Apocalyptic as literary genre and interpreting Revelation

[kyredneck]

The final Kingdom will be in place when Jesus returns at His second coming, as he will be resurrecting the saints alive in the future time!

Second coming has occurred already, and He came into His kingdom some 20 centuries ago.

23 .... Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

It's a hard pill for you Dispies to swallow that at His final coming, at the resurrection, He has reigned already, and the kingdom has been already.

 

[Yeshua1]

Second coming has occurred already, and He came into His kingdom some 20 centuries ago.

23 .... Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

It's a hard pill for you Dispies to swallow that at His final coming, at the resurrection, He has reigned already, and the kingdom has been already.

That is heresy, to claim that His second coming has already happened!

 

[kyredneck]

That is heresy

No it's not, only in your imagination. Unorthodox compared to many maybe, but increasingly becoming less so.

to claim that His second coming has already happened!

Heresy would be to deny that this 'second coming' ever occurred:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

 

[Yeshua1]

No it's not, only in your imagination. Unorthodox compared to many maybe, but increasingly becoming less so.



Heresy would be to deny that this 'second coming' ever occurred:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

The ONLY Second Coming in the Bile has Jesus glorifing/resurrecting the Body of Christ, when had that happen?

 

[kyredneck]

The ONLY Second Coming in the Bile has Jesus glorifing/resurrecting the Body of Christ, when had that happen?

Re-read post [HASHTAG]#101[/HASHTAG], real slow.

 

[Yeshua1]

Second coming has occurred already, and He came into His kingdom some 20 centuries ago.

23 .... Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

It's a hard pill for you Dispies to swallow that at His final coming, at the resurrection, He has reigned already, and the kingdom has been already.

Again when Jesus returns, there will be the resurrection of His church, correct?

 

[kyredneck]

Again when Jesus returns, there will be the resurrection of His church, correct?

Again, re-read post [HASHTAG]#101[/HASHTAG], slower this time.

 

[Yeshua1]

You mean these people?:

9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Rev 2
9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Rev 3

Those are the Jews not saved by God, but there has always been a faithful remnant saved apart for Jesus, due to the Grace of God!

 

[kyredneck]

Those are the Jews not saved by God, but there has always been a faithful remnant saved apart for Jesus, due to the Grace of God!

Faithful to what? Saved how? Are you implying TWO ways of salvations? One for Jews and another for Gentiles?

 

[kyredneck]

Those are the Jews not saved by God, but there has always been a faithful remnant saved apart for Jesus, due to the Grace of God!

I'm sure there's a remnant in each generation that's saved from ALL false religions, and not only the false religion of Judaism.

 

[Yeshua1]

Faithful to what? Saved how? Are you implying TWO ways of salvations? One for Jews and another for Gentiles?

No, saying that scriptures support God still being fauthful to the Jewish people in the sense of saving out some in each generation! And to save all alive at His second coming!

I'm sure there's a remnant in each generation that's saved from ALL false religions, and not only the false religion of Judaism.

Jews still worship the true God, but refuse to accept Jesus as the Messiah, but the Lord still saves out some, as he is faithful to His promise to them!

 

[kyredneck]

Jews still worship the true God

If Jews get that to their credit then so do the Muslims.

 

[Covenanter]

The ONLY Second Coming in the Bile has Jesus glorifing/resurrecting the Body of Christ, when had that happen?

Can you show ONE second coming in the BIBLE ?
A search for "I will come" finds a number of comings after Jesus resurrection:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Rev. 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev. 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev. 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.​

The "comings" indicate that the risen Lord Jesus comes in various ways & times. After the resurrection appearances, he came to Saul (Acts 9), Stephen (Acts 7), John (Rev. 1)

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.​

When we are born again, we pass from death to life, as we hear & believe the voice of the Son of God. That is NOT the coming for resurrection & judgment:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

The comings that raise questions are:

Mat. 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

That is a coming in the lifetime of this generation.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

Also:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Rev 1 - all kindreds of the earth - could be translated as Mat. 24 - all the tribes of the earth - or all the tribes of the land. The context will normally indicate the meaning. As Mat. 24 specifically concerns the destruction of the temple, to take place within a generation, the AD 70 meaning is clear.

So Jesus comes to repentant sinners, by his Spirit, to give us life. He baptises us with the Holy Spirit.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.​

And he comes at our death to take us to glory:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.​

He came in AD 70 to judge the Jews who persistently rejected him.

And he will come finally for general resurrection & judgment at the last day (mistakenly, but commonly called the second coming):

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Second coming has occurred already, and He came into His kingdom some 20 centuries ago.

23 .... Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

It's a hard pill for you Dispies to swallow that at His final coming, at the resurrection, He has reigned already, and the kingdom has been already.

Yes, but it didn't start in AD 70.
Matthew 10:12. "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matthew 10:28. "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of heaven has come upon you."
Luke 23:42-43. 'Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."'
John 18:36. 'Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight.......but now My kingdom is not from here."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Can you show ONE second coming in the BIBLE ?

There is one second coming in the Bible, so called because, like the first one, it is a visible coming.
Acts 1:11.
What you didn't find in your post was any reference to a specific coming of the Lord to destroy Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:29-31 refer to the coming of the Lord Jesus at the end of time. Verses 32-35 refer to the destruction of Jerusalem because there were signs by which the disciples could tell that it was "Near- at the doors!"

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but My Father only. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is" Mark 13:32-33). This is something quite different from the destruction of Jerusalem, because there are going to be no signs- it will come like a thief in the night when men are saying, "Peace and safety" (Matthew 24:43; 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3; Revelation 15:16; 22:7 etc.).

I am glad and relieved, however, to find that you believe in a physical return of our Lord at the end of time.

