Anything 'Like' IFB?

[Wally]

In my experience (12 years attending an IFB Church; Deacon, Adult SS Teacher, Youth Leader) I have discovered the below items are considered ‘fundamental’ and Biblical Doctrine in the IFB. The sampling is based on experience with approximately 25 IFB churches in several states. I think, as far as polls go I could use the term ‘generally’ accepted by IFB reasonably here.

Drinking
Smoking
Music
Dress
Attendance of Church functions
Tattoos

Those are NOT fundamentals of Christianity. There are several others we could argue, but these cannot be considered fundamental, feel free to disagree.

I would be fine leaving it there but unfortunately they are not only taught as fundamental but also as Biblical Doctrine from the Pulpit. I appreciate and agree with them as ‘standards’ or ‘personal convictions’ but not as Biblical Doctrine. The more I have grown in Christ the more I have found this to be true and common and, of course, the more it has come to bother me. I know, Romans 14 says to ‘receive’ the weaker brother but it really isn’t even that. It is that the weaker brother is TEACHING these things as Doctrine. Not behind the scenes, accusing others, but teaching it to others. According to Romans 14 I should not necessarily be trying to convince the weaker brother of his weakness but I have a difficult time sitting there every single service as it is insisted these things are Doctrine. I have nothing else against them, I love my Church (fellow followers of Christ) and my Pastor but I just don’t think I can abide the un-Biblical teaching much longer.

I guess my question is this, is there a Church with the same ‘standards’ as an IFB (hymns, non-gifts of the spirit, world stance, abstaining from alcohol, etc), same ACTUAL fundamental doctrine (i.e.- Salvation, Christ Deity, Biblical Baptism, etc., etc) that ALSO believes in the liberty given to us through Christ?

 

[Ziggy]

Usually called SBC churches....

 

[InTheLight]

I have discovered the below items are considered ‘fundamental’ and Biblical Doctrine in the IFB. The sampling is based on experience with approximately 25 IFB churches in several states.

Don't forget:

KJV only
Authoritarian leadership style
No clapping after a musical performance in church
Tendency toward strict educational policies, either homeschooling or IFB schools
Attending movies, theaters, plays
Long hair on men
Eating at certain restaurants
Mixed gender swimming
Open-toed shoes on women (is this still a thing?)

I guess my question is this, is there a Church with the same ‘standards’ as an IFB (hymns, non-gifts of the spirit, world stance, abstaining from alcohol, etc), same ACTUAL fundamental doctrine (i.e.- Salvation, Christ Deity, Biblical Baptism, etc., etc) that ALSO believes in the liberty given to us through Christ?

They're out there, though difficult to find that check all the boxes. The church I attend has contemporary music and teaches that abstaining from alcohol is a good thing, but not a Biblical teaching, otherwise they've got all those things you listed.

BTW, welcome to the board.

 

[Wally]

Usually called SBC churches....

Thanks Ziggy,

I was saved in an SBC Church but they changed into something I was concerned with 25 years ago.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks Ziggy,

I was saved in an SBC Church but they changed into something I was concerned with 25 years ago.

The few that I knew were much more concerned with wearing suites and bring kjv to church, and to practice "separation".

 

[Wally]

Don't forget:

KJV only
Authoritarian leadership style
No clapping after a musical performance in church
Tendency toward strict educational policies, either homeschooling or IFB schools
Attending movies, theaters, plays
Long hair on men
Eating at certain restaurants
Mixed gender swimming
Open-toed shoes on women (is this still a thing?)

They're out there, though difficult to find that check all the boxes. The church I attend has contemporary music and teaches that abstaining from alcohol is a good thing, but not a Biblical teaching, otherwise they've got all those things you listed.

BTW, welcome to the board.

Yeah, I mentioned there were other things that are 'arguable'. I felt the list I provided really weren't. I don't know, I suppose we could all disagree at some level.

I'm personally not a fan of contemporary music despite not believing that to have a Biblical argument...It's just not to my taste. I really like the preaching of the Calvary folks, but I'd have to skip the first 30 minutes of service to avoid the music . They're stance on gifts of the spirit would probably keep me away as well though. I agree with your folks on the alcohol question, stay away, but not because the Bible says to.

Thank you for the welcome. I hate the idea of Church 'shopping' and I do love these people. Maybe someone has another idea...volunteer for nursery ...?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah, I mentioned there were other things that are 'arguable'. I felt the list I provided really weren't. I don't know, I suppose we could all disagree at some level.

