless the work of our hands:

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

This is all we're saying. Everything we do is unclean, but God canbless it. Otherwise, we could do nothing acceptable to God. If we're going to declare something "too bad to be blessed", or "beyond redemption", we need better criterion than what people are giving.

And common to this worship is the aforementioned drumming. And the drumming and the trance phenonmenon is a "cause and effect" relationship, without the drumming, the trance would not happen. Not "superstition".

But this is one type of drumming, used by people for a bad purpose. Yet, most of the drumming in rock and jazz does not sound like that, even though it may have similarities. Just because the strong beat is on 2 and 4? This is a "hypnotic trance inducing" beat? And what about songs that don't use that? Yet this "jungle" label is tagged onto it, and it is assumed that if these people used it for that reason, that can be its only use/affect, and it is forever no good. This is what I'm questioning.

The Bible talks about fallen cultures (in the afore quoted verse Romans 1)

there are cultures that may manifest depravity more, but I think "more fallen" is the wrong way to put it. And thanks for acknowledging the need for compassion. But many writing on this subject seem to like to look down on these so-called "more fallen" peoples.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Eric B:
If we're going to declare something "too bad to be blessed", or "beyond redemption", we need better criterion than what people are giving.

Please explain?

But this is one type of drumming, used by people for a bad purpose. Yet, most of the drumming in rock and jazz does not sound like that, even though it may have similarities. Just because the strong beat is on 2 and 4? This is a "hypnotic trance inducing" beat? And what about songs that don't use that? Yet this "jungle" label is tagged onto it, and it is assumed that if these people used it for that reason, that can be its only use/affect, and it is forever no good. This is what I'm questioning.

i've been thinking about this. The early church, established by Jesus Christ and the Apostles did not have the "benefit" of research and scientific studies. What they had was the Word of God and it was wisdom just to obey it.

whilst research is very good to backup the Word of God, what if research doesn't support the Word of God? does it mean we then can excuse ourselves from obey God's commands? God forbid that we should place man's wisdom above God's!

We may disagree about whether or not it is a cause/effect or use/affect relationship that drumming has. Or the specifics about beat and emphasis.

whilst these are very helpful in defining what is acceptable and what is not, i suspect that we are chasing the wrong trail.

what we can establish is that the drumming is common to "fallen" cultures (no extra self righteousness added...) and that we are to avoid appearances of evil.

The Apostles would have nothing that would taint the purity of the church. the Corinthian epistles would be a very good example of a church in the middle of a very pagan society, how she was contaminated by the pagan philosophies and how Paul fought to keep them straight and pure. Pagan music was not mentioned specifically, (I stand corrected) but in principle it's all there.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

(Again, it's all good and i don't want to take away from the flow of ideas so it's a whole long chunk. Please digest slowly...

)
Ephesians 5:3-20 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

*It is interesting that this last verse is written in the backdrop to the call for separation.

Thanks.
Humbly, i submit my thoughts,
Suwei

 

[Aaron]

Excellent post!

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Su Wei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eric B:
And it's a moral issue that is being made of this, so to bring up science shows a weak scriptural basis (and as much as science claims to disprove the Bible!)

I refer you to the Golden Calf episode. </font>[/QUOTE]Why?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And one of the whole points of Christ was that He could make the unclean clean. He must have, because ALL of us, and , inclusing our "classical"/"traditional" culture!

this is unscriptural. Jesus will not use an unclean thing:

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

you may be right when you say that Jesus can use sinners like us for His glory. But first, He must have a "new creature".
</font>[/QUOTE]Bah. God can use ANYTHING. Show me one place in the Bible that limits God's abilities.

Referring to an old post you made after I declared that Jesus drank:

I hate to you that you've just called Jesus a sinner because alchol is an abomination to God. But wine is another issue so i will not dwell there.

Do you honestly believe that Jesus never drank? Did the Bible lie? Luke 7:33-34.
Besides, if God really considered wine an abomination, why did Paul tell Timothy to take some for a stomach ache? From your veiwpoint, he would have explicitly instructed Timothy to sin.
Don't take this the wrong way, but you REALLY have to rethink your doctrinal beliefs, whoever taught you put some very wrong ideas into your head.

