Featured Apocalyptic as literary genre and interpreting Revelation

God knows. Why do you need a further historical record? The Jewish leaders didn't suddenly repent & turn to God after their assault on Paul.

In any case, AD 70 was prophesied by Jesus in his Olivet prophecy. Moses prophesied judgment on those who refused to hear their Messiah. (Deut. 18:18-19, quoted by Peter in Acts 3)

You assert - (No one but Stephen was killed for Christ in the NT.)

Acts 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. 2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. ​

The judgment was not just for that persecution, but for their rejection of Messiah, & the Apostles, & prophets down the centuries:

Mat. 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.​

I suggest we can be confident that Jesus' prophecy of persecution would be fulfilled by the Jewish leaders.

The Israelites & Jews had covenant promises from God; Nero had no such promises. And he did not go unpunished.

Hebrews is helpful -

10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus have lived with them for 33 years, & taught them for 3. They had received knowedge of the truth direct from their Messiah. then from the Apostles.

 

I need a further historical record because we must deal with facts. I agree that AD 70 was prophesied by Jesus in his Olivet Discourse; just not that everything in the discourse was fulfilled in AD 70.

Thank you for the correction. It doesn't completely answer my point, though. (Just wondering, are you a full preterist or just partial?)

I think we're getting too far from the OP now, and I claim partial blame. Apologies to Jon, the OP author.

The very existence of the book of Hebrews says to me that God still loved the Jews in AD 70. And, "So perhaps we should think of a date near or even during the war of A.D. 66-70)" (Hebrews in EBC, by Leon Morris, p. 8). The destruction of Jerusalem was in punishment, certainly, but also in love to draw the Jews to Himself. It may have been for their persecution, but at this point I think we are well away from the OP about Revelation, so I'm going to stop here.

And many thousands of Jews became believers.

 

They worship in ignorance the true God, but still blind to jesus as Messiah, but Islam worships false god altogether!

 

John/peter/paul ALL told us there that there was to be a Second Coming, and when that happened, all saved would be resurrected up with glorified bodies, so when has that happened?

 

How so? the Jews were under the Old Covenant, salvation was of the Jews, so they had the real God, and still call on Him, but deny jesus as the Messiah, while islam from the starth had a false god!

 

Jesus Himself stated that he was addressing what would happen soon, and what was to come in the Future... How can ANY see the Second Coming as Ad 70, when there was NO resurrection of the saints alive/dead at that time?

 

Seven pages to date in search of a "literary genre." I think we've seen more heat than light.
I submit that if we have a problem understanding Scripture as Scripture, & instead seek to see a "genre" as key to understanding, then the understanding we come to is without a proper basis.

Good point, Martin. A careful study with attention to cross references in the OC & NC Scriptures will yield understanding, but caution in interpreting is advisable. I preached through Revelation from the late date, amil understanding in the 90s, but further study changed that understanding.

Amil is very helpful, in understanding the present time - as Christians down the ages have found as they see themselves in the comparable situations. However that approach fails to address the Revelation as specific prophecy.

 

At least A Mil can be based upon scripture, but pretierism cannot be found in the scriptures, as it denies the essential truth of the future Second coming !

 

Revelations written ~ in apocalyptic form as a literary genre? Not sure the intent of what that is supposed to mean.

I am not a fan of descriptions that leave the intent wavering to an individuals digression.

IMO when a reader of scripture can preface "their" understanding with such things as writing "style" or
flowery words such as "literal, not literal, figurative, etc. that the next thing they say IS their opinion of their minds understanding they are peddling as fact.

Scripture itself reveals very basic knowledge on the very basics of who, what, when, why and where.
Paramount basic is;
Faith IN God.
Trust IN God.
Gods Word is always Truth.
God Approved all Scripture with the Power of His own Spirit Breath.

"knowledge" is revealed for everyone.
"understanding" is revealed FOR the saved and born again, WHO seek.

Scripture fulfilled IS fulfilled, whether by God whose Word speaks it, and whose Power effects it, or by a man WHO believes, trusts and submits to it.