I'm personally not a fan of contemporary music despite not believing that to have a Biblical argument...It's just not to my taste. I really like the preaching of the Calvary folks, but I'd have to skip the first 30 minutes of service to avoid the music . They're stance on gifts of the spirit would probably keep me away as well though. I agree with your folks on the alcohol question, stay away, but not because the Bible says to.

Thank you for the welcome. I hate the idea of Church 'shopping' and I do love these people. Maybe someone has another idea...volunteer for nursery ...?

Are they a Charismatic church?

 

[Wally]

Are they a Charismatic church?

I don't think I would call them Charismatic, no. They do believe the gifts of the spirit are for today but I've been to a few and not one of them had people speaking incoherently, prophesying down the isles, playing with snakes, etc. Very calm services. Excellent expository presentations of God's Word, with piratical applications included.

You would never know they believe in the gifts for today unless that happened to be in the passages they were going through in that service.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't think I would call them Charismatic, no. They do believe the gifts of the spirit are for today but I've been to a few and not one of them had people speaking incoherently, prophesying down the isles, playing with snakes, etc. Very calm services. Excellent expository presentations of God's Word, with piratical applications included.

You would never know they believe in the gifts for today unless that happened to be in the passages they were going through in that service.

So they would be "more spirited" during the worship service?

 

[Wally]

So they would be "more spirited" during the worship service?

lol, sure. Good folks, great preaching, just disagree on some things...about like anybody I guess. Look up Mike Winger some time on YouTube to get an idea if you're curious.

 

[Shoostie]

In my experience (12 years attending an IFB Church; Deacon, Adult SS Teacher, Youth Leader) I have discovered the below items are considered ‘fundamental’ and Biblical Doctrine in the IFB. The sampling is based on experience with approximately 25 IFB churches in several states. I think, as far as polls go I could use the term ‘generally’ accepted by IFB reasonably here.

Drinking
Smoking
Music
Dress
Attendance of Church functions
Tattoos

Those are NOT fundamentals of Christianity. There are several others we could argue, but these cannot be considered fundamental, feel free to disagree.

The rules of IFB churches are sometimes contrary to the Bible, or their importance inflated. Jesus undeniably drank (contrary to those who deny it), so there's no excuse to completely prohibit drinking.

Other then the "gifts of the spirit", some small Pentecostal groups are essentially the same as IFB. There are fundamentalist denominations of all natures. There's a small fundamentalist Presbyterian domination, the American Presbyterian Church, which also believes drinking is a sin. But, if they were totally like IFB churches, they'd be IFB churches.

I completely agree with the IFB in having "rules". Christians shouldn't share the same rules and cultures as the pagans. Everyone lives by rules and culture. It's just which rules and culture do you follow, those of the church or those of pagans. The IFB rules just need a little adjusting, but maybe less adjusting that the rules most churches follow.

I agree these rules shouldn't be taken as biblical doctrine. But, at the same time, they shouldn't be dismissed as legalism.

 

[37818]

It has been my experience that standards against worldlyness was only required upon those in leadership, such as Sunday School teachers and such, not the rank and file memebership or visitors. The Biblical bases for the practice of separation from this world being taught to the whole church. And the practice of separation being enouraged toward holy living.

There are pratical limits to separation.
1 Corinthians 5:9-10, ". . . for then must ye needs go out of the world."

 

[Wally]

The rules of IFB churches are sometimes contrary to the Bible, or their importance inflated. Jesus undeniably drank (contrary to those who deny it), so there's no excuse to completely prohibit drinking.

Other then the "gifts of the spirit", some small Pentecostal groups are essentially the same as IFB. There are fundamentalist denominations of all natures. There's a small fundamentalist Presbyterian domination, the American Presbyterian Church, which also believes drinking is a sin. But, if they were totally like IFB churches, they'd be IFB churches.

I completely agree with the IFB in having "rules". Christians shouldn't share the same rules and cultures as the pagans. Everyone lives by rules and culture. It's just which rules and culture do you follow, those of the church or those of pagans. The IFB rules just need a little adjusting, but maybe less adjusting that the rules most churches follow.

I agree these rules shouldn't be taken as biblical doctrine. But, at the same time, they shouldn't be dismissed as legalism.

I know some folks that would disagree on the 'Jesus undeniably drank' piece and they have a better argument than you might think (though I think it ultimately fails).

I think you and I are on the same page about the Church having 'rules'. As I mentioned, I'm totally fine with them as 'rules', 'standards', whatever you want to call it. I like most of them and would love it if I could attend a Church that had the same standards.
It's definitely not a legalism issue, they don't require these things for salvation. It's a Romans 14 issue.