 

[Eric B]

Originally posted by Eric B:
If we're going to declare something "too bad to be blessed", or "beyond redemption", we need better criterion than what people are giving.
--------------------------------------------------
Please explain?

what we can establish is that the drumming is common to "fallen" cultures (no extra self righteousness added...) and that we are to avoid appearances of evil.

Better scriptural criterion for this notion of "fallen" cultures, whose musical elements are too evil to be used. It is highly unscriptural and questionable to suggest that che warmer climate cultures that used rhythmic drumming were more "fallen" than the northern cultures that used marching style rhythms, for instance.

The Apostles would have nothing that would taint the purity of the church. the Corinthian epistles would be a very good example of a church in the middle of a very pagan society, how she was contaminated by the pagan philosophies and how Paul fought to keep them straight and pure. Pagan music was not mentioned specifically, (I stand corrected) but in principle it's all there.
1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Ephesians 5:3-20...

But once again, how do we determine which has "too bad" an "association" ("appearance of evil") for us to partake of. As I had mentioned before, there are people who associate the marching and classical styles with the Third Reich. That right there calls into question who the [more]"fallen cultures" really were, or that only those styles are associated with civility and Christian living, while only the others are associated with sin.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Su Wei:I hate to you that you've just called Jesus a sinner because alchol is an abomination to God. But wine is another issue so i will not dwell there.

More comic relief from Su Wei.

Put words in someone's mouth and then make a statement like "alcohol is an abomination to God" as thought you're speaking ex cathedra and then say "But wine is another issue so I will not dwell there" so no one can ask you to back up your twisted logic.

Brilliant!

The truth is, scripture doesn't condemn alcohol, only it's misuse and he never said that Jesus was a sinner.

 

[Su Wei]

With all respect to Rufus who started this thread, Alchol is a different issue. So i have started another thread on the General Baptist Discussions for us to proceed with that topic and also for others to shed light.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Su Wei:
With all respect to Rufus who started this thread, Alchol is a different issue. So i have started another thread on the General Baptist Discussions for us to proceed with that topic and also for others to shed light.

Then why did you bring it up here?

It's disingenuous on your part to bring it up, make a declaration that scripture does not and then try to close the door behind you by saying "but that's another issue".

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Eric B:
It is highly unscriptural and questionable to suggest that che warmer climate cultures that used rhythmic drumming were more "fallen" than the northern cultures that used marching style rhythms, for instance.

Agreed!

But once again, how do we determine which has "too bad" an "association" ("appearance of evil") for us to partake of. As I had mentioned before, there are people who associate the marching and classical styles with the Third Reich. That right there calls into question who the [more]"fallen cultures" really were, or that only those styles are associated with civility and Christian living, while only the others are associated with sin.

i haven't read too much into Hitler and the third Reich. Did Hitler use the marching music and classical music for? Surely not incite violence?

You see, you can't bring out that kind of spirit from good music. Bad people can listen to good music. THat doesn't make it bad. The origin of the musical style is still intact, no matter who uses it. And linked to the previous ideas, I hope you see my point, Eric.

THanks

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Su Wei:
You see, you can't bring out that kind of spirit from good music. Bad people can listen to good music. THat doesn't make it bad. The origin of the musical style is still intact, no matter who uses it.

Precisely the point I and others have been making from the beginning.

Thanks for the backup.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

I have to assume you don't read my posts. I've said a dozen or more times that I prefer hymns over CCM in church and that I really can't stand modern worship "choruses".

As much as I love the music in our church, I don't go for the music. I go for the Bible study, preaching and fellowship. I reread all of your posts on this topic and have not seen your reference to any preferences toward hymns at church. You spent all of your posts defending the music of the world and CCM. I'm happy to see that you prefer hymns. WHy didn't you say this. Did you do this to deliberatly? I hope that you aren't that deceiving.