Only God gives one "His Understanding".

Human mindful "understanding", is carnal, and irrelevant in Spiritual matters.

Scripture; whether "called" pros, poetry, parable, proverb, prophecy, story, etc. It is all truth.

Revelations is exactly what the title of the book implies.

Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:1 tells you straight off, it's a revealing of what SHALL come to pass. Also WHO is entitled to the knowledge AND understanding. ie Servants of Jesus Christ.

IF that is you; then the process is to read, trust, study it. When you are faced with NOT understanding something, it is THEN, you ask God Himself for His "understanding".

Point being, IF you ARE a servant, and IF you ARE diligently reading and trusting; God IS faithful to give you when you seek Him and ASK.

Job.28

1. [12] But where shall wisdom be found? and where is the place of understanding?

Matt.7

1. [7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
2. [8] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
   
   Luke.24
   1. [45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
   
   Matt.16
   1. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
   
   

 

Why? My point being; ALL Scripture is true, regardless of what genre it is revealed.

The context is important, and the understanding is paramount.

Pss.22
[1] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

This ^ is a question. Why is one questioning God not responding on "their" time frame? God assists and reveals when it is best for the one asking. (Trust God) This verse is not about a man being "forsaken" (as God has left him), but rather the question of a man expressing impatience.

Read Pss 22 1-21 poor me, God you have not acted quickly enough.

Read Pss 22:22 [22] I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

See the context? Give me Oh God, where are you Oh God......answer me Oh God.....and THEN....
I will openly declare you Oh God.

Where is the faith to openly declare God to begin with?

Pss 22: [25] My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation:

Humm, Why "shall be"? Why not "has been"?

That it is Hebrew language, important to me? No
That it is Poetry, important to me? No.
That information be considered within context, important to me? Yes.

I have fulfilled scriptures in submitting unto the Lord.
He is faithful and shall NEVER leave me. Period.
I don't challenge His time-frame. I Trust Him.
He does not "speak" to me in Hebrew, English, Poetry, etc. so those things mean nothing to me.
We communicate and fellowship His Spirit to my spirit and visa versa, thus what philosophers like to direct attention to, is of no consideration to me.

Trust what you read or be influenced by what others philosophize that you should consider what they think.

 

The entire dispensational early church were against a main tenet of Marcionism, viz. the belief that the OT God was a different God than the God of the New Testament as revealed in Christ.

"And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works" - Justin Martyr, First Apology, Ch. XXXVI

"Marcion of Pontus...advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself. But [Marcion's doctrine is that] Jesus being derived from that father who is above the God that made the world, and coming into Judaea ..., was manifested in the form of a man to those who were in Judaea, abolishing the prophets and the law, and all the works of that God" - Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chap. XXVII.​

Therefore, if you are claiming that the Jews worship a different God today, you are, historically, outside of dispensational theology and also outside of orthodoxy.

In the Old Testament, Jabez, a Gentile who had not known of the Israelitish religion, prayed to God and God heard him and gave him his desire. This proves that God is Jabez's God and Israel's God too, that is to say, the same God. In Romans 10:12, 19-21, Paul is saying that God is doing the opposite now between the Jews and the Gentiles.

NET
12For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him.
...
19But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” 20And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me.” 21But about Israel he says, “All day long I held out my hands to this disobedient and stubborn people!”​

Romans 11:11 says that Israel has only stumbled and has not fallen. They still worship the same God we do, but their zeal of God is not according to knowledge (Rom. 10:1-2). The Jews, as Jabez in the OT, can receive good gifts from God and thus have him as their Father while not being saved.

 

That's funny. Those who use straw man fallacies are, according to common sense and logic and coherence, confused.

 

Did you know that even enemies of dispensational theology (like Whitby) have admitted that the entire early church believed that anyone who was not a dispensationalist was a heretic?

 

Read my post instead of making straw man fallacies and you will have your answer. No jokes your answer is right in there.