Yes, it's frustrating that after 12 years we still get nothing but milk from the preaching. No, there is no preaching on Christian Liberty...well, that isn't exactly true. For the first time in 12 years we just had a sermon on Romans 14 a couple months ago. Miraculously the weaker brother became the stronger and vise versa (It's truly amazing what a person's presupposition will cause them to see when they read God's Word). But, hey, in 12 years I haven't had a sermon on Biblical fasting either (see the above frustration about still being on milk). And, yes, it's truly annoying to sit through sermon after sermon of the Romans 14 'weaker brother' preaching about 'not eating meat' (figuratively speaking). As a person who respects God's creation of time, it is also maddening to have someone in authority that feels repeating themselves over and over and over and over just to make sure we are done 20-30 minutes 'late' every single service in order to prove he's being 'lead by the Holy Spirit'.

But I can sit through all of that and do my Bible studies for various other things while the preaching is going on. What is finally getting to me so much as to consider leaving is this insistence that these anti-liberty rants are, in fact, Biblical Doctrine. Being loose with God's Word is supposedly what Fundamentalists are all up in arms about! It's their whole purpose for existence...it's in their NAME for crying out loud. How is it acceptable to these folks to butcher God's Word like that? That is what is intolerable, this is MY GOD we're talking about, STOP misquoting Him! Mistakes are one thing, we're fallible, human...but this is intentional and is too much to sit still for.

I don't know, maybe I'm maybe I've gone over the edge with it...? This is why I would sincerely like to know about other denominations. Anyone have experience with the Cowboy Church? That's another problem, I'm in a small town area, not tons of options.

Anyway, thanks...I'll stop ranting

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I know some folks that would disagree on the 'Jesus undeniably drank' piece and they have a better argument than you might think (though I think it ultimately fails).

I think you and I are on the same page about the Church having 'rules'. As I mentioned, I'm totally fine with them as 'rules', 'standards', whatever you want to call it. I like most of them and would love it if I could attend a Church that had the same standards.
It's definitely not a legalism issue, they don't require these things for salvation. It's a Romans 14 issue.

Yes, it's frustrating that after 12 years we still get nothing but milk from the preaching. No, there is no preaching on Christian Liberty...well, that isn't exactly true. For the first time in 12 years we just had a sermon on Romans 14 a couple months ago. Miraculously the weaker brother became the stronger and vise versa (It's truly amazing what a person's presupposition will cause them to see when they read God's Word). But, hey, in 12 years I haven't had a sermon on Biblical fasting either (see the above frustration about still being on milk). And, yes, it's truly annoying to sit through sermon after sermon of the Romans 14 'weaker brother' preaching about 'not eating meat' (figuratively speaking). As a person who respects God's creation of time, it is also maddening to have someone in authority that feels repeating themselves over and over and over and over just to make sure we are done 20-30 minutes 'late' every single service in order to prove he's being 'lead by the Holy Spirit'.

But I can sit through all of that and do my Bible studies for various other things while the preaching is going on. What is finally getting to me so much as to consider leaving is this insistence that these anti-liberty rants are, in fact, Biblical Doctrine. Being loose with God's Word is supposedly what Fundamentalists are all up in arms about! It's their whole purpose for existence...it's in their NAME for crying out loud. How is it acceptable to these folks to butcher God's Word like that? That is what is intolerable, this is MY GOD we're talking about, STOP misquoting Him! Mistakes are one thing, we're fallible, human...but this is intentional and is too much to sit still for.

I don't know, maybe I'm maybe I've gone over the edge with it...? This is why I would sincerely like to know about other denominations. Anyone have experience with the Cowboy Church? That's another problem, I'm in a small town area, not tons of options.

Anyway, thanks...I'll stop ranting

As a IFB missionary being in many different churches I share your concerns. However every church is different, but sadly many spend an inordinate time preaching traditions and personal preferences as doctrine when they should be expositing the scriptures in a manner faithful to context and grammar.

 

[Wally]

As a IFB missionary being in many different churches I share your concerns. However every church is different, but sadly many spend an inordinate time preaching traditions and personal preferences as doctrine when they should be expositing the scriptures in a manner faithful to context and grammar.

Yes sir, I'm sure you are right. My 25 or so Church experiences is a rather small sampling. Unfortunately that is all I have to go on and exhausts all of the IFB Churches anywhere near me so I'm kind of stuck.

Anyway, very good to know there are folks in positions that can have some influence on those things. Thank you so much for your willingness to follow your calling...we're all praying for you.

 

[agedman]

Usually called SBC churches....

Not really. There are very FEW SBC churches that hold to traditional "standards" that the IFB hold. For example, most hold to "one wife at a time" rather than "one wife."

 

[agedman]

The rules of IFB churches are sometimes contrary to the Bible, or their importance inflated. Jesus undeniably drank (contrary to those who deny it), so there's no excuse to completely prohibit drinking.