I haven't read all your posts you have ever posted on the BB, but I have reviewed this topic in this forum. I still do not see any statements made by you in favor of hymns. You have been misleading and deceptive by stating that you have and by not acknowleding my praise for you prefering hymns over CCM in the church.

It's hard to cross over different discussions, but you stated in the General Discussions,

quote by Olive:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would rather talk to someone that hasn't thrown up a wall. The Bible also state that I should put to use the pearls I have for those that would rather listen to them than tread on them. You have no respect for Bible truth, so Bye-bye.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote by Mike:
Another untrue and unfounded accusation.

You do know that the Bible says that the Lord hates a lying tongue, don't you?

I hate to break this to you but if you feel compelled to lie about me, that says a lot more about you than it does about me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have not lied in my posts, nor in the Biblical proofs I have given. If you were to study honestly and with an open heart, you would see that the links and books and Bible verses that are stated are true and irrefutible. You have patted yourself on the back with your statement, for I would not do so. If I were wrong, I would humbly state an apology and admit to my wrongs. I would not intentionally lie, nor would I back down to something that would put shame to my Lord. My life is given to Him in my actions and my words. I will to please Him, not man. And I will apologize to whomever I offend, but not because I stepped on toes, nor because I state a Biblical truth. You have chosen your own path. I have given you a truth, not a lie. You may call me a Pharisee, for I have been called that and more. but until you can know what a real Pharisee is, all the names you have are in vain. And the amazing thing about this whole

that I have just stated is that I have a on my face, and will still continue to give out the truth as He has given me the discernment to do so

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
I haven't read all your posts you have ever posted on the BB, but I have reviewed this topic in this forum. I still do not see any statements made by you in favor of hymns. You have been misleading and deceptive by stating that you have and by not acknowleding my praise for you prefering hymns over CCM in the church.

I never said that I said so in this thread. Once again, you're intentionally trying to misrepresent me.

I didn't know I was supposed to acknowledge your praise. What do you want? A cookie?

I have not lied in my posts, nor in the Biblical proofs I have given.

But you have. You've said that I don't show discernment and you've said that I have no respect for scripture. Both of which are outright lies.

If you were to study honestly and with an open heart, you would see that the links and books and Bible verses that are stated are true and irrefutible.

Not true. I (and others) have shown time and time again theproblems with these idiotic links you people insist on bringing up and the scripture you cite has nothing to do with condmning a particular type of music.

If I were wrong, I would humbly state an apology and admit to my wrongs.

But you haven't.

I would not intentionally lie, nor would I back down to something that would put shame to my Lord.

But you've done so twice.

My life is given to Him in my actions and my words.

Then act like it.

I will to please Him, not man.

He's not pleased by lying. In fact, He says He hates it.

And I will apologize to whomever I offend, but not because I stepped on toes, nor because I state a Biblical truth.

I accept your apology but your future behavior will tell whether or not you're truly repentant.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

And you responded to me

 

[Eric B]

i haven't read too much into Hitler and the third Reich. Did Hitler use the marching music and classical music for? Surely not incite violence?

You see, you can't bring out that kind of spirit from good music. Bad people can listen to good music. THat doesn't make it bad. The origin of the musical style is still intact, no matter who uses it.

Like Mike pointed out, this is our point. I brought up the Third Reich, because "associations" is one of the big charges against music styles, and just like the rhythm and drumming could be used for evil, so could the marching. This in itself does not necessarily make the music itself evil, even though, certain elements of the music might go along with the evil being promoted (i.e. voodoo and sensuality for the rhythmic drumming, and evil war for the marching); thus acknowledging that music is not really "neutral". But if one style can be removed from the evil it was once used for, then so can this other.
The only style I would think was not redeemable and had no good use would be the acid/thrash style with the hellish moaning, and other really noisy stuff. Others will say that is not bad, and I just leave that between them and God, and voice why I think it is not good, but not denounce them as deceived antichrists, as many of the critics are doing. But even that is more than just a simple "beat", which is what lies at the bottom of the critics' criterion for good or bad music.