 

[TCassidy]

Jews still worship the true God,

The Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I don't think so. That is the whole point of Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The Jews believed in God the Father, and believed in God the Holy Spirit, but rejected Jesus as God the Son. Paul is telling them "just one thing you lack." Accept Jesus as Lord (I.E. God the Son).

The Jews today believe the same way, they reject one third of the Godhead, God the Son.

That's not the same God.

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, but it didn't start in AD 70.
Matthew 10:12. "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force."
Matthew 10:28. "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of heaven has come upon you."
Luke 23:42-43. 'Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."'
John 18:36. 'Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight.......but now My kingdom is not from here."

???

 

[asterisktom]

I'm a little offended. Do you actually think I didn't know this or take it into account? Thanks a lot.

We're talking about AD 70 here. So once again, what persecution was historically concurrent or shortly before this? Nero' persecution of the Christians, not any persecution by Jews recorded in history. And do you really think God allowed Jerusalem to be completely destroyed 40 years later for the minor persecutions recorded in Acts?

This is probably the best you can do,but it's a weak argument. Your points are not actually descriptions of Jesus but of the happenings when he was on the cross. The descriptions of Jesus Himself are no different. Meanwhile, in Revelation the descriptions of the actual person are quite different.

It is easy to account for the differences in the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion. They all use the same name for Jesus! (Check the nose on your face. Is it plainly there?)

On the other hand, no name is given in the first Revelation account, but many are given to Jesus in the later account: Faithful, True, a name known only to Him, the Word of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.
Actually. there is identical (not almost) Greek phrasing in the descriptions of the riders, but here is all it is: "Look, a man sitting on a white horse." That's it, period. That doesn't account at all for the many, many differences in the passage, but is normal language for: a man sitting on a white horse, whoever he is.

I completely disagree. The passages are so different that anyone reading the two passages for the first time would see that the only--only--similarities are the white horse having a guy on it.

 

[asterisktom]

I'm a little offended. Do you actually think I didn't know this or take it into account? Thanks a lot.

We're talking about AD 70 here. So once again, what persecution was historically concurrent or shortly before this? Nero' persecution of the Christians, not any persecution by Jews recorded in history. And do you really think God allowed Jerusalem to be completely destroyed 40 years later for the minor persecutions recorded in Acts?

My purpose certainly is not to offend. But I see a great discrepancy in what you wrote

"There was little or no persecution of believers by Jews in AD 70."

and the many passages in the Bible that testify otherwise. And I had already admitted that the persecutions were a few years earlier than AD 70. (All of them, in fact, were such because all of the books were pre AD 70 IMV.)

Your "We're talking about AD 70" comment is not to the point. Are you saying that the Jews of AD 70 rehabilitated themselves? Kinder toward Christians, more responsive to God's message? If not - and the great burden id on you to prove otherwise - we are speaking of the same leopards with the same unchanged spots. 20 Years changed nothing, other than they were "filli[ng] up the iniquity of [their] fathers".

Minor persecutions? We have the stoning death of Stephen, the attempted murder (several times)of Paul, the death of Antipas. There are more incidents of persecution in the Bible. Add to these the violence to Christians that Josephus records (the killing of James the Just, etc.) and we have a pretty damning record.

But, strictly speaking, the underlying reason for the destruction of Jerusalem, (the taking away of their vineyard, their kingdom) was their obdurate and unremitting resistance to God. Their persecution of Christians was just an outgrowth of that.

Stephen had said to them "“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you." Acts 7:51

Yes, he said that many years before. But how had any of that changed? It has always been the same. Their guilt has only grown worse because of the ever-witness accruing against them. Till finally their cup was full.

I don't see how any of this should be controversial.

 

[John of Japan]

My purpose certainly is not to offend. But I see a great discrepancy in what you wrote

"There was little or no persecution of believers by Jews in AD 70."

and the many passages in the Bible that testify otherwise. And I had already admitted that the persecutions were a few years earlier than AD 70. (All of them, in fact, were such because all of the books were pre AD 70 IMV.)

Your "We're talking about AD 70" comment is not to the point. Are you saying that the Jews of AD 70 rehabilitated themselves? Kinder toward Christians, more responsive to God's message? If not - and the great burden id on you to prove otherwise - we are speaking of the same leopards with the same unchanged spots. 20 Years changed nothing, other than they were "filli[ng] up the iniquity of [their] fathers".

Minor persecutions? We have the stoning death of Stephen, the attempted murder (several times)of Paul, the death of Antipas. There are more incidents of persecution in the Bible. Add to these the violence to Christians that Josephus records (the killing of James the Just, etc.) and we have a pretty damning record.

But, strictly speaking, the underlying reason for the destruction of Jerusalem, (the taking away of their vineyard, their kingdom) was their obdurate and unremitting resistance to God. Their persecution of Christians was just an outgrowth of that.

Stephen had said to them "“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you." Acts 7:51

Yes, he said that many years before. But how had any of that changed? It has always been the same. Their guilt has only grown worse because of the ever-witness accruing against them. Till finally their cup was full.

I don't see how any of this should be controversial.

All of this is meaningless if you can't answer my points: I'll reiterate and clarify.

(1) Where is the historical record of persecution of Jews by Christians after the book of Acts? (I'll grant you James the Just, but that hardly deserves the destruction of Jerusalem.)
(2) If there is no such record, why would God destroy Jerusalem for the persecution recorded in the NT? (No one but Stephen was killed for Christ in the NT.) I think your point is insufficient here, since you give nothing but your opinion that their stubbornness, etc., was the reason. Give Scripture for that point, not just Stephen's statement, which promises no judgment.
(3) The persecution of Christians by Nero was far greater than any by the Jews, even that mentioned in the NT. Why did God not destroy Rome then or judge the Romans in some other way?