Other then the "gifts of the spirit", some small Pentecostal groups are essentially the same as IFB. There are fundamentalist denominations of all natures. There's a small fundamentalist Presbyterian domination, the American Presbyterian Church, which also believes drinking is a sin. But, if they were totally like IFB churches, they'd be IFB churches.

I completely agree with the IFB in having "rules". Christians shouldn't share the same rules and cultures as the pagans. Everyone lives by rules and culture. It's just which rules and culture do you follow, those of the church or those of pagans. The IFB rules just need a little adjusting, but maybe less adjusting that the rules most churches follow.

I agree these rules shouldn't be taken as biblical doctrine. But, at the same time, they shouldn't be dismissed as legalism.

1) The rules are not contrary to the Bible but complimentary. That is I have yet to find a good sound biblically based thinking behind most of the rules that the IFB folks embrace.

(note: There are some IFB folks that run off the rails, just as there are some in every church grouping)

2) Small Pentecostal groups are not at all the same as typical IFB folks. The music is one area. There is more alignment with the most conservative of the Presbyterians with the IFB than generally the Pentecostal groups.

3) I do like your thoughts expressed about the need to adjust, and I do think that some IFB folks are bringing such adjustment, but time will tell how successful the outcome.

4) The zeal of the IFB church in missions, outreach, ... is second to none. As a SBC member, I am sometimes embarrassed at how little the typical assembly is engaged. They will gladly spend money, but few will give of their own living and life.

Note: We will remain disagreed when it comes to the consumption of intoxicants by my Savior. But that topic is not for this thread.

 

[Wally]

Not really. There are very FEW SBC churches that hold to traditional "standards" that the IFB hold. For example, most hold to "one wife at a time" rather than "one wife."

So, right, divorce and gambling are 2 more that I would add to my list of ‘fundamental’ ‘doctrine’ that is neither fundamental, nor Biblical doctrine. Is ‘1Ti 3:12’ referring to a divorced person or a bigamist? Let’s find the ‘second witness’ to determine for certain…can’t find one? NOT Biblical Doctrine.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

But, hey, in 12 years I haven't had a sermon on Biblical fasting either (see the above frustration about still being on milk).

….And, there it is.
Ultimately, the problem is you are being continuously fed a diet of milk or possibly worse, fast food.
MANY, even most churches can be guilty of that, but, there is a tendency of IFB churches to do that.
My general test of good preaching is, that, if he cites and reads a beginning text no more than two verses long for 90% of his sermons...
He's not feeding you the text, but a sermon he wrote for which he presses the text into service .

Some IFB churches are truly changing in that regard, and improving.
Many SBC churches are also truly good, but their preaching and teaching may be equally vapid.

Honestly, genuine Bible Preaching is hard to find regardless of what denomination you're in.
It may help to let some know the general area you live in.
Some folks around here are familiar with gazillions of churches they might suggest to you, and can recommend one to try.

I attend what is essentially an IFB church, but, they're not angry about it.
They can't claim that the Bible clearly preaches against Hoyle cards but Phase 10 and UNO is magically sanctified....They usually use a KJV but the Pastor knows Original Languages and often preaches from ESV.
Problem for a Baptist is......you gotta try every Church out individually almost.

You'll find the proper place. Hold faith brother!

 

[Wally]

Ha! 'fast food' that's good.

I know, it's tough for sure...I've actually kept some folks from leaving by explaining my take on it. Just recently as a matter of fact a couple of ladys were having a conversation out of frustration about not being fed. I said "...Yes, our Pastor IS commanded to 'feed His sheep'...but I don't recall the Bible commanding us to BE fed. We're here to serve God and to worship Him. We need to do what has for US." The point is, we have a beautiful building, a loving group of believers...what more can we ask for considering it is still run by fallible humans? I'd rather we were learning something from the preaching, believe me...but I know how rare that can be. I'm content with sitting there doing my own Bible study (though I wish it was at least timely! lol). It's really the un-Biblical content that is getting me down.

"I attend what is essentially an IFB church, but, they're not angry about it." now that's funny!

I am in southern Arizona. I'd rather not get much more detailed then that...we're pretty involved and I think if I named the town there's a good chance about anyone on here from an IFB in AZ might pick up who I am pretty quick. Not embarrassed, I just don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or, God forbid, create any division. As noted above, I don't do anything but try to keep this body together. I've never expressed these concerns with ANYONE in the Church outside of my wife. If I end up leaving (after CONSIDERABLE prayer and leaning on the Lord) it will only be after making sure everyone stays where the Lord wants them and are happy